Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:That wall was not very big. I'm sure this is something Videl can do.
That was the same sized wall 21st WMAT Goku kicked down. Videl... destroy a wall with a single kick? If the best her father could pull off were break a several tiles, I don't think Videl would be capable of breaking three times that amount of tiles stacked, let alone a solid wall.
Since that was the 1st tournament shown, how could we be sure someone weaker than 21st WMAT Goku couldn't kick down the wall?
But I do agree about Hercule, even with his filler feats that's not much.
"Lord Beers, what are those?? Do they taste like root beer?" ~ Goku
Mystic Gohan VS Androids Saga SSJ Vegito
[That would be "Super" Vegeta and a healthy SSJ Goku, pre-ROSAT]
Cell Jr. VS Cell Games Piccolo and MSSJ/FPSSJ Goku (Post Cell Fight)
[Manga Cell Jr., Goku, Piccolo. Goku was pretty helpless against a Cell Jr after his fight with Cell. Piccolo couldn't truly hold his own against a Cell Jr either. But could the two of them together actually beat one? The Cell Jr. won't play around.]
Mr. Popo VS 23rd WMAT Tien
[No tribeams]
Buu Saga SSJ2 Gohan (Post Z Sword Training) VS Cell Games Enraged SSJ2 Gohan
[Gohan won't actually bring the sword to the fight]
Cui VS Dr. Wheelo
[Ignore the movie pamphlet power level]
former versus:
Spoiler:
Black Smoke Shenron VS Omega Shenron
Mystic Gohan VS Kamiccolo + Buu Saga Vegeta Potara Fusion, Buu Saga Goku + Tien Potara Fusion, and Kibito Kai
[They fuse while at base. "Vegiccolo" turns SSJ2 and "Tienku" turns SSJ3 afterwards. No paralysis magic.]
5th Form Cooler VS Android 14
21st WMAT Jackie Chun VS Nam, Giran, and Bacterian
[No Kamehameha]
SSJ Goku Jr. VS King Piccolo (Youth Restored)
[No flying]
Pamput VS Ranfan
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:Since that was the 1st tournament shown, how could we be sure someone weaker than 21st WMAT Goku couldn't kick down the wall?
Well, Roshi, Krillin, and Yamcha should be able to. It just seems like a very impressive feat since it made Giran give up immediately after seeing it.
Mystic Gohan VS Androids Saga SSJ Vegito
[That would be "Super" Vegeta and a healthy SSJ Goku, pre-ROSAT]
Cell Jr. VS Cell Games Piccolo and MSSJ/FPSSJ Goku (Post Cell Fight)
[Manga Cell Jr., Goku, Piccolo. Goku was pretty helpless against a Cell Jr after his fight with Cell. Piccolo couldn't truly hold his own against a Cell Jr either. But could the two of them together actually beat one? The Cell Jr. won't play around.]
Mr. Popo VS 23rd WMAT Tenshinhan
[No tribeams]
Buu Saga SSJ2 Gohan (Post Z Sword Training) VS Cell Games Enraged SSJ2 Gohan
[Gohan won't actually bring the sword to the fight]
Cui VS Dr. Wheelo
[Ignore the movie pamphlet power level]
I think Vegetto takes this easily. I would estimate that Vegeta and Goku increased their base power from the Android arc to the Buu arc by no more than four times, probably less. So Android arc Vegetto would be at minimum a fourth as powerful as Buu arc Vegetto. Buu arc Vegetto dominated Buuhan, who was much stronger than Buutenks, who was stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Based on this, I would estimate Ultimate Gohan to be a fifth as strong as Buu arc Vegetto at the very generous absolute maximum. Minimum 1/4 > Maximum 1/5.
Goku and Piccolo take this with a bit of difficulty, but not too much.
(Edit: Forgot this match) Popo beats Tenshinhan easily. Tenshinhan hasn't received the training Goku had that allowed him to even hit Popo.
Z Sword Gohan should take this, but it is a very difficult fight.
Cui should take this. I put Wheelo lower than Saiyan Vegeta. Cui is equal to or slightly stronger than Saiyan arc Vegeta.
Last edited by Super SaiyaJon on Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kakacarrottop wrote:
That's the problem with the "Dragon Ball" fanbase, it's too divided. There's "FUNimation fanboys", "Kai fanboys", "Ocean fanboys", "Japanese fanboys", we need to stop attacking each other and realize we're all fans of the same thing.
Saiga wrote:Gandalf: Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?
Mystic Gohan VS Androids Saga SSJ Vegito
[That would be "Super" Vegeta and a healthy SSJ Goku, pre-ROSAT]
Cell Jr. VS Cell Games Piccolo and MSSJ/FPSSJ Goku (Post Cell Fight)
[Manga Cell Jr., Goku, Piccolo. Goku was pretty helpless against a Cell Jr after his fight with Cell. Piccolo couldn't truly hold his own against a Cell Jr either. But could the two of them together actually beat one? The Cell Jr. won't play around.]
