Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[KentalSSJ6]

I would take the comment of base Goku < Freeza if the comment was original manga. I'm not saying something like BoG isn't canon or dis-crediting it's continuity in the manga, but the comments on things like Bulma's age (the whole lying excuse doesn't match up w/ the context) and Mai's age, show me that AT's memory is fuzzy. And if I don't take the comments on Bulma/Mai's age seriously, I won't cherry pick and listen to only Beerus over those two. People like to come up with in-universe things like Bulma lying about her age, so I like to think of one like Goku being suppressed. There's a lot in the manga suggesting to me base Saiyans > Freeza. And to get base saiyans that low by the time in the series, you really have to downgrade some really big power ups. It's just my interpretation, and I'm not calling it fact.

Alright listen up. When it comes to a person suppressing themselves or holding back in Dragonball, It is always acknowledged in one way or another. For example, the whole "Goku was suppressed when Beerus looked him over" excuse. When someone is suppressed or holding back in Dragonball, it's mentioned.

Vegeta holding his power back when he meets up with Qui

Freeza mentioning his power percentage throughout his fight with Goku (using a third, half, etc)

They even do it in Battle of Gods with Beerus admitting he was only using 70% and Goku saying he used only 80%.

Now we get no such statement from Goku when they initially meet. Beerus looks him over, says it's impossible for him to beat Freeza the way he was (being in Base) and Goku doesn't utter a peep suggesting otherwise. We don't hear Goku say "Oh well I'm not really at full power right now" or anything like that. Kaio even agrees with Beerus's statement.

So I repeat, when someone is holding back/suppressing their power in Dragonball, the manga or the characters let the reader know one way or another.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

@Skar Honestly, I don't see why you have some kinda huge problem with me believing Base Saiyans > Freeza. It's accepted on many sites, but apparently on this site you're attacked for it. It's true, Goku didn't contradict Beerus, but I can't give you an in-universe explanation for why, I'm not Goku.

This is the main reason I believe Freeza < Base Saiyans:

Spoiler:

And no, I don't believe she was suppressed because:
1. Nothing suggest 18 can suppress ki
2. She even said it was hard to hold back
3. She didn't just knock them out of the ring effortlessly like she did to the other humans
4. I doubt she wouldn't smash them into the ground AND shoot a ki blast if she thought he was a normal human

That's my belief. If it angers you that much, agree to disagree.

[Kaboom]

Nobody's being "attacked" as far as I can see. If a debate gets personal and flame-y, then reporting it is just a single button-click away.

Sometimes, though, it's just that Person A is going to believe Thing X and Person B will prefer Thing Y. Better to just let it go than let things get too heated.

[Skar]

assumption, and still uncontradicted on Vegeta's part.

It's funny that every time this is brought up no one mentions the fact that Vegeta argued with Bulma and Gohan before finally agreeing. If he was so confident he could win in base then why argue at all? There's enough evidence in the manga to suggest Vegeta wouldn't have taken this request seriously. While everyone was suppressing their energy to avoid breaking the punching machine Vegeta didn't have a problem sending it flying and showing off how strong he was. Later on he allowed himself to get possessed by Babidi and risk the fate of the universe just for a rematch with Goku. If he was willing to do anything to get Goku to fight him at full strength then what suggests he intended to only fight in base at the tournament?

@Skar Honestly, I don't see why you have some kinda huge problem with me believing Base Saiyans > Freeza. It's accepted on many sites, but apparently on this site you're attacked for it. It's true, Goku didn't contradict Beerus, but I can't give you an in-universe explanation for why, I'm not Goku.

I wasn't attacking you. In a debate you use evidence and logic to come to a conclusion. I was doing that to show that the implications in the manga could easily be interpreted to fit with Beerus' statement. To be honest I did have a problem with some of the evidence you were using because it seems like you were trying everything to discredit the movie. First you said it might not have been intended to be canon even though the author retconned Beerus into the manga which would make little sense if he didn't consider the only movie that Beerus appeared in to have taken place in the manga timeline. Then you suggested that the movie shouldn't be taken seriously because of some inconsistencies with character ages. You didn't apply that same logic to the manga even though it wasn't 100% consistent. Other than that I don't have a problem with your opinion that the base Saiyans > Frieza. I only have a problem when I feel someone is being unreasonable or a little hypocritical with their evidence.

