Evidence supporting the idea of Kid Trunks > Future Trunks?

[hyperbeing1]

i actually do not believe a standard ssj can fight perfect cell that is a master saiyan and even then that is usually a suppressed Cell who was not using his full power. Also i am fairly uncertain to how comparable Trunks and Goten were to Gohan if it was only their base forms or their base and ssj form. Anyway the whole majin buu saga power levels are a bit mucked up.
The whole dabura thing is even more confusing as why would Gohan fight someone at perfect cells level as a ssj when he knew he was weaker and even perfect cell was quite a bit over him.
though i admit this quote may clarify them being stronger then her
Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P10.1-2
Context: as Trunks turns Super Saiyan and prepares to fire a ki blast at No.18
No.18: “…I see…Super Saiyan, huh?...I finally know your identity, boys…”
Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”
though that can also be interpreted as not using full power so they do not kill everyone their.

Though i wonder if 18 was fighting at full power or not as i am surprised she was able to still hold her own against them. I sometimes wonder if she has gotten a bit stronger as well.(what do you think of that idea)

After looking at the scans again that were posted earlier i actually noticed that the boys took 18 as a serious contender and even acknowledged that they were still at a disadvantage and still resorted to chi attacks. that could be due to her maybe being a superior fighter or maybe she was still able to physically contend with them even though they may still have more raw power then her.

The problem with this is we can't prove a regular SSJ Gohan couldn't have beaten Perfect Cell. Because Gohan didn't try to fight. I'm of the belief that he could have thought a full powered Cell decently if Gohan had the motivation to. During the battle Cell said he would go all out in speed at least and was knocked down by an unmotivated Gohan. So we basically have an unmotivated SSJ Gohan > Full speed Perfect Cell. What ever power loss Gohan had received during the last 7 years wasn't huge if he could still fight a Perfect Cell tier character as a regular SSJ. But he had lost enough to be slightly losing against Dabra. Regardless, SSJ Gohan in the Boo arc is still above SSJ Goku(Cell Games) who is significantly higher than any android. And for Goten and Trunks to be weaker than #18 they would have to be over 16x weaker than SSJ Goku(Cell Games) because Imperfect Cell can demolish Piccolo meaning he is around 2x stronger than Piccolo. Then he can demolish #16 as Semi-Perfect Cell putting him around 2x stronger than #16 and 4x stronger than Piccolo. Then we have him being demolished by Super Vegeta which should be around 2x stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell and 8x stronger than Piccolo. Finally suppressed Perfect Cell needs to be 2x stronger than Vegeta to totally demolish him which places him at 16x stronger than Piccolo. So, using Piccolo as a measuring stick, you're saying it looks something like this:

SSJ Goten: Less than 1 Piccolo
SSJ Trunks: Less than 1 Piccolo
#18: Less than 1 Piccolo
SSJ Gohan(Boo Arc): Above 1 Piccolo?
Imperfect Cell: About 2 Piccolo's
#16: About 2 Piccolo's
SSJ2 Gohan(Boo Arc): Above 2 Piccolo's?
Semi-Perfect Cell: 2*2 Piccolo's = 4 Piccolo's
Super Vegeta: 2*4 Piccolo's = 8 Piccolo's
Suppressed Perfect Cell: 2*8 Piccolo's = 16 Piccolo's
SSJ Goku(Cell Games): 16 Piccolo's
SSJ Gohan(Cell Games): Above 16 Piccolo's
Perfect Cell: Above 16 Piccolo's
Dabra: Above 16 Piccolo's

^I'm sorry but SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks being over 16x weaker than SSJ Goku(Cell Games) is ridiculous. And they would never be able to land blows on SSJ Gohan or SSJ Vegeta. And Gohan definitely didn't get over 16x weaker than he was at Cell Games because how would he even put up a fight against a Perfect Cell tier character? Even with SSJ2 he is going to be severely outclassed. As for them still being at a disadvantage against #18. You realise it is very difficult to fight in a costume that you're both wearing. Right? They are at a disadvantage because of the costume. Not because of their physical prowess. It is much easier to attack her with Ki attacks from a distance then having to deal with close combat. I mean you try and fight with someone while sharing a Donkey costume with a friend. It isn't going to be easy.

Ok i did look at herms strength translator and found that they even said it was hard to fight in the suit, but i am surprised they could not just get one blow and knock her out. Anyway nowhere did i imply or intend to imply 18 was more powerful then them. I was only countering some points that had little value for example the way she reacted to the ki attack.
The whole gohan full power vs cell at full power thing is your speculation. i admit gohan would have been able to do a better fight if he had the fire then, but just cause you can react to someones speed does not make you anywhere near as powerful as them. To be honest i am not gonna continue this part of the debate for i find it having little point.

