Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[xmysticgohanx]

I reread it and I forgot Mighty Mask didn't technically fight as an SSJ. So basically we have Vegeta's statement on not needing SSJ to win the tournament (could be a boast), the Daizenshuu entry, and Kaioshin being scared of Babidi's minions vs Beerus' statement (Goku could've been suppressed). I'm inclined to believe Base Goten > #18. The Daizenshuu is secondary canon because it's a guidebook but since nothing in the primary canon contradicts it, Beerus could've easily sensed a suppressed Goku, it works.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I reread it and I forgot Mighty Mask didn't technically fight as an SSJ. So basically we have Vegeta's statement on not needing SSJ to win the tournament (could be a boast), the Daizenshuu entry, and Kaioshin being scared of Babidi's minions vs Beerus' statement (Goku could've been suppressed). I'm inclined to believe Base Goten > #18. The Daizenshuu is secondary canon because it's a guidebook but since nothing in the primary canon contradicts it, Beerus could've easily sensed a suppressed Goku, it works.

I agree. People throw away EVERY single implication from the manga just for Beerus' statement, yet just brush away other statements in the movie like Bulma's or Mai's age.
People even start making things up like 18 was suppressed (I still haven't seen one person to this day prove 18 can even suppress), even after watching her slam them into the ground and shoot a KI BLAST at them! Yeah! Really holding back!

[Kamiccolo9]

I reread it and I forgot Mighty Mask didn't technically fight as an SSJ. So basically we have Vegeta's statement on not needing SSJ to win the tournament (could be a boast), the Daizenshuu entry, and Kaioshin being scared of Babidi's minions vs Beerus' statement (Goku could've been suppressed). I'm inclined to believe Base Goten > #18. The Daizenshuu is secondary canon because it's a guidebook but since nothing in the primary canon contradicts it, Beerus could've easily sensed a suppressed Goku, it works.

I agree. People throw away EVERY single implication from the manga just for Beerus' statement, yet just brush away other statements in the movie like Bulma's or Mai's age.
People even start making things up like 18 was suppressed (I still haven't seen one person to this day prove 18 can even suppress), even after watching her slam them into the ground and shoot a KI BLAST at them! Yeah! Really holding back!

18 can open doors and have sex without blowing up everything around her. Of course she can suppress her power.

[Low Tone G]

I reread it and I forgot Mighty Mask didn't technically fight as an SSJ. So basically we have Vegeta's statement on not needing SSJ to win the tournament (could be a boast), the Daizenshuu entry, and Kaioshin being scared of Babidi's minions vs Beerus' statement (Goku could've been suppressed). I'm inclined to believe Base Goten > #18. The Daizenshuu is secondary canon because it's a guidebook but since nothing in the primary canon contradicts it, Beerus could've easily sensed a suppressed Goku, it works.

I agree. People throw away EVERY single implication from the manga just for Beerus' statement, yet just brush away other statements in the movie like Bulma's or Mai's age.
People even start making things up like 18 was suppressed (I still haven't seen one person to this day prove 18 can even suppress), even after watching her slam them into the ground and shoot a KI BLAST at them! Yeah! Really holding back!

18 can open doors and have sex without blowing up everything around her. Of course she can suppress her power.

That made my day! So do you think Krillin is that good lover?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Holding back/using effort =/= suppressing

[Kamiccolo9]

Holding back/using effort =/= suppressing

That is literally exactly what it means.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

No, holding back is not putting effort into something, you don't have ki you can suppress, but you can lightly punch something

Suppressing is lowering ki output

If 18 can easily suppress, why did she have trouble lightly punching the punching machine or whatever at the tournament?

Because she didn't know how hard to punch it.

Goku and Vegeta and Gohan had no trouble because they can suppress, 18 just had to guess how lightly to punch it

[Kamiccolo9]

No, holding back is not putting effort into something, you don't have ki you can suppress, but you can lightly punch something

Suppressing is lowering ki output

If 18 can easily suppress, why did she have trouble lightly punching the punching machine or whatever at the tournament?

Because she didn't know how hard to punch it.

Goku and Vegeta and Gohan had no trouble because they can suppress, 18 just had to guess how lightly to punch it

I don't think you know what "suppress" means.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Yeah, I actually do.

Suppressing ki is lowering ki output.