1. Nothing suggest 18 can suppress ki

If you recall #18 was able to hit the punching machine twice without breaking it. She was also able to knock out Jewel without killing him. I would say this is enough evidence to suggest she can suppress/hold back her energy.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

It's funny that every time this is brought up no one mentions the fact that Vegeta argued with Bulma and Gohan before finally agreeing. If he was so confident he could win in base then why argue at all? There's enough evidence in the manga to suggest Vegeta wouldn't have taken this request seriously. While everyone was suppressing their energy to avoid breaking the punching machine Vegeta didn't have a problem sending it flying and showing off how strong he was. Later on he allowed himself to get possessed by Babidi and risk the fate of the universe just for a rematch with Goku. If he was willing to do anything to get Goku to fight him at full strength then what suggests he intended to only fight in base at the tournament?

What I'm saying is it's uncontradicted. Vegeta after agreeing says "fine, I'll still have the upper hand". And 18 was in the plane with them, why didn't she snap back saying something like "You won't get passed me".

I wasn't attacking you. In a debate you use evidence and logic to come to a conclusion. I was doing that to show that the implications in the manga could easily be interpreted to fit with Beerus' statement. To be honest I did have a problem with some of the evidence you were using because it seems like you were trying everything to discredit the movie. First you said it might not have been intended to be canon even though the author retconned Beerus into the manga which would make little sense if he didn't consider the only movie that Beerus appeared in to have taken place in the manga timeline. Then you suggested that the movie shouldn't be taken seriously because of some inconsistencies with character ages. You didn't apply that same logic to the manga even though it wasn't 100% consistent. Other than that I don't have a problem with your opinion that the base Saiyans > Freeza. I only have a problem when I feel someone is being unreasonable or a little hypocritical with their evidence.

Fair enough, I got a little outta hand there

If you recall #18 was able to hit the punching machine twice without breaking it. She was also able to knock out Jewel without killing him. I would say this is enough evidence to suggest she can suppress/hold back her energy.

Holding back and suppressing are not the same thing as I explained about a page ago. She also even said she has trouble holding back

[Hugo Boss]

They fought as Super Saiyans as well

Where?

You can see for yourself in the images you posted.

Dodging a ki blast doesn't make you on par with someone

Maybe you still didn't get what the entry meant. They failed to finish her off. It doesn't matter if they are more powerful and couldn't beat their opponent in set rules. Once No. 18 rip their disguise they lost. She was smart enough to overcome the power discrepance between her and the boys and use the rules on her favor, that could be called a battle involving brains and brute force.

If for some reason Vegeta would end up fighting with Piccolo or No. 18, he would just transform if he felt the need

assumption, and still uncontradicted on Vegeta's part.

Yes, it is an assumption, just like it is an assumption to think Base Vegeta can beat No. 18. There is no problem to assume things, since we are in the fan-territory.

just like the kids did in a brief moment.

On accident

Not really. Goten would have lost if didn't transform, he needed to do that. Trunks probably would be hit by Goten if he didn't transformed in the last second. Even if Trunks said it was an accident, that would be an excuse.

Gohan pretty much didn't follow his own suggestion when instigated by Kibito

Because Piccolo told him to.

Yes, the context forced Gohan to transform into Super Saiyan. He even felt he could show a step further in that transformation. (He probably cared less about classmates and school.)

To think what Vegeta would have done is up to speculation. That's not saying you can't believe his base is stronger than Freeza or Piccolo, but there is really nothing that absolutely contradicts what Beerus said in the movie.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

You're missing the point.

The daizenshuu entry says that Trunks exhibited strenght on par with Android 18's. The only time they were actually fighting was in base. They only shot a ki blast as SSJs, you're twisting the statement.