the whole Trunks and Goten fighting evenly with Gohan and Vegeta is fairly impressive, but to be honest Vegeta was nowhere near fighting seriously and the second he went a little serious he sent trunks flying by mistake. Gohan was rusty the whole point of his practice with Goten is was to regain his fighting skills not his power alone he was holding back a bit during the fight.
i know the ssj is written as 50x, but i sometimes wonder if it is static and does not change at all due to experience. Goten and Trunks were both able to turn ssj, but i wonder if they get the same boost as gohan and goku. The whole variations of the ssj shows that you can alter specific changes in how much power you can imrpove. The reason goku went with the staying in reguler ssj and mastering stamina well i believe vegeta summarized it very nicely.
Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”
I am uncertain if Goten and Trunks are as strong as cell saga goku. i do believe Gohan has become decently weaker to at least a bit weaker then that level which to me doesn't seem to be such a huge gap. i still agree even if Goten and trunks were still at this level they should have quite easily beaten 18 even with a suit i admit that once punch should have been enough to take her out. Though the issue was that in the suit their maneuverability is quite limited.
The whole Dabura thing is very difficult to view cause i am one of those that personally believe that Gohan was a ss2 and it was basically just art errors, but i am not gonna go into this debate i will only say that from my perspective the whole Dabura thing is extremely confusing and i do apologize for bringing it up as it was my fault.
Now i am uncertain of this or not,but i detect a bit of an attitude in your post i am sure it is merely just how you phrased it, but i do ask pls try not to phrase your counterpoints in a manor like that if it can be helped.
Anyway i will simply say all i said in a simple phrase. I have no issue to believe the boys are more powerful than her and i understand that it is extremely difficult to fight in a suit which is why they resorted to the ki blast. all i am saying is that i do not see anywhere in this scene that in my view gives me the interpretation that they are more powerful then her. I do wonder however if she has gotten stronger.

[Hitiro]

the whole Trunks and Goten fighting evenly with Gohan and Vegeta is fairly impressive, but to be honest Vegeta was nowhere near fighting seriously and the second he went a little serious he sent trunks flying by mistake.

Well you're going to take the whole Vegeta not fighting seriously as a point that it's not as impressive as Goten fighting fairly evenly with Gohan. But when it comes to SSJ Gohan who wasn't fighting seriously against Perfect Cell who was using 100% speed you don't thinkg Gohan could but up a good fight against Perfect Cell? Yes it is my opinion that Gohan could handle Perfect Cell if he was serious and had the motivation to. But Gohan could, at least, put up a fairly even and decent fight against 100% Perfect Cell at the least.

Gohan was rusty the whole point of his practice with Goten is was to regain his fighting skills not his power alone he was holding back a bit during the fight.

This is really circumstantial. Gohan pretty much confirms that he has to be careful or Goten will surpass him. Whether Gohan had lost his power or not is not really the point. The point was that Goten could keep up with him no problem. Even if Gohan's fighting skills had waned and not his power then Goten still had to be pretty close to Gohan's level in order to force Gohan on the defensive. Because we all know that martial skill does not matter if you're above the person in every area. If they can't follow your speed or tank your punches because your 2x stronger than them then martial skill isn't going to save you. Martial skill only really makes a difference when both fighters are around the same level. Which is what we can attest some of Goku's battles to. At least prior to the Saiyan saga.

i know the ssj is written as 50x, but i sometimes wonder if it is static and does not change at all due to experience. Goten and Trunks were both able to turn ssj, but i wonder if they get the same boost as gohan and goku. The whole variations of the ssj shows that you can alter specific changes in how much power you can imrpove. The reason goku went with the staying in reguler ssj and mastering stamina well i believe vegeta summarized it very nicely.
Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

Well Goku mastering the SSJ form was merely to make it the most effective form to use. It certainly wasn't about increasing its power output beyond being able to use all of your energy without having to worry about maintaining the transformation. So Vegeta this sentence by Vegeta is right. They can use their full potential without having to worry about the strain on the body.

I am uncertain if Goten and Trunks are as strong as cell saga goku. i do believe Gohan has become decently weaker to at least a bit weaker then that level which to me doesn't seem to be such a huge gap. i still agree even if Goten and trunks were still at this level they should have quite easily beaten 18 even with a suit i admit that once punch should have been enough to take her out. Though the issue was that in the suit their maneuverability is quite limited.

I honestly doubt that Gohan became so much weaker that he couldn't fight Perfect Cell while he is unsuppressed. If we drop Gohan down to Goku's level in the Cell Games then there is no way he could hold off Dabra the way he did. And about Goten and Trunks that is exactly the point. They have to reign in their ability because they have to fight without tearing up the costume. I would imagine it would be incredibly hard to do what they did. If you think about it Any Z-senshi could rip off titanium armour as if it was paper. Goten and Trunks are wearing clothes that they could tear much easier than paper. From looking at the punching machine incident where the Z-senshi reigned in their strength and were still out performing every human it would mean they'd have to be very careful with the clothes. Adding the difficulty of movement in general to wearing something that is basically like rice paper to them and it's understandable why they opted for using Ki blasts considering they would have to maintain a level of control where they didn't destroy what they were wearing and at the same time use enough strength to beat #18(which would subsequently cause problems for their disguise).

The whole Dabura thing is very difficult to view cause i am one of those that personally believe that Gohan was a ss2 and it was basically just art errors, but i am not gonna go into this debate i will only say that from my perspective the whole Dabura thing is extremely confusing and i do apologize for bringing it up as it was my fault.

Well that is your opinion. I think that Gohan was fighting with him in just SSJ because even when Gohan lost half of his Ki during the Cell Games he was still superior to a Zenkai'd Perfect Cell. Unless you believe Gohan weakened enough in the last 7 years his SSJ2 power came down to Perfect Cell's level.