Like when imperfect Cell suppresses his ki so that z-fighters can find him.

But since you're apparently such an expert, why don't you explain?

[Kamiccolo9]

Yeah, I actually do.

Suppressing ki is lowering ki output.

Like when imperfect Cell suppresses his ki so that z-fighters can find him.

But since you're apparently such an expert, why don't you explain?

To suppress literally means, in this kind of context, to hold back or push down. There is no difference between suppressing or holding back.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Not really.

Kuririn would've told her to suppress her ki. He told her to hold back, to which she shows trouble. If she could suppress, she could've suppressed down to human level and not accidentally destroy the punching machine, but since she couldn't, she had to just lightly punch it and hope it wasn't too strong.

If 18 could suppress ki, why was she the only one who had trouble with the machine ?

[Kamiccolo9]

Not really.

Kuririn would've told her to suppress her ki. He told her to hold back, to which she shows trouble. If she could suppress, she could've suppressed down to human level and not accidentally destroy the punching machine, but since she couldn't, she had to just lightly punch it and hope it wasn't too strong.

If 18 could suppress ki, why was she the only one who had trouble with the machine ?

If she couldn't suppress ki, then why can she punch people in the tournament without killing them? How can she open doors without breaking them?

You're making up arbitrary distinctions where none exist due to not knowing, or caring, what the word means. What I gave you is the literal definition of "suppression," for this kind of context.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Because, again, it's the amount of effort she uses.

Try to think of when you close a door, and when you slam a door. When you close a door, you don't use your full effort, just enough newtons that the door closes. When you slam it, you use your full effort, or more muscle.

Same thing applies here, she didn't use full force punching the humans, just light enough to knock them out of the ring.

And literal definitions don't always apply in DB.

No one's ever been told to 'hold back' their ki, but the term 'suppression'/suppress is always used when referring to ki.

You never answered my question either: Why did 18 have trouble with the punching machine while everyone else didn't?

[Kamiccolo9]

Because, again, it's the amount of effort she uses.

Try to think of when you close a door, and when you slam a door. When you close a door, you don't use your full effort, just enough newtons that the door closes. When you slam it, you use your full effort, or more muscle.

Same thing applies here, she didn't use full force punching the humans, just light enough to knock them out of the ring.

And literal definitions don't always apply in DB.

No one's ever been told to 'hold back' their ki, but the term 'suppression'/suppress is always used when referring to ki.

You never answered my question either: Why did 18 have trouble with the punching machine while everyone else didn't?

It's the exact same thing. You don't seem to understand that.

They've had more practice then her, she didn't care enough, or something. It doesn't matter, since we see her restraining herself just fine later. When you start making up definitions to suit your argument, your argument falls apart.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Maybe it's not the same thing? Or you're the one who doesn't understand?

I'm not making anything up.

Suppressing means you're actively lowering your power/ki to a certain level. Holding back doesn't require the lowering of your power level, just less effort behind the attacks.

Suppression can always fall under holding back, but holding back doesn't always fall under suppression. They can be very similar, but they're different.

Cell was "holding back" against Goku but that's because he was "suppressing."

Super Saiyan 2 Gohan wasn't suppressing, but he was holding back to prolong Cell's suffering. He wasn't putting all of the power into his attacks that he could have.

1% Freeza was fighting evenly with Goku because he was "suppressed".

50% Freeza was holding back on Goku and punching him w/o killing him, but he wasn't "suppressed".

Nothing says 18 didn't care, Kuririn told her "I told you to take it easy" and she says "quiet, it's not that easy!"

When you can find the quote where someone was told to "hold back" instead of "suppress" anywhere else in DB, then I'll agree.

[Skar]

I agree. People throw away EVERY single implication from the manga just for Beerus' statement, yet just brush away other statements in the movie like Bulma's or Mai's age.