Mr. Popo VS 23rd WMAT Tenshinhan
[No tribeams]
Buu Saga SSJ2 Gohan (Post Z Sword Training) VS Cell Games Enraged SSJ2 Gohan
[Gohan won't actually bring the sword to the fight]
Cui VS Dr. Wheelo
[Ignore the movie pamphlet power level]
a) Vegetto wins with difficulty.
b) Cell Jr. wins still. Goku is in no condition to help.
c) Mr. Popo beats Tenshinhan worse than Goku when they fought.
Mystic Gohan VS Androids Saga SSJ Vegito
[That would be "Super" Vegeta and a healthy SSJ Goku, pre-ROSAT]
Gohan destroys him. The potara boost would be less than it was in the Boo arc and it's using far weaker components
Cell Jr. VS Cell Games Piccolo and MSSJ/FPSSJ Goku (Post Cell Fight)
[Manga Cell Jr., Goku, Piccolo. Goku was pretty helpless against a Cell Jr after his fight with Cell. Piccolo couldn't truly hold his own against a Cell Jr either. But could the two of them together actually beat one? The Cell Jr. won't play around.]
The Cell Jr. still wins.
Buu Saga SSJ2 Gohan (Post Z Sword Training) VS Cell Games Enraged SSJ2 Gohan
[Gohan won't actually bring the sword to the fight]
Mystic Gohan VS Androids Saga SSJ Vegito
[That would be "Super" Vegeta and a healthy SSJ Goku, pre-ROSAT]
Cell Jr. VS Cell Games Piccolo and MSSJ/FPSSJ Goku (Post Cell Fight)
[Manga Cell Jr., Goku, Piccolo. Goku was pretty helpless against a Cell Jr after his fight with Cell. Piccolo couldn't truly hold his own against a Cell Jr either. But could the two of them together actually beat one? The Cell Jr. won't play around.]
Mr. Popo VS 23rd WMAT Tenshinhan
[No tribeams]
Buu Saga SSJ2 Gohan (Post Z Sword Training) VS Cell Games Enraged SSJ2 Gohan
[Gohan won't actually bring the sword to the fight]
Cui VS Dr. Wheelo
[Ignore the movie pamphlet power level]
Gohan. I don't think Vegetto was really that much stronger than Buu, and an Android arc Vegetto will be much, much weaker than a Buu arc one.
Neither of them could do a damn thing against a Cell Jr. They still lose.
Popo... probably. I'm not actually sure when it comes to 23rd Budokai Tenshinhan. His power level given at the beginning of the manga seems to contradict his performance there.
Z-sword Gohan. Base Z-sword Gohan was shown to be stronger than base Goku, and SS2 Goku > SS2 kid Gohan.
Wheelo stomps. Goku was probably stronger in this movie, and Wheelo was stated to be powering up after Goku blasted him with KK x4.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Oh what's contradictory with 23rd WMAT Tien's power level?
A majority has been answering that the Manga non-playful Cell Jr. would win. Now what if Mangas Tien, Krillin, and Yamcha helped Piccolo and post-Cell fight MSSJ/FPSSJ tired Goku?
Angelus wrote:Oh what's contradictory with 23rd WMAT Tenshinhan's power level?
A majority has been answering that the Manga non-playful Cell Jr. would win. Now what if Mangas Tenshinhan, Krillin, and Yamcha helped Piccolo and post-Cell fight MSSJ/FPSSJ tired Goku?
I personally don't see anything wrong with his power level.
Piccolo is the only one who can stand up to a CellJr. of all of them and he still gets put down eventually. The rest make no actual difference.
Angelus wrote:Oh what's contradictory with 23rd WMAT Tenshinhan's power level?
A majority has been answering that the Manga non-playful Cell Jr. would win. Now what if Mangas Tenshinhan, Krillin, and Yamcha helped Piccolo and post-Cell fight MSSJ/FPSSJ tired Goku?
He fights weighted Goku fairly well at the 23rd Budokai, but the BOZ power levels have him as way lower than weighted Goku.
The humans make no difference.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
In the 23rd Budokai, I'm willing to bet Tien can take Popo. He was equal to weighted Goku and Piccolo, which is saying a lot. Keep in mind, this Goku has already long surpassed Popo before this tournament began.
"Lord Beers, what are those?? Do they taste like root beer?" ~ Goku
Angelus wrote:Oh what's contradictory with 23rd WMAT Tenshinhan's power level?
A majority has been answering that the Manga non-playful Cell Jr. would win. Now what if Mangas Tenshinhan, Krillin, and Yamcha helped Piccolo and post-Cell fight MSSJ/FPSSJ tired Goku?
He fights weighted Goku fairly well at the 23rd Budokai, but the BOZ power levels have him as way lower than weighted Goku.
Angelus wrote:Oh what's contradictory with 23rd WMAT Tenshinhan's power level?