Now i am uncertain of this or not,but i detect a bit of an attitude in your post i am sure it is merely just how you phrased it, but i do ask pls try not to phrase your counterpoints in a manor like that if it can be helped.
Anyway i will simply say all i said in a simple phrase. I have no issue to believe the boys are more powerful than her and i understand that it is extremely difficult to fight in a suit which is why they resorted to the ki blast. all i am saying is that i do not see anywhere in this scene that in my view gives me the interpretation that they are more powerful then her. I do wonder however if she has gotten stronger.

Sorry if you think I'm giving you attitude. I read over my post and I don't see any real problem with it. I am a bit fickle when it comes to commentating on other peoples posts. As I've said before in other threads and posts I am always worrying whether my comments go too far even when the admins are dishing out bans or warnings I seem to conduct myself in a well enough manner that it doesn't seem offensive. Regardless I am always trying to make sure what I say doesn't add serve to poison the community and effect it in a negative way. Frankly, given how the scene is played out I honestly believe that the scene does place them above her. Otherwise she wouldn't have been in such a rush to end it. I can understand if she wasn't in a rush to end it. Then I would agree that the scene doesn't paint them as stronger than her. The fact that she was startled by how good they are even when Trunks is holding back is also pretty much a give away. She barely managed to dodge an attack that wasn't at full power too.

[hyperbeing1]

the whole Trunks and Goten fighting evenly with Gohan and Vegeta is fairly impressive, but to be honest Vegeta was nowhere near fighting seriously and the second he went a little serious he sent trunks flying by mistake.

Well you're going to take the whole Vegeta not fighting seriously as a point that it's not as impressive as Goten fighting fairly evenly with Gohan. But when it comes to SSJ Gohan who wasn't fighting seriously against Perfect Cell who was using 100% speed you don't thinkg Gohan could but up a good fight against Perfect Cell? Yes it is my opinion that Gohan could handle Perfect Cell if he was serious and had the motivation to. But Gohan could, at least, put up a fairly even and decent fight against 100% Perfect Cell at the least.

Gohan was rusty the whole point of his practice with Goten is was to regain his fighting skills not his power alone he was holding back a bit during the fight.

This is really circumstantial. Gohan pretty much confirms that he has to be careful or Goten will surpass him. Whether Gohan had lost his power or not is not really the point. The point was that Goten could keep up with him no problem. Even if Gohan's fighting skills had waned and not his power then Goten still had to be pretty close to Gohan's level in order to force Gohan on the defensive. Because we all know that martial skill does not matter if you're above the person in every area. If they can't follow your speed or tank your punches because your 2x stronger than them then martial skill isn't going to save you. Martial skill only really makes a difference when both fighters are around the same level. Which is what we can attest some of Goku's battles to. At least prior to the Saiyan saga.

i know the ssj is written as 50x, but i sometimes wonder if it is static and does not change at all due to experience. Goten and Trunks were both able to turn ssj, but i wonder if they get the same boost as gohan and goku. The whole variations of the ssj shows that you can alter specific changes in how much power you can imrpove. The reason goku went with the staying in reguler ssj and mastering stamina well i believe vegeta summarized it very nicely.
Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

Well Goku mastering the SSJ form was merely to make it the most effective form to use. It certainly wasn't about increasing its power output beyond being able to use all of your energy without having to worry about maintaining the transformation. So Vegeta this sentence by Vegeta is right. They can use their full potential without having to worry about the strain on the body.

I am uncertain if Goten and Trunks are as strong as cell saga goku. i do believe Gohan has become decently weaker to at least a bit weaker then that level which to me doesn't seem to be such a huge gap. i still agree even if Goten and trunks were still at this level they should have quite easily beaten 18 even with a suit i admit that once punch should have been enough to take her out. Though the issue was that in the suit their maneuverability is quite limited.

I honestly doubt that Gohan became so much weaker that he couldn't fight Perfect Cell while he is unsuppressed. If we drop Gohan down to Goku's level in the Cell Games then there is no way he could hold off Dabra the way he did. And about Goten and Trunks that is exactly the point. They have to reign in their ability because they have to fight without tearing up the costume. I would imagine it would be incredibly hard to do what they did. If you think about it Any Z-senshi could rip off titanium armour as if it was paper. Goten and Trunks are wearing clothes that they could tear much easier than paper. From looking at the punching machine incident where the Z-senshi reigned in their strength and were still out performing every human it would mean they'd have to be very careful with the clothes. Adding the difficulty of movement in general to wearing something that is basically like rice paper to them and it's understandable why they opted for using Ki blasts considering they would have to maintain a level of control where they didn't destroy what they were wearing and at the same time use enough strength to beat #18(which would subsequently cause problems for their disguise).

The whole Dabura thing is very difficult to view cause i am one of those that personally believe that Gohan was a ss2 and it was basically just art errors, but i am not gonna go into this debate i will only say that from my perspective the whole Dabura thing is extremely confusing and i do apologize for bringing it up as it was my fault.

Well that is your opinion. I think that Gohan was fighting with him in just SSJ because even when Gohan lost half of his Ki during the Cell Games he was still superior to a Zenkai'd Perfect Cell. Unless you believe Gohan weakened enough in the last 7 years his SSJ2 power came down to Perfect Cell's level.

Now i am uncertain of this or not,but i detect a bit of an attitude in your post i am sure it is merely just how you phrased it, but i do ask pls try not to phrase your counterpoints in a manor like that if it can be helped.
Anyway i will simply say all i said in a simple phrase. I have no issue to believe the boys are more powerful than her and i understand that it is extremely difficult to fight in a suit which is why they resorted to the ki blast. all i am saying is that i do not see anywhere in this scene that in my view gives me the interpretation that they are more powerful then her. I do wonder however if she has gotten stronger.