And Goten even said that he had forgot, Trunks transformed out of panic

[Hugo Boss]

We clearly have different perspectives of what "strenght", "fight" and "twist" mean. I guess we can read the entry whenever we want and we will never come to the same conclusion. That's fine for me.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Agree to disagree then.

[Skar]

What I'm saying is it's uncontradicted. Vegeta after agreeing says "fine, I'll still have the upper hand". And 18 was in the plane with them, why didn't she snap back saying something like "You won't get passed me".

This is why I kinda felt you weren't being reasonable. You're only focusing on a small part of that scene to use as evidence. Vegeta saying he'll still have the upperhand only matters if he actually intended to remain in base throughout the tournament. If he was so confident he would win in base he would've said that from the beginning instead of arguing. #18 knows SSJ Vegeta is stronger than him but has no idea how strong his base is. She doesn't even comment when all four Saiyans agree to fight in base. Like I've said before every power comparison in the manga compared both characters by name. You're ignoring all this in favor of Vegeta saying he'll have the upperhand in base even though he himself proved that he didn't bother to stay in base.

Holding back and suppressing are not the same thing as I explained about a page ago. She also even said she has trouble holding back

She said she had trouble holding back but she proved she could hold back enough not to break the machine and hurt Jewel without killing him. I don't understand how you're saying "holding back" and "suppressing" are not the same thing when they're basically synonyms.

http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-s ... old%20back:
hold back
check, control, curb, inhibit, rein, repress, restrain, stem the flow, suppress, desist, forbear, keep back, refuse, withhold

http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/suppress:
suppress
verb
2
to refrain from openly showing or uttering <he managed to suppress a scream at the sight of the dead body> <suppressed her anger>
Synonyms choke (back), hold back, pocket, repress, sink, smother, stifle, strangle, submerge, swallow

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

This is why I kinda felt you weren't being reasonable. You're only focusing on a small part of that scene to use as evidence. Vegeta saying he'll still have the upperhand only matters if he actually intended to remain in base throughout the tournament. If he was so confident he would win in base he would've said that from the beginning instead of arguing. #18 knows SSJ Vegeta is stronger than him but has no idea how strong his base is. She doesn't even comment when all four Saiyans agree to fight in base. Like I've said before every power comparison in the manga compared both characters by name. You're ignoring all this in favor of Vegeta saying he'll have the upperhand in base even though he himself proved that he didn't bother to stay in base.

But what I'm saying is, he argued at first, but even after he agreed, even then, he still thought he'd have an upperhand. He knows his SSJ Android arc self was weaker than 18, but if he's condifent now, that atleast says to me base Boo arc Vegeta > SSJ Android arc Vegeta.
We have different ways of interpreting that scene, so to each his own.

She said she had trouble holding back but she proved she could hold back enough not to break the machine and hurt Jewel without killing him.

Good point

I don't understand how you're saying "holding back" and "suppressing" are not the same thing when they're basically synonyms.

Answer me this:
Remember 50% Freeza vs. base Goku? When Goku couldn't land a hit and Freeza was literally like 10x stronger than him, yet Freeza didn't just one-shot him or kill him in one punch? Was Freeza suppressed or holding back?

Suppressing is lowering ki output
holding back is just not putting as much force behind your hits and you would going all out

[Skar]

But what I'm saying is, he argued at first, but even after he agreed, even then, he still thought he'd have an upperhand. He knows his SSJ Android arc self was weaker than 18, but if he's condifent now, that atleast says to me base Boo arc Vegeta > SSJ Android arc Vegeta.
We have different ways of interpreting that scene, so to each his own.

What exactly would you expect Vegeta to say after losing that argument and having to agree to remain in base? Knowing his character would you expect him to say something like "I'll agree with you but I'll use SSJ whenever I feel like it" or "fine not like I needed SSJ anyway". He said anything to get them off his back because he knew he'll be using SSJ. Could you find any other vague implication like this in the manga that was proven true? By that I mean a character implying they were stronger than another character and NOT mentioning the other by name. #16 comparing #17 to Kamiccolo, #16 comparing Imperfect Cell to himself, Cell Games Vegeta flatout saying Goku was the stronger than him, Majin Vegeta saying SSJ2 Goku was stronger than SSJ2 kid Gohan, Piccolo saying Majin Vegeta was stronger than SSJ2 kid Gohan, and Beerus comparing base Goku and Frieza are all direct statements of characters being compared by name.