That's sorta how most evidence works. A direct statement will always count for better evidence than an implication especially since every implication could be interpreted to fit with that direct statement. I tried addressing that in one of my previous comments. I'm not sure of the forum rules but I always figured if someone ignores your comment they either agree with you or don't have anything else to say. That's why I always acknowledge someone's comment so I don't leave them hanging. If you know your comment will get ignored every time you bring up a good point then that defeats the purpose of a discussion. I'm sure you don't agree with the logic that direct statement > implication so I'm going to agree to disagree with you and go our separate ways.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I would take the comment of base Goku < Freeza if the comment was original manga. I'm not saying something like BoG isn't canon or dis-crediting it's continuity in the manga, but the comments on things like Bulma's age (the whole lying excuse doesn't match up w/ the context) and Mai's age, show me that AT's memory is fuzzy. And if I don't take the comments on Bulma/Mai's age seriously, I won't cherry pick and listen to only Beerus over those two. People like to come up with in-universe things like Bulma lying about her age, so I like to think of one like Goku being suppressed. There's a lot in the manga suggesting to me base Saiyans > Freeza. And to get base saiyans that low by the time in the series, you really have to downgrade some really big power ups. It's just my interpretation, and I'm not calling it fact.

[Hugo Boss]

I reread it and I forgot Mighty Mask didn't technically fight as an SSJ.

They fought as Super Saiyans as well, No. 18 used that in her favor by calling their names and forcing them to dodge her kienzan. That's how she beat Mighty Mask. Trunks and Goten in person would be a different story.

So basically we have Vegeta's statement on not needing SSJ to win the tournament (could be a boast), the Daizenshuu entry, and Kaioshin being scared of Babidi's minions vs Beerus' statement (Goku could've been suppressed). I'm inclined to believe Base Goten > #18. The Daizenshuu is secondary canon because it's a guidebook but since nothing in the primary canon contradicts it, Beerus could've easily sensed a suppressed Goku, it works.

• If for some reason Vegeta would end up fighting with Piccolo or No. 18, he would just transform if he felt the need, just like the kids did in a brief moment. Gohan pretty much didn't follow his own suggestion when instigated by Kibito, someone he thought he couldn't beat while covering his power. Or you can believe Base Vegeta is at least equal to his Cell Games-[SS]self.
• Kaioshin was just acting as the situation needed, being cautious and all, the Saiyans that were acting odd. None knew how powerful were the Babidi's minions, the Saiyans just assumed they were Cell's level at best. Still seeing movements could be a way to explain how the Saiyans or Piccolo base their assumptions.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

They fought as Super Saiyans as well

Where?

Spoiler:

Dodging a ki blast doesn't make you on par with someone

If for some reason Vegeta would end up fighting with Piccolo or No. 18, he would just transform if he felt the need

assumption, and still uncontradicted on Vegeta's part.

just like the kids did in a brief moment.

On accident

Gohan pretty much didn't follow his own suggestion when instigated by Kibito

Because Piccolo told him to.

[Skar]

I would take the comment of base Goku < Freeza if the comment was original manga. I'm not saying something like BoG isn't canon or dis-crediting it's continuity in the manga, but the comments on things like Bulma's age (the whole lying excuse doesn't match up w/ the context) and Mai's age, show me that AT's memory is fuzzy. And if I don't take the comments on Bulma/Mai's age seriously, I won't cherry pick and listen to only Beerus over those two.

The manga was never 100% consistent with itself so a few inconsistencies like the ages of minor character isn't a good reason to ignore Beerus's statement. Cell pointed to his head and said he could regenerate as long as that cell was intact but still regenerated when Goku blew off his upper half. Is that inconsistency an excuse to ignore everything else in the Cell saga? No because it's a long story written by one person so there are bound to be some details that the author forgot.

People like to come up with in-universe things like Bulma lying about her age, so I like to think of one like Goku being suppressed.

Not to be sound rude but I don't think you realize the differences between those two explanations. In Battle of Gods Krillin asks Bulma her age and she tells him never to ask a woman that so a possible in-universe explanation is that she purposely lied about her age. Saying Goku was suppressed doesn't work as an excuse because Goku never denied Beerus' statement. Like I said many times already this would literally be the ONLY time a character was being underestimated and didn't bother to prove the other person wrong. There would have to be a believable reason for why Goku wouldn't correct Beerus if he was wrong. I really hope you don't say "Well Goku doesn't want to anger Beerus" because that was already addressed many times. Goku offered to only fight in SSJ2 which implied that he thought his SSJ3 was too much for Beerus. That's more disrespectful than just saying "I'm only suppressed right now. I'm actually stronger than Frieza in my normal form now". If you could come up with a good in-universe reason for why Goku wouldn't correct Beerus then please share it.