Sorry if you think I'm giving you attitude. I read over my post and I don't see any real problem with it. I am a bit fickle when it comes to commentating on other peoples posts. As I've said before in other threads and posts I am always worrying whether my comments go too far even when the admins are dishing out bans or warnings I seem to conduct myself in a well enough manner that it doesn't seem offensive. Regardless I am always trying to make sure what I say doesn't add serve to poison the community and effect it in a negative way. Frankly, given how the scene is played out I honestly believe that the scene does place them above her. Otherwise she wouldn't have been in such a rush to end it. I can understand if she wasn't in a rush to end it. Then I would agree that the scene doesn't paint them as stronger than her. The fact that she was startled by how good they are even when Trunks is holding back is also pretty much a give away. She barely managed to dodge an attack that wasn't at full power too.

I do not deny a ssj gohan with proper motivation and fighting seriously can put up a descent fight against perfect cell and may even have a chance at beating him, but i do not think he is rivaling his full power. The whole loss of half chi thing is fairly confusing to me and their are many interpretations of that scene what conclusions you make depends on how you see the scene.

I will admit goten was quite close to gohan in hand to hand combat capabilities but i do believe gohan being a bit more powerful. in other words i will say that physical capabilities gohan and goten for fairly even but in terms of energy projection and skill i would say gohan was superior. cannot find a good analogy at the moment i will give one if i can think of one.
anyway i think the best comparison is with kibito and gohan the guidebooks all say kibito is close to gohans base in raw power but it apears that kibito has inferior physical strength to him but may be able to match him in speed and energy projection. note i only mention this to compare that even if two beings are equal or one is stronger in actual power it is possible that one can be Superior in another way. the ginyu force is a great example in my view as burter and jeice were about sequel in power apparently but burter was much faster then the rest of the ginyu force and jeice has apparently much better skill with ki manipulation.
the whole dabura thing is very confusing i know i said this before but i will try to explain if you wish. goku did not determine dabura's power by sensing but rather by movement and from observation and when he compared him to cell it was kinda vague what cell he was compared to. He could be equal to the cell goku fought or even slightly weaker then perfect cell or maybe even to spc or just below him. anyway if you do believe ssj gohan to be decently stronger then even spc cell ,then it is possible for him to get decently weaker to the point if dabura who lets say is equel to full power perfect cell to give him trouble and even take a small lead. though can you show me the manga scenes where gohan fights dabura cause i mainly seen the anime version and i only saw the badly transilated versions of it. this does not have much of an effect of the main topic i am just curious.

Quick question in the cell games who was stronger in their base gohan or goku. how you answer may help me come to a conclusion with the ssj thing.

Anyway on the whole fight with 18 things i do concede they may be stronger then her i never doubted that i was merely saying showing surprise of ones feat does not mean they are inferior. I am also thinking she may have gotten a bit stronger and faster.Slightly off topic do you think when 18 fought vegeta that she was vastly stronger then him or was it just that she does not get tired cause some of the fight shows him holding fairly good though i am uncertain if she was holding back or not,though i found it interesting that 17 admitted that if the z fighters grouped up on her, she may not be able to beat them. Do you think he was factoring in the whole they are stronger then their data suggested thing.

i apologize for the confusion i suffer from autism and it is kinda hard for me to tell if i am given attitude or not and since this is over the internet it is even harder. Overall i do wanna note that trunks and goten had taken her as a serious threat and hold her in respect but i do admit they are superior in raw power at least. though i am personally thinking she may have gotten stronger over the years.
PS how do you that quote thing i am still not used to all of this stuff.

[Hugo Boss]

. Trunks can't control all his moves on the floor, but he can still fly.

Yeah, but he still has to stay connected to Goten, he can't move more than 10 inches or he'll rip the costume or fly away from Goten

. Goten only has to guide them on the floor.

and in the air, since he's carrying Trunks on his shoulder

. If they move too fast they could burst themselves. I don't get what you mean here.

If they move too fast they can rip the outfit

. Goten is holding Trunks, they don't need to worry about that.
. In the air they are both flying, it is pretty much Trunks who has to guide them while he can see. The problem is Goten not kicking.
. I still don't understand what you mean here. Even when Goten let Trunks and went to the other way, the outfit was only ripped by the kienzan.

What would you think is more difficult?
Trying to fight someone with a busted shoe?
or trying to fight someone while sitting on someone else's shoulders, only being able to use your arms, and having smaller limbs than the person you're fighting?

I'm not questioning what is more difficult, that's personal. What I don't understand is how you know the difference is so great. Do you think the costume prevents Trunks from using 50% of his strenght? If you consider that Goten was not kicking, that might be a possibility.

[dbgtFO]

. I still don't understand what you mean here. Even when Goten let Trunks and went to the other way, the outfit was only ripped by the kienzan.

The costume was ripped off by the boys, not the Kienzan:

Spoiler:

[Hugo Boss]

The kienzan passed through them one panel after, Goten's arms are up. The anime helps to show how it happened.

[Hitiro]

I do not deny a ssj gohan with proper motivation and fighting seriously can put up a descent fight against perfect cell and may even have a chance at beating him, but i do not think he is rivaling his full power. The whole loss of half chi thing is fairly confusing to me and their are many interpretations of that scene what conclusions you make depends on how you see the scene.