Remember 50% Freeza vs. base Goku? When Goku couldn't land a hit and Freeza was literally like 10x stronger than him, yet Freeza didn't just one-shot him or kill him in one punch? Was Freeza suppressed or holding back?

Suppressing is lowering ki output
holding back is just not putting as much force behind your hits and you would going all out

They have the same end result of not fighting at full strength. Saying she can't hold back against Mighty Mask isn't a good argument since she already proved she could hold back enough not to kill a normal human. She never showed she was worried she might lose or that this mysterious fighter might be too much for her so if anything that would imply she was still holding back against them even after knocking them down.

[xmysticgohanx]

Alright listen up. When it comes to a person suppressing themselves or holding back in Dragonball, It is always acknowledged in one way or another.

This has to be some sort of logical fallacy, just because it isn't said that there suppressed doesn't mean that they aren't. That's like saying I only breathe when I acknowledge it.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

What exactly would you expect Vegeta to say after losing that argument and having to agree to remain in base? Knowing his character would you expect him to say something like "I'll agree with you but I'll use SSJ whenever I feel like it" or "fine not like I needed SSJ anyway".

He could've said something like "whatever" or just shown annoyance, he didn't have to chime in he would still have the upper hand. I see no reason for Toriyama to throw this line in if people are gonna disregard it. And yes, you use that argument about Beerus' statement too, if you do, then we have a stalemate.

He said anything to get them off his back because he knew he'll be using SSJ.

Still an assumption.

Could you find any other vague implication like this in the manga that was proven true? By that I mean a character implying they were stronger than another character and NOT mentioning the other by name.

It's still uncontradicted, when there's no statements in literature we have to take statements at face value. Vegeta didn't directly compare himself to 18 since he was claiming superiority to everyone he believed entering.
Which would make more sense of him to say "I'll still have the upperhand", or "I'll still have the upperhand, even against #18!" ?
Again, the argument can be used with Beerus too, but BoG can certainly hold just as much weight as the manga, if you believe so, then again, we're at a stalemate.

They have the same end result of not fighting at full strength.

I realize that, I thought you were trying to argue that they're different in general, I was just saying there not the same thing, I'm not denying 18 could've been holding back.

She never showed she was worried she might lose or that this mysterious fighter might be too much for her so if anything that would imply she was still holding back against them even after knocking them down.

Or, it could mean she had the upperhand, but Goten and Trunks were still able to hold their own. Keep in mind they had the disadvantage too since:
-Trunks was on Goten's shoulders
-Goten had a hard time seeing while he had to guide them
-Goten was not kicking or helping
-The suit was restricting Trunks
-Trunks had smaller limbs than 18

Besides, why shoot a ki blast at them if she thought they were a regular human? Certainly she wouldn't think a regular human would survive that. And also, if the kids were multi-folds weaker, I don't see why she wouldn't just one-shot them out of the ring, why is she just up in the air practically dancing with them ?

[Skar]

Alright listen up. When it comes to a person suppressing themselves or holding back in Dragonball, It is always acknowledged in one way or another.

This has to be some sort of logical fallacy, just because it isn't said that there suppressed doesn't mean that they aren't. That's like saying I only breathe when I acknowledge it.

How is it a logical fallacy if it follows the logic of the manga that every time a character was suppressed/wasn't using full strength it was pointed out? Outskirts Battledome was a useful list of logical fallacies. Saying Goku was suppressed when it was never implied could be several of them.

Also just curious but in your signature you claim Syn Shenron > BoG trio. There was never a comparison made between them so is it just an opinion or is there evidence suggesting that Syn is stronger Whis and Beerus?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Also just curious but in your signature you claim Syn Shenron > BoG trio. There was never a comparison made between them so is it just an opinion or is there evidence suggesting that Syn is stronger Whis and Beerus?

It's most likely an opinion, as I don't know of any official material that has made a comparison of the two.