A majority has been answering that the Manga non-playful Cell Jr. would win. Now what if Mangas Tenshinhan, Krillin, and Yamcha helped Piccolo and post-Cell fight MSSJ/FPSSJ tired Goku?
He fights weighted Goku fairly well at the 23rd Budokai, but the BOZ power levels have him as way lower than weighted Goku.
The humans make no difference.
But we don't know weighted Goku's BP.
During the Raditz fight, taking off weights added 25% to both Goku's and Piccolo's BP. So theoretically, if Goku wore the same weights in the 23rd Budokai, just subtract that much out of Goku's full power. Like if Goku was 300 when he fought Piccolo in the ring, he should be 240 with his fight with Tien.
"Lord Beers, what are those?? Do they taste like root beer?" ~ Goku
1.) Meta Coola (hax) vs. Perfect Cell
2.) SSJ Gotenks pre vs. SSJ 3 Goku
3.) SSJ 3 Gogeta vs. Gotenks-Boo (no blowing himself up)
4.) 50% MSSJ Goku vs. SSJ Gr 3 Trunks (both @ equal speed and no energy drain)
5.) Base Vegetto vs. Gohan-Boo (no blowing himself up)
Last edited by SSJ2FutureGohan on Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Meta Coola (hax) vs. Perfect Cell
Hax? Assuming you have both in the same level, Cell can open holes in Coola and obliterate him with a bunch of ki blasts. In overall, I see Meta Coola as strong as No. 17 at best. Kamiccolo could beat him with high-difficulty.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Meta Coola (hax) vs. Perfect Cell
Hax? Assuming you have both in the same level, Cell can open holes in Coola and obliterate him with a bunch of ki blasts. In overall, I see Meta Coola as strong as No. 17 at best. Kamiccolo could beat him with high-difficulty.
I think he might mean the endless hoards of Meta Coola. In which case...I don't know who would win...Can Cell tire? Cause if so I say Meta Coola just by attrition. If Cell doesn't tire...I think it would just be a battle that goes on forever.
Going on hiatus. Too much stuff in RL to deal with for me to keep up with posts here for now. Was fun, hope you all have a nice day and future! Volt signing off.
With the many years on the net I've spent...I've learned being polite takes you much further then being a dick. So...lesson here is! Don't be a dick!
"Fill up your stomach and your happiness! " - Cure Honey
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Meta Coola (hax) vs. Perfect Cell
Hax? Assuming you have both in the same level, Cell can open holes in Coola and obliterate him with a bunch of ki blasts. In overall, I see Meta Coola as strong as No. 17 at best. Kamiccolo could beat him with high-difficulty.
Final form Coola is waaay stronger than No. 17, and Meta-Coola is even stronger than Final Form Coola
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:1.) Meta Coola (hax) vs. Perfect Cell
2.) SSJ Gotenks pre vs. SSJ 3 Goku
3.) SSJ 3 Gogeta vs. Gotenks-Boo (no blowing himself up)
4.) 50% MSSJ Goku vs. SSJ Gr 3 Trunks (both @ equal speed and no energy drain)
5.) Base Vegetto vs. Gohan-Boo (no blowing himself up)
Meta Coola, mostly cause of my previous statement.
That's tough but I think I'll throw my money on Goku in this fight.
Gogeta. Just...hands down Gogeta.
Hmmmmm Goku again, I just think he has better energy control and agility here.
Didn't they do this? I remember Vegito had to power up to SSJ in order to deal with Buuhan.
Going on hiatus. Too much stuff in RL to deal with for me to keep up with posts here for now. Was fun, hope you all have a nice day and future! Volt signing off.
With the many years on the net I've spent...I've learned being polite takes you much further then being a dick. So...lesson here is! Don't be a dick!
"Fill up your stomach and your happiness! " - Cure Honey
voltlunok wrote: Didn't they do this? I remember Vegito had to power up to SSJ in order to deal with Buuhan.
Actually, Vegetto didn't even end to become a SSJ. Old Kai stated in the manga the Vegetto in his base could annihilate Buuhan. Vegetto just transformed for shits and giggles.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Lord Beerus wrote:Actually, Vegetto didn't even end to become a SSJ. Old Kai stated in the manga the Vegetto in his base could annihilate Buuhan. Vegetto just transformed for shits and giggles.
Old Kaioshin said Gokhan could Gotenks-Boo. Base Vegetto's strenght is still ambiguous, as he's never fought outside of anime filler.
Upon popping the disc with said episode in and checking, yeah he just transformed for the giggles. Though I still wonder if the 'doing it for giggles' thing was a front for a need to transform. Oh well.
Going on hiatus. Too much stuff in RL to deal with for me to keep up with posts here for now. Was fun, hope you all have a nice day and future! Volt signing off.
With the many years on the net I've spent...I've learned being polite takes you much further then being a dick. So...lesson here is! Don't be a dick!
"Fill up your stomach and your happiness! " - Cure Honey