Considering Ki is what allows the fighters to surpass their physical limits then Gohan must have a rivalling Ki level for his speed to exceed that of Cell's. If would look something like this:

Cell
Physical Strength: 4
Physical Speed: 3
Ki: 500
Ki amplified Strength: 2,000
Ki amplified Speed: 1,500

Gohan
Physical Strength: 2
Physical Speed: 4
Ki: 500
Ki amplified Strength: 1,000
Ki amplified Speed: 2,000

I will admit goten was quite close to gohan in hand to hand combat capabilities but i do believe gohan being a bit more powerful. in other words i will say that physical capabilities gohan and goten for fairly even but in terms of energy projection and skill i would say gohan was superior. cannot find a good analogy at the moment i will give one if i can think of one.
anyway i think the best comparison is with kibito and gohan the guidebooks all say kibito is close to gohans base in raw power but it apears that kibito has inferior physical strength to him but may be able to match him in speed and energy projection.

I don't see anything that is wrong with this but it should be noted I think that Kibito isn't a martial artist. What he is using right now is probably his natural physical strength rather than compared to a Saiyan who more than likely has a higher natural physical strength and has also trained their body to the physical limits thus having even more physical strength. Goten would have to have a similar Ki level to Gohan to be so even with him. Martial Skill only really affects a fight with two individuals of equal strength. If Freeza had no martial arts experience whatsoever, for instance, it doesn't matter because all base Saiyan's are significantly outmatched by him, for an example. You either have to give Goten an incredibly high physical level that beats Gohan's and then you can put his Ki level as below Gohan's. Or a matching, or similar, physical level and and Ki level. Because if you lower his physical level then Goten's Ki has to be higher than Gohan's to balance it out.

note i only mention this to compare that even if two beings are equal or one is stronger in actual power it is possible that one can be Superior in another way. the ginyu force is a great example in my view as burter and jeice were about sequel in power apparently but burter was much faster then the rest of the ginyu force and jeice has apparently much better skill with ki manipulation.

Which is fair enough. But these natural and honed skills are offset by their battle powers. The higher the battle power the better these skills are. Considering they both have the same relative battle power then their differences become more apparent. But if Jeice has a battle power a million times higher than Burter then it isn't going to matter that Burter has a better physical speed than Jeice. Because Jeice is going to get a huge boost from his large Ki pool.

the whole dabura thing is very confusing i know i said this before but i will try to explain if you wish. goku did not determine dabura's power by sensing but rather by movement and from observation and when he compared him to cell it was kinda vague what cell he was compared to. He could be equal to the cell goku fought or even slightly weaker then perfect cell or maybe even to spc or just below him. anyway if you do believe ssj gohan to be decently stronger then even spc cell ,then it is possible for him to get decently weaker to the point if dabura who lets say is equel to full power perfect cell to give him trouble and even take a small lead. though can you show me the manga scenes where gohan fights dabura cause i mainly seen the anime version and i only saw the badly transilated versions of it. this does not have much of an effect of the main topic i am just curious.

All we see of the fight is the stone spit and Gohan wrestling with the sword. Both characters are significantly tired and we get from Vegeta that if Gohan was the way he was as a child then Dabra should be easy. You'll have to just look for the material yourself.

Quick question in the cell games who was stronger in their base gohan or goku. how you answer may help me come to a conclusion with the ssj thing.

Gohan is stronger in base if we go by the SSJ multipliers, which I do. Because for Gohan to be superior than Goku in any form he must have a higher Ki. Physical stats don't really mean much by this point because they're being offset by Ki. And as I said earlier physical stats are only really beneficial when the two fighters are of equal levels. Burter can't claim to be the fastest in the universe compared to Freeza's first form because Freeza's Ki gives him at least a 10x boost on his physical speed.

Anyway on the whole fight with 18 things i do concede they may be stronger then her i never doubted that i was merely saying showing surprise of ones feat does not mean they are inferior. I am also thinking she may have gotten a bit stronger and faster.Slightly off topic do you think when 18 fought vegeta that she was vastly stronger then him or was it just that she does not get tired cause some of the fight shows him holding fairly good though i am uncertain if she was holding back or not,though i found it interesting that 17 admitted that if the z fighters grouped up on her, she may not be able to beat them. Do you think he was factoring in the whole they are stronger then their data suggested thing.

I honestly don't think #18 can increase her strength like other people because her strength isn't natural. I think it would require Dr. Gero to boost her strength any more than it currently is. For the #18 and SSJ Vegeta fight the whole thing seems to point to she was quite stronger than Vegeta. I know people say it is because Vegeta got tired during the fight while she remained the same. But none of Vegeta's hits actually did any damage even while he was at full power. Yet she managed to damage him while admitting she was holding back.

i apologize for the confusion i suffer from autism and it is kinda hard for me to tell if i am given attitude or not and since this is over the internet it is even harder. Overall i do wanna note that trunks and goten had taken her as a serious threat and hold her in respect but i do admit they are superior in raw power at least. though i am personally thinking she may have gotten stronger over the years.
PS how do you that quote thing i am still not used to all of this stuff.

It's fine. It is hard to tell how people are acting over the internet rather than a proper conversation. As for Trunks and Goten taken her as a serious threat. I am not so sure about that. In the manga all they admit to is they need SSJ. Which is true because Base Saiyan's are still not much to sniff at without their SSJ forms. They also say they are still at a disadvantage with SSJ which I would say is due to their clothes more than anything. It is much easier to deal with her with Ki blasts. She was incredibly scared of a weakened Ki blast and felt the need to rush the fight, probably because she felt if she didn't act fast it would be her loss.

To do the quoting thing you just {quote="Name"}{/quote} but with [] instead of {}.

The kienzan passed through them one panel after, Goten's arms are up. The anime helps to show how it happened.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying the Kienzan was the cause of the rip? It may be in the anime's case but this is the manga. Frankly if the Kienzan was the cause of the rip it would have injured at least one of them even if they are both trying to avoid it in the suit. What I see from those panels is they ripped the clothes while trying to avoid the Kienzan and the Kienzan passed through the gap they created when it ripped.

[hyperbeing1]

I do not deny a ssj gohan with proper motivation and fighting seriously can put up a descent fight against perfect cell and may even have a chance at beating him, but i do not think he is rivaling his full power. The whole loss of half chi thing is fairly confusing to me and their are many interpretations of that scene what conclusions you make depends on how you see the scene.

Considering Ki is what allows the fighters to surpass their physical limits then Gohan must have a rivalling Ki level for his speed to exceed that of Cell's. If would look something like this:

Cell
Physical Strength: 4
Physical Speed: 3
Ki: 500
Ki amplified Strength: 2,000
Ki amplified Speed: 1,500

Gohan
Physical Strength: 2
Physical Speed: 4
Ki: 500
Ki amplified Strength: 1,000
Ki amplified Speed: 2,000

Not necessarily i think that skill has a effect on how well you cam amp yourself with ki. For Example i am gonna use the goku and captain ginyu fight. We can make a good guess captain ginyu is stronger then base goku at the time due to when goku goes kaioken he goes to 180,000 which half of it is 90,000. Cap ginyu was 120,000 if i remember accuratly. that would mean according to your logic.
Ginyu'd all around stats> goku stats. while ginyu is stronger then goku he did say this.
Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P10.3
Ginyu: “He’s fast! Is his speed greater than mine?!”
Also while he had a much greater power level then him, goku was able to hold his own for most of the fight.

I will admit goten was quite close to gohan in hand to hand combat capabilities but i do believe gohan being a bit more powerful. in other words i will say that physical capabilities gohan and goten for fairly even but in terms of energy projection and skill i would say gohan was superior. cannot find a good analogy at the moment i will give one if i can think of one.
anyway i think the best comparison is with kibito and gohan the guidebooks all say kibito is close to gohans base in raw power but it apears that kibito has inferior physical strength to him but may be able to match him in speed and energy projection.

I don't see anything that is wrong with this but it should be noted I think that Kibito isn't a martial artist. What he is using right now is probably his natural physical strength rather than compared to a Saiyan who more than likely has a higher natural physical strength and has also trained their body to the physical limits thus having even more physical strength. Goten would have to have a similar Ki level to Gohan to be so even with him. Martial Skill only really affects a fight with two individuals of equal strength. If Freeza had no martial arts experience whatsoever, for instance, it doesn't matter because all base Saiyan's are significantly outmatched by him, for an example. You either have to give Goten an incredibly high physical level that beats Gohan's and then you can put his Ki level as below Gohan's. Or a matching, or similar, physical level and and Ki level. Because if you lower his physical level then Goten's Ki has to be higher than Gohan's to balance it out.

i would like to repeat that gohan was not likely going at full effort. The reason i repeat this is because gohan is trying to regain his intuition and fighting instinct back. for most of the time he was on earth and enjoying peace. the most notable thing he did was use his ki abilities to to stop some crime. When preparing for the tournament he seemed to train on mostly regaining his skills back. Which would mean he was not fighting fully seriously and while he did admit they could surpass him it just means they are close. in short if gohan and goten had fought seriously who do you think would have won. my money is on gohan for a lot of reasons.

note i only mention this to compare that even if two beings are equal or one is stronger in actual power it is possible that one can be Superior in another way. the ginyu force is a great example in my view as burter and jeice were about sequel in power apparently but burter was much faster then the rest of the ginyu force and jeice has apparently much better skill with ki manipulation.

Which is fair enough. But these natural and honed skills are offset by their battle powers. The higher the battle power the better these skills are. Considering they both have the same relative battle power then their differences become more apparent. But if Jeice has a battle power a million times higher than Burter then it isn't going to matter that Burter has a better physical speed than Jeice. Because Jeice is going to get a huge boost from his large Ki pool.

I repeat my Ginyu and goku battle point. i also like to say that when Ginyu introduced burter he said he was the fastest in the universe and may actually have been faster then at least first form freeza. you can argue its ginyu lying to make burter feel better but when i see goku being faster then burter and ginyu admitting he is faster then himself you can either draw that it goes from Goku>ginyu(who is more powerful)> burter(who is weaker then goku) or that it can be Goku>ginyu>burter. if you go by your logic then it would have been Ginyu>goku(without kaio-ken)>burter. I personally believe that when one raises power and other stats it is usually that they are raising their other stats with them.

the whole dabura thing is very confusing i know i said this before but i will try to explain if you wish. goku did not determine dabura's power by sensing but rather by movement and from observation and when he compared him to cell it was kinda vague what cell he was compared to. He could be equal to the cell goku fought or even slightly weaker then perfect cell or maybe even to spc or just below him. anyway if you do believe ssj gohan to be decently stronger then even spc cell ,then it is possible for him to get decently weaker to the point if dabura who lets say is equel to full power perfect cell to give him trouble and even take a small lead. though can you show me the manga scenes where gohan fights dabura cause i mainly seen the anime version and i only saw the badly transilated versions of it. this does not have much of an effect of the main topic i am just curious.

All we see of the fight is the stone spit and Gohan wrestling with the sword. Both characters are significantly tired and we get from Vegeta that if Gohan was the way he was as a child then Dabra should be easy. You'll have to just look for the material yourself.

ok cause i seem to recall that Dabura had the high ground if by a little.
Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”
Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”
while i do see that in this instance as well as many previous instances gohan has gotten weaker then he was a kid. We do see dabura has a descent edge apparently partially due to his magic. In this regards it would see gohan is slightly weaker then dabura but still close enough to at least have a chance of winning the fight. though i am uninterested in debating at this it has been done to death and i lack preparation. which is why i won't add more to this and i pls ask if you can at least disregard this scene.

Quick question in the cell games who was stronger in their base gohan or goku. how you answer may help me come to a conclusion with the ssj thing.

Gohan is stronger in base if we go by the SSJ multipliers, which I do. Because for Gohan to be superior than Goku in any form he must have a higher Ki. Physical stats don't really mean much by this point because they're being offset by Ki. And as I said earlier physical stats are only really beneficial when the two fighters are of equal levels. Burter can't claim to be the fastest in the universe compared to Freeza's first form because Freeza's Ki gives him at least a 10x boost on his physical speed.

Ok though i see things a bit differently. i believe gohan and goku basically equal within base. But gohan was able to gain a bit more power from turning ssj due to his much greater potential. Though i admit this has little to do with the debate.

Anyway on the whole fight with 18 things i do concede they may be stronger then her i never doubted that i was merely saying showing surprise of ones feat does not mean they are inferior. I am also thinking she may have gotten a bit stronger and faster.Slightly off topic do you think when 18 fought vegeta that she was vastly stronger then him or was it just that she does not get tired cause some of the fight shows him holding fairly good though i am uncertain if she was holding back or not,though i found it interesting that 17 admitted that if the z fighters grouped up on her, she may not be able to beat them. Do you think he was factoring in the whole they are stronger then their data suggested thing.

I honestly don't think #18 can increase her strength like other people because her strength isn't natural. I think it would require Dr. Gero to boost her strength any more than it currently is. For the #18 and SSJ Vegeta fight the whole thing seems to point to she was quite stronger than Vegeta. I know people say it is because Vegeta got tired during the fight while she remained the same. But none of Vegeta's hits actually did any damage even while he was at full power. Yet she managed to damage him while admitting she was holding back.

ok i see things about the same way.i do know however even if she cannot raise her strength and speed she can at least learn new tricks. also did you notice that 16, 17, and 18 combined have power rivaling perfect cell. at least thats how i see it. 16 rivals cells imprerfect form. add 17 it rivals cell semi perfect form. add 18 and it rivals cells perfect form. it does not mean much i just noticed this.

i apologize for the confusion i suffer from autism and it is kinda hard for me to tell if i am given attitude or not and since this is over the internet it is even harder. Overall i do wanna note that trunks and goten had taken her as a serious threat and hold her in respect but i do admit they are superior in raw power at least. though i am personally thinking she may have gotten stronger over the years.
PS how do you that quote thing i am still not used to all of this stuff.

It's fine. It is hard to tell how people are acting over the internet rather than a proper conversation. As for Trunks and Goten taken her as a serious threat. I am not so sure about that. In the manga all they admit to is they need SSJ. Which is true because Base Saiyan's are still not much to sniff at without their SSJ forms. They also say they are still at a disadvantage with SSJ which I would say is due to their clothes more than anything. It is much easier to deal with her with Ki blasts. She was incredibly scared of a weakened Ki blast and felt the need to rush the fight, probably because she felt if she didn't act fast it would be her loss.

ok i guess i agree with that mostly. also as for the previous thing i beleived she was less scared for herself and more scared for the people of the audience. if she recalls the fight in the tournament she may remember that their control over the techniques at least goten who she is not sure is the head could damage the area badly which her husband and daughter are at. Anyway like i said the main topic of our debate which is goten and trunks being stronger then 18 i do not disagree with i just do not see it that scene it itself implying that she was scared merely surprised. She could have underestimated their strength and assumed they were weaker. at least thats how i see it.

To do the quoting thing you just {quote="Name"}{/quote} but with [] instead of {}.

thanks as you notice i am putting it to use at the moment.
over all i do concede and if you can pls answer my questions in pm or something. Have a great day and i wish we can have more proper debates in the future.

[Hugo Boss]

The kienzan passed through them one panel after, Goten's arms are up. The anime helps to show how it happened.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying the Kienzan was the cause of the rip? It may be in the anime's case but this is the manga. Frankly if the Kienzan was the cause of the rip it would have injured at least one of them even if they are both trying to avoid it in the suit. What I see from those panels is they ripped the clothes while trying to avoid the Kienzan and the Kienzan passed through the gap they created when it ripped.

You can see that Goten was still holding Trunks when the costume ripped, because his arms are up in Trunks' direction. If he was trying to avoid the kienzan while still holding Trunks, it's weird that the costume would rip by that. He let Trunks the moment the disc passed through them. That's maybe how I and the anime staff saw the scene.

[Hitiro]

Not necessarily i think that skill has a effect on how well you cam amp yourself with ki. For Example i am gonna use the goku and captain ginyu fight. We can make a good guess captain ginyu is stronger then base goku at the time due to when goku goes kaioken he goes to 180,000 which half of it is 90,000. Cap ginyu was 120,000 if i remember accuratly. that would mean according to your logic.
Ginyu'd all around stats> goku stats. while ginyu is stronger then goku he did say this.
Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P10.3
Ginyu: “He’s fast! Is his speed greater than mine?!”
Also while he had a much greater power level then him, goku was able to hold his own for most of the fight.

According to my logic my point still stands. A 30,000 gap isn't going to be significant enough to cause a problem here.

Goku
Physical Strength: 2
Physical Speed: 3
Ki(Converted to BP): 90,000
Ki-amp Strength: 180,000
Ki-amp Speed: 270,000

Ginyu
Physical Strength: 2
Physical Speed: 2
Ki(Converted to BP): 120,000
Ki-amp Strength: 240,000
Ki-amp Speed: 240,000

^As you can see from the example above my logic more or less still works. Now if we were to say that the gap were much bigger. Something like Ginyu being 2x stronger. Then Goku's speed superiority loses it's significance.

Hypothetical Ginyu(2x stronger than Goku in Ki)
Physical Strength: 2
Physical Speed: 2
Ki(Converted to BP): 180,000
Ki-amp Strength: 360,000
Ki-amp Speed: 360,000

i would like to repeat that gohan was not likely going at full effort. The reason i repeat this is because gohan is trying to regain his intuition and fighting instinct back. for most of the time he was on earth and enjoying peace. the most notable thing he did was use his ki abilities to to stop some crime. When preparing for the tournament he seemed to train on mostly regaining his skills back. Which would mean he was not fighting fully seriously and while he did admit they could surpass him it just means they are close. in short if gohan and goten had fought seriously who do you think would have won. my money is on gohan for a lot of reasons.

I don't disagree Gohan would win in a fight against Goten. But the fight would be a like the Piccolo Jr. vs. Goku fight. Gohan had a lot of difficulty defending against Goten's attacks. While it's understandable for Gohan to pull his punches against his brother there is no reason for him to not defend against his brother seriously. But as we see in the fight Gohan was struggling to defend against his brothers attacks.

I repeat my Ginyu and goku battle point. i also like to say that when Ginyu introduced burter he said he was the fastest in the universe and may actually have been faster then at least first form freeza. you can argue its ginyu lying to make burter feel better but when i see goku being faster then burter and ginyu admitting he is faster then himself you can either draw that it goes from Goku>ginyu(who is more powerful)> burter(who is weaker then goku) or that it can be Goku>ginyu>burter. if you go by your logic then it would have been Ginyu>goku(without kaio-ken)>burter. I personally believe that when one raises power and other stats it is usually that they are raising their other stats with them.

Well, I'd refer you to the point I made earlier. It is clear throughout the series that characters who are closer in strength to each other will have more noticeable advantages, like speed. You're basing Ginyu being stronger than Goku but losing in speed purely on Ginyu being stronger without noting how much stronger Ginyu is. The difference between Ginyu and Goku is negligible which means it's fine for Goku to out-speed him. But if Ginyu was 2x stronger than Goku then Goku's speed advantage is going to mean nothing. Like I pointed out earlier. As I've said several times. Specific stats like speed or strength are only going to be relevant when characters are close in strength. Which is pretty much implied throughout the story. But as we know these sorts of things don't matter if somebody is vastly stronger than another character.

ok cause i seem to recall that Dabura had the high ground if by a little.
Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”
Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”
while i do see that in this instance as well as many previous instances gohan has gotten weaker then he was a kid. We do see dabura has a descent edge apparently partially due to his magic. In this regards it would see gohan is slightly weaker then dabura but still close enough to at least have a chance of winning the fight. though i am uninterested in debating at this it has been done to death and i lack preparation. which is why i won't add more to this and i pls ask if you can at least disregard this scene.

He does have the high ground in this. Which isn't what I argued. I was saying that Gohan did get weaker. But he was still more or less even with a character who is Perfect Cell tier. Even if he was losing slightly. As Goku said in the quote from the manga you just supplied. "It ain't like he's completely losing."

Ok though i see things a bit differently. i believe gohan and goku basically equal within base. But gohan was able to gain a bit more power from turning ssj due to his much greater potential. Though i admit this has little to do with the debate.

That would form a problematic point seeing as if characters SSJ forms had varying benefits then why would characters like Vegeta imply that it doesn't matter what transformation he thought in if he was superior in his base form? If SSJ Goku is better than SSJ Vegeta but Base Vegeta is better than Base Goku then dialogue like what Vegeta provides should be pretty much ignored.

ok i see things about the same way.i do know however even if she cannot raise her strength and speed she can at least learn new tricks. also did you notice that 16, 17, and 18 combined have power rivaling perfect cell. at least thats how i see it. 16 rivals cells imprerfect form. add 17 it rivals cell semi perfect form. add 18 and it rivals cells perfect form. it does not mean much i just noticed this.

I'm not sure on this point because we don't know how much of a boost the cyborgs provided. To be honest I think they provided more than just simple addition considering, at least in the case of the jump from Semi-