[Skar]

Still an assumption.

.
I feel that's hypocritical you'd accuse me of making an assumption when that's all you've been doing. If he's okay with risking Buu's release by fighting Goku then he definitely wouldn't mind fighting in SSJ at the tournament. Plus he didn't mind breaking the machine which shows he didn't care much about hiding his power. That wasn't just a random assumption.

It's still uncontradicted, when there's no statements in literature we have to take statements at face value. Vegeta didn't directly compare himself to 18 since he was claiming superiority to everyone he believed entering.

If you can please answer the question. I'm asking if there is anything else in the manga that compared two characters without mentioning the other. If not then what reason is there for me to believe this is the only instance of that?

Besides, why shoot a ki blast at them if she thought they were a regular human? Certainly she wouldn't think a regular human would survive that. And also, if the kids were multi-folds weaker, I don't see why she wouldn't just one-shot them out of the ring, why is she just up in the air practically dancing with them ?

I've already addressed this one a few times so you could go back to one of my previous comments to see my response if you want.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I feel that's hypocritical you'd accuse me of making an assumption when that's all you've been doing. If he's okay with risking Buu's release by fighting Goku then he definitely wouldn't mind fighting in SSJ at the tournament. Plus he didn't mind breaking the machine which shows he didn't care much about hiding his power. That wasn't just a random assumption.

I'm not saying it's random or baseless, but it's not 100% concrete either, so I wouldn't say it can't be used in a debate.
Prior to the tournament starting, he was sure he would get to fight Goku. But after Bobbidi's ship, he thought he wouldn't get the chance to, which is why he was going to extreme measures to fight Goku, like risking Boo's release. Him breaking the machine shows he doesn't care showing off he's strong, Gohan just didn't want people to know they were the same people from the Cell Games.

If you can please answer the question. I'm asking if there is anything else in the manga that compared two characters without mentioning the other. If not then what reason is there for me to believe this is the only instance of that?

I don't know another instance, but it's still a comparison. Vegeta compared himself to everyone he knew was entering

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I don't know if this really needs to be explained. She used a weak attack to knock out that human because she sorta wants to avoid killing him. That same weak attack didn't work on Mighty Mask since it turned out he wasn't an average human. Mighty Mask was the one who fly up and she chased him and knocked him back down.

Spoiler:

She had 5 whole panels to effortlessly one-shot them out of the ring

[Skar]

I'm not saying it's random or baseless, but it's not 100% concrete either, so I wouldn't say it can't be used in a debate. Prior to the tournament starting, he was sure he would get to fight Goku. But after Bobbidi's ship, he thought he wouldn't get the chance to, which is why he was going to extreme measures to fight Goku, like risking Boo's release. Him breaking the machine shows he doesn't care showing off he's strong, Gohan just didn't want people to know they were the same people from the Cell Games.

Every other Saiyan who agreed ended up transforming anyway. Gohan only did after his disguise fell off but he still had the option of not transforming. Goku wasn't told about it. On this page he's surprised Goten could turn SSJ and said he didn't know anything about it. How likely is it that Vegeta would be the only Saiyan who keeps that promise?

I don't know another instance, but it's still a comparison. Vegeta compared himself to everyone he knew was entering

Then you could probably understand why I can't consider that good evidence. It's a direct statement that follows the same format of every other power comparison in the manga by mentioning both characters by name VS Vegeta boasting he can still win without SSJ anyway even though he wasted time arguing about it. One of these has to be more likely to be true than the other.

She had 5 whole panels to effortlessly one-shot them out of the ring

We know she was holding back but we don't know how much. She was apparently slowly increasing how much energy she was using as she fought them. First they were able to block some of her hits so she decided to speed up and knock them to the ground. They weren't knocked out so she fired a ki blast. She never implied she was using full power so nothing implies that was a full strength ki blast. Even after they turned SSJ and attacked her she said "Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!" If she still thinks she can handle the situation and settle the fight soon then that means she doesn't feel they were much stronger than her. Trunks fired a suppressed blast but that's still way stronger than anything his base could do or else he wouldn't have transformed.