Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:44 am

Skar wrote: Every other Saiyan who agreed ended up transforming anyway. Gohan only did after his disguise fell off but he still had the option of not transforming. Goku wasn't told about it. On this page he's surprised Goten could turn SSJ and said he didn't know anything about it. How likely is it that Vegeta would be the only Saiyan who keeps that promise?

Again, Goten said he forgot. And Gohan was told by Piccolo. What suggests Gohan would've transformed had Piccolo told him not to, when Gohan wanted everyone to stay in base. And if Goku was paired up against someone like Gohan or Vegeta, what makes you think he would go SSJ if they don't? We don't know if Vegeta would've transformed, but I don't see any reason to say that it's fact he would've.

Then you could probably understand why I can't consider that good evidence. It's a direct statement that follows the same format of every other power comparison in the manga by mentioning both characters by name VS Vegeta boasting he can still win without SSJ anyway even though he wasted time arguing about it. One of these has to be more likely to be true than the other.

Yes, one has to be more likely true than the other. You pick Beerus', I pick Vegeta's. That's personal interpretation. (IMO 90's AT > Manga > 2013 AT) (again that's my opinion)

We know she was holding back but we don't know how much. She was apparently slowly increasing how much energy she was using as she fought them. First they were able to block some of her hits so she decided to speed up and knock them to the ground. They weren't knocked out so she fired a ki blast. She never implied she was using full power so nothing implies that was a full strength ki blast. Even after they turned SSJ and attacked her she said "Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!" If she still thinks she can handle the situation and settle the fight soon then that means she doesn't feel they were much stronger than her. Trunks fired a suppressed blast but that's still way stronger than anything his base could do or else he wouldn't have transformed.

That's what you think she did. I personally don't think it would take her that long to find the right amount of effort. If she realizes that a punch meant to knock-out a human does virtually nothing, I'm sure she'd realize she'd have to rev it up by a good margin, not increase that slowly. She doesn't think she can handle the situation, if you look at her reaction, she's scared shitless. She had to use the kienzan to ruin their disguise, because she couldn't have hurt them with any physical attacks since they were stronger than her. Back to the Daizenshuu argument, it says there base form was on par with 18, and the Daizenshuu was confirmed by AT, and the statement from the Daiz doesn't contradict anything.

Skar · Post by **Skar** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:32 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Again, Goten said he forgot. And Gohan was told by Piccolo. What suggests Gohan would've transformed had Piccolo told him not to, when Gohan wanted everyone to stay in base. And if Goku was paired up against someone like Gohan or Vegeta, what makes you think he would go SSJ if they don't? We don't know if Vegeta would've transformed, but I don't see any reason to say that it's fact he would've.

I never said it was fact. I said based on the evidence that every other Saiyan ended up transforming and Goku didn't know about it that the likelihood of Vegeta keeping his promise would greatly decrease.

Yes, one has to be more likely true than the other. You pick Beerus', I pick Vegeta's. That's personal interpretation. (IMO 90's AT > Manga > 2013 AT) (again that's my opinion)

Not to sound rude but I don't think you know the difference between opinion and fact. It's a fact that every proven statement in the manga had both characters mentioned by name and it's a fact that Beerus' statement followed that same format. Vegeta's statement would've been the only one of its kind in the manga.

Back to the Daizenshuu argument, it says there base form was on par with 18, and the Daizenshuu was confirmed by AT, and the statement from the Daiz doesn't contradict anything.

I guess SSJ Trunks was at least 50x stronger than #18. I wonder how much he had to suppress his power?

Also something I wonder is why I bothered with this discussion. It's fun to discuss here but only when the person is using consistent logic and reasoning. Looking back you said you didn't agree with the Daizenshuu power levels for the Frieza saga but here you are using the Daizenshuu as evidence. You said you can't "cherry pick" evidence from Battle of Gods because there were minor inconsistencies but you're pretty much saying you can cherry pick whatever information you feel like from the Daizenshuu. Every time I say something it's only an assumption. Every time you suggest something then it's a fair opinion no matter how much evidence goes against it.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:48 am

I never said it was fact. I said based on the evidence that every other Saiyan ended up transforming and Goku didn't know about it that the likelihood of Vegeta keeping his promise would greatly decrease.

again, only likely, so the possibility isn't dismissed.

Not to sound rude but I don't think you know the difference between opinion and fact. It's a fact that every proven statement in the manga had both characters mentioned by name and it's a fact that Beerus' statement followed that same format. Vegeta's statement would've been the only one of its kind in the manga.

It doesn't matter if it isn't a specific format. Why can you dismiss Vegeta's comment? Just because he didn't mention No.18's name? What Vegeta's statement is saying is base Vegeta > everyone to his knowledge that is entering. You can't just say that because there wasn't a specific name that completely discredits his statement.

I guess SSJ Trunks was at least 50x stronger than #18. I wonder how much he had to suppress his power?

I don't get what you're trying to say here? The kids never fought in SSJ, only shot a suppressed ki blast to which 18 shat her pants, so them being 50x her doesn't really contradict anything.

Every time I say something it's only an assumption. Every time you suggest something then it's a fair opinion no matter how much evidence goes against it.

That's not what I'm getting at, it's just your main argument is based on dismissing an uncontradicted statement because it doesn't follow a specific format.

And for argument's sake, I won't use the daizenshuu either. My interpretation still tells me No.18 >= Base kids, which is supported by the manga.

Hugo Boss · Post by **Hugo Boss** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:48 am

Skar wrote:Also something I wonder is why I bothered with this discussion. It's fun to discuss here but only when the person is using consistent logic and reasoning.

Either interpretation is welcome. The problem is when people are more focused on win a debate than having a conversation, as you can see for the kind of writing in the past 3 pages. If you don't think the same way as others you are simply twisting things.

Skar · Post by **Skar** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:35 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:That's not what I'm getting at, it's just your main argument is based on dismissing an uncontradicted statement because it doesn't follow a specific format.

No my main argument was direct statement >>> implication. Vegeta's statement would've been the only one of its kind in the manga so you would have to provide some evidence that it was intended to be the only one of its kind. The statement also relies entirely on Vegeta keeping his promise to remain in base. If anything at all implies Vegeta didn't intend to remain in base then his boasting would've been meaningless. The other Saiyans ended up all transforming and Goku didn't know so you would have to provide evidence that Vegeta was serious about fighting only in base. If it's your opinion that's fine but if you want to debate then you're going to need that evidence.

And for argument's sake, I won't use the daizenshuu either. My interpretation still tells me No.18 >= Base kids, which is supported by the manga.

It's the fact that you cherry picked whatever you felt like from the Daizenshuu. It hurts your credibility because it makes it seem like you'll say anything to get the other side to agree even if you yourself know the evidence you're using may not be legitimate or fair.

xmysticgohanx · Post by **xmysticgohanx** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:36 am

Skar wrote:
xmysticgohanx wrote:
KentalSSJ6 wrote:Alright listen up. When it comes to a person suppressing themselves or holding back in Dragonball, It is always acknowledged in one way or another.
This has to be some sort of logical fallacy, just because it isn't said that there suppressed doesn't mean that they aren't. That's like saying I only breathe when I acknowledge it.
How is it a logical fallacy if it follows the logic of the manga that every time a character was suppressed/wasn't using full strength it was pointed out? Outskirts Battledome was a useful list of logical fallacies. Saying Goku was suppressed when it was never implied could be several of them.

Also just curious but in your signature you claim Syn Shenron > BoG trio. There was never a comparison made between them so is it just an opinion or is there evidence suggesting that Syn is stronger Whis and Beerus?

Your whole argument t is based on just because Vegeta didn't say #18's name, it should be dismissed. Syn over BoG because in gt perfect files he was said to be a galaxy buster and iirc the show doesn't contradict it.

Hugo Boss · Post by **Hugo Boss** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:51 am

xmysticgohanx wrote:Syn over BoG because in gt perfect files he was said to be a galaxy buster and iirc the show doesn't contradict it.

Can you provide a quote, please?

Skar · Post by **Skar** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:38 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:Your whole argument t is based on just because Vegeta didn't say #18's name, it should be dismissed.

That's almost exactly what SSJ2FutureGohan wrote and I already addressed that in the comment right above yours.

Syn over BoG because in gt perfect files he was said to be a galaxy buster and iirc the show doesn't contradict it.

Didn't the GT Perfect Files also confirm that SSJ1 Vegetto >= a SSJ4? In Battle of Gods Goku said fusion may not be enough against Beerus so that would imply even at the strongest forms Gogeta or Vegetto can't defeat Beerus. We saw in GT that SSJ4 Goku + power of other Saiyans > Syn Shenron. The energy of the other Saiyans couldn't have increased his power by much considering how much weaker than Goku they were. I would say it's more like BoG Trio > SSJ3 Vegetto or SSJ3 Gogeta > SSJ4 Goku + other Saiyan energy > Syn Shenron > SSJ1 Vegetto > normal SSJ4.

xmysticgohanx · Post by **xmysticgohanx** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:16 pm

Skar wrote:
xmysticgohanx wrote:Your whole argument t is based on just because Vegeta didn't say #18's name, it should be dismissed.
That's almost exactly what SSJ2FutureGohan wrote and I already addressed that in the comment right above yours.

They're both direct statements.

Didn't the GT Perfect Files also confirm that SSJ1 Vegetto >= a SSJ4? In Battle of Gods Goku said fusion may not be enough against Beerus so that would imply even at the strongest forms Gogeta or Vegetto can't defeat Beerus. We saw in GT that SSJ4 Goku + power of other Saiyans > Syn Shenron. The energy of the other Saiyans couldn't have increased his power by much considering how much weaker than Goku they were. I would say it's more like BoG Trio > SSJ3 Vegetto or SSJ3 Gogeta > SSJ4 Goku + other Saiyan energy > Syn Shenron > SSJ1 Vegetto > normal SSJ4.

It said "may be stronger" and the show outright says Super Baby 1 is the strongest ki ever felt so Super Baby 1 > Vegetto

@Hugoboss it's somewhere in the op:

Spoiler:

Skar · Post by **Skar** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:09 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:They're both direct statements.

No actually they were not both direct statements. You could take Beerus' statement at face value because it was never implied that Goku was suppressed. If you want to take Vegeta's statement then you have to prove:
1. This was intended to mean base Vegeta > #18 without mentioning her name. You would have to prove this was the only statement of its kind in the manga.
2. That Vegeta was serious about remaining in base throughout the tournament even though the other three Saiyans who agreed clearly didn't.

It said "may be stronger" and the show outright says Super Baby 1 is the strongest ki ever felt so Super Baby 1 > Vegetto

The strongest ki they ever felt before that was SSJ1 Vegetto. Battle of Gods takes place in a different timeline than GT so they couldn't have been comparing Baby to Whis or Beerus. In the anime did Syn Shenron say he could destroy the galaxy in one blast or when his negative energy spreads?

xmysticgohanx · Post by **xmysticgohanx** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:25 pm

Tbh I don't remember because gt is bad but iirc he didn't say through the negative energy spread. I know they weren't referring to Whis/Beerus. That's why it's Syn > BoG and not Baby > BoG

Skar · Post by **Skar** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:05 pm

I noticed you didn't say anything about the evidence I asked for to support Vegeta's statement. For the sake of discussion I hope you or whoever else wants to use that line could answer those questions I asked. If you feel it's solid evidence then answering those questions should be easy.

Tbh I don't remember because gt is bad but iirc he didn't say through the negative energy spread. I know they weren't referring to Whis/Beerus. That's why it's Syn > BoG and not Baby > BoG

I don't know how that works. In GT SSJ4 Goku plus the energy of the other Saiyans >>> Syn Shenron. The energy of the other Saiyans combined was less than Goku's own power so it was less than 2x boost. That would mean Syn was less than twice as strong as Goku since the energy of the other Saiyans was enough to surpass him. SSJ God Goku was a 6 and Whis was a 15 according to Toriyama so Whis was almost three times stronger than Goku. If SSJ God Goku was stronger than SSJ4 Goku then Whis who is almost three times stronger should surpass Syn and SSJ4 Goku + energy of other Saiyans since they're both less than 2x normal SSJ4 Goku.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:26 pm

Given the context of the conversation, it's easy to assume that Vegeta's self-proclaimed superiority is just among his fellow Super Saiyans. Eighteen and Piccolo aren't part of that comparison.

xmysticgohanx · Post by **xmysticgohanx** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:26 pm

@skar
1. why would I have to prove Vegeta was talking about #18 when she's clearly in the room.
2. The kids shouldn't count because they're kids and they would've stayed in base of it wasn't for Goten or whoever turned SSJ first. As for Gohan, they didn't expect someone like Kibito to join. There's no reason to assume Vegeta wasn't going to stay in base. #18 didn't say anything about Vegeta being able to beat her.
3. There's no reason to assume ki giving is linear and even if it was, GT is non canon so it could work differently like in movie 8. They're 2 different fictions so you can't just power level scale GT and BoG. That's why you need feats/reasonable statements.

@kaboom Given the context of the convo, it's easy to see that Vegeta was talking about everyone he knew was going to join.

Skar · Post by **Skar** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:27 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:1. why would I have to prove Vegeta was talking about #18 when she's clearly in the room.

You have to prove the author's intention with Vegeta's line. #18 was sitting right by him and didn't ask if he seriously thought he could beat her in base or comment at all. All she knew was that SSJ Vegeta was stronger than her but had no idea how strong his base was. Like I said about a hundred times now every time there was a comparison the characters were mentioned by name. It was pretty clear in Battle of Gods the author wanted to tell us that base Goku was weaker than Frieza. That line was irrelevant to the plot because all Beerus had to do was ask Goku about SSJ but he compared him to Frieza anyway. You have to prove Vegeta's line was intended to mean he was stronger than #18 and Piccolo AND that he intended to fight them both in base.

2. The kids shouldn't count because they're kids and they would've stayed in base of it wasn't for Goten or whoever turned SSJ first. As for Gohan, they didn't expect someone like Kibito to join. There's no reason to assume Vegeta wasn't going to stay in base. #18 didn't say anything about Vegeta being able to beat her.

If you're not counting the kids because their kids then you could also not count Vegeta because he's arrogant and likes to boast. If you want to include Vegeta you have to include everyone else who agreed. Vegeta was the only one who argued with Gohan about it so that alone would mean he was the least likely to keep his promise. The fact that every other Saiyan who agreed ended up transforming and Goku was never told about it would mean there's really no evidence that Vegeta would've been the only one to keep his promise. You would have to somehow prove that he was the only one.

3. There's no reason to assume ki giving is linear and even if it was, GT is non canon so it could work differently like in movie 8. They're 2 different fictions so you can't just power level scale GT and BoG. That's why you need feats/reasonable statements.

I agree that GT is non-canon but there would have to be some common ground between them if you yourself were comparing them in the first place. If you want to compare feats then SSJ4 Goku got cut by glass which would mean he was weaker than kid Goku who survived being shot and being hit over the head with an axe. Obviously SSJ4 Goku is much stronger than kid Goku in Dragonball and not all the feats are consistent. Unless you feel absorbing the power of the other Saiyans somehow tripled SSJ4 Goku's power then he should still be weaker than Whis who was almost 3x SSJ God Goku.

xmysticgohanx · Post by **xmysticgohanx** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:09 pm

Gt Goku could've got 29 trillion times stronger and I t still wouldn't have made a difference in comparing Shenron's power to Whis. Whis is massively faster than light and a solar system buster, Syn is massively faster than light also but still comparatively slower (the best feat Syn gets scaled to is anime kid Buu's galaxy busting over a couple years feat, which would even Bibidi teleported him to every star in the galaxy he would have to react and destroy the stars. It was calced at 3500x ftl btw) and Syn is a possibly a galaxy buster. If the show doesn't contradict the guidebook statement, iirc it doesn't. If it does then the best he could hope for is Cell's SS busting statement which actually works in the anime universe. It's backed up by an anime guidebook and anime kid Buu's absolute low end large star feat.

You're the one that has to prove Vegeta wasn't talking about #18 and Piccolo. Gohan was the one that wanted to win and he proposed the base thing.

And the feats you're arguing for are obvious low showings.

Skar · Post by **Skar** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:12 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:If the show doesn't contradict the guidebook statement, iirc it doesn't. If it does then the best he could hope for is Cell's SS busting statement which actually works in the anime universe. It's backed up by an anime guidebook and anime kid Buu's absolute low end large star feat.

Cell said he could destroy the solar system but after he was killed by Gohan's Kamehameha it only left a small crater. If somehow Gohan was compressing his Kamehameha by several trillion times so that it wouldn't damage the surroundings very much then maybe Cell could be a solar system buster. If we take that feat seriously then Beerus would have to be much greater than a solar system buster at full power. Feats weren't consistent so I don't know what their destructive power was exactly. I think the simple fact that Gohan, Goten, and Trunks gave their energy to Goku and it allowed him to surpass Syn Shenron is enough to mean Whis is much stronger than Syn. All three of those Saiyans combined were weaker than SSJ1 Goku at the time so I find it hard to believe that gathering their energy more than tripled SSJ4 Goku's power. Is there anything to suggests them giving their energy was more than just adding their power to his?

You're the one that has to prove Vegeta wasn't talking about #18 and Piccolo. Gohan was the one that wanted to win and he proposed the base thing.

No actually you would have to because you're claiming it. I've been repeating the same thing over and over again because I'm not really get a direct response or answer to the questions I keep asking. Maybe if I word it differently it would make the questions more clear:

Burden of proof fallacy

This is when someone attempts to make someone else prove a claim when the burden of proof is really on them to prove it. The burden of proof is always on the positive claim, and the person who makes the claim.

Example:

"Goku is faster than light speed because you can't prove he's not!"

In this case, the person in the example makes a claim (Goku is FTL), and without providing evidence for it himself, he asks his opponent to prove him wrong. In reality, the person who made that claim would be the one required to prove it.

1. You claimed Goku could've been suppressed when Beerus sensed his energy but there was no proof of that and Goku didn't say he was. The burden of proof would be on you to prove that he was suppressed if you want to use that as an argument.

2. You're claiming that Vegeta's line was intended to mean he was stronger than #18 and Piccolo when others dismiss it as Vegeta boasting as usual because he argued and then finally agreed. You're claiming Vegeta would've been the only Saiyan to keep his promise even though every other Saiyan ended up transforming and the only Saiyan he cared about fighting wasn't told about it. The burden of proof would be on you to prove that his line was intended by the author to be the only one of its kind AND that Vegeta would've been the only Saiyan to remain in base throughout the tournament.

xmysticgohanx · Post by **xmysticgohanx** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:43 pm

1. We're specifically talking about anime Cell not manga Cell. Everyone knows manga Cell isn't a solar system buster. Beerus doesn't exist in the GT universe. Anime Cell is a ss buster for the reasons I provided. You're arguing for the AoE fallacy that was debunked back in 2010. J/CC is a infinitely more accurate way to calc explosions than how big they are. Otherwise Freeza > Android arc SSJ Vegeta and Golden Ape Baby. The simple fact that Goku's 10x Kamehameha didn't affect Syn shows that he needed a lot of energy.

2. Vegeta was talking about #18 and Piccolo because they were in the room and he clearly knew they were participating.

3. Goten and Trunks turned SSJ because one of them cheated. Gohan turned SSJ because he was facing an opponent he didn't know was going to participate.

4. I can't prove Goku was suppressed. However, it's entirely possible that he was and not baseless when you include Goten's performance vs #18, Vegeta's statement that has evidence to be reputable based on these facts, Kaioshin's "oh my Lord these people are strong" on Babidi's minions, and the Daizenshuu. To say Kaioshin was just scared off of hype has the same evidence as Goku being suppressed. They're both possible. However, base Saiyans > Freeza has proof.

Skar · Post by **Skar** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:24 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:1. We're specifically talking about anime Cell not manga Cell. Everyone knows manga Cell isn't a solar system buster. Beerus doesn't exist in the GT universe. Anime Cell is a ss buster for the reasons I provided. You're arguing for the AoE fallacy that was debunked back in 2010. J/CC is a infinitely more accurate way to calc explosions than how big they are. Otherwise Freeza > Android arc SSJ Vegeta and Golden Ape Baby. The simple fact that Goku's 10x Kamehameha didn't affect Syn shows that he needed a lot of energy.

I don't really know what "J/CC" stands for and I wasn't aware that "everyone" knew Cell wasn't a solar system buster in the manga. Cell claimed he could destroy the solar system in the manga so I'm not sure why that would only qualify for the anime. I think you're misunderstanding the Argument of Evidence fallacy.

Argument from ignorance

This is when someone states that since there is insufficient evidence of something, it cannot possibly be true.

Example: "I've never heard of an anime with stronger characters than DBZ, so therefore DBZ characters must be the strongest in all of anime."

The person in this example states that since they do not know of something personally, it cannot exist.

NOTE: This fallacy is often invoked improperly, because there's a big difference between stating "There is no evidence of A, so A cannot possibly be true" (which would be a fallacy) and "There is no evidence of A, so we cannot assume A to be true" (which is correct logic).

Notice the NOTE at the end. I said there's no evidence that adding the power of the other Saiyans more than tripled SSJ4 Goku's power so we can't assume it did not that it can't be true. All we know is that SSJ4 Goku was weaker than Syn Shenron before and then surpassed him after absorbing their energy. We have it confirmed by Toriyama that Whis was almost three times stronger than SSJ God Goku so if you want to argue that Syn was stronger than Whis then I need some evidence SSJ4 Goku became over three times stronger after absorbing the energy of the other Saiyans.

2. Vegeta was talking about #18 and Piccolo because they were in the room and he clearly knew they were participating.

3. Goten and Trunks turned SSJ because one of them cheated. Gohan turned SSJ because he was facing an opponent he didn't know was going to participate.

4. I can't prove Goku was suppressed. However, it's entirely possible that he was and not baseless when you include Goten's performance vs #18, Vegeta's statement that has evidence to be reputable based on these facts, Kaioshin's "oh my Lord these people are strong" on Babidi's minions, and the Daizenshuu. To say Kaioshin was just scared off of hype has the same evidence as Goku being suppressed. They're both possible. However, base Saiyans > Freeza has proof.

Well I have to keep believing base Goku was weaker than Frieza then. All the implications in the manga could be interpreted to fit with Beerus' undisputed statement. I would say it was undisputed because it was clear, the person it was directed to didn't say anything, and it was irrelevant to the plot but still included anyway. Before I can even consider Vegeta's statement I need proof that he intended to keep his promise. He was the only Saiyan who argued with Gohan and Bulma about it so to me that alone points to him being the least likely to be serious. That's before you consider that all the others ended up breaking their promise.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:59 pm

@RandomGuy96
tried a base saiyan < Freeza list, and ultimately failed... pick this apart for me and tell me what to change:

Spoiler:

Kanzenshuu

Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Who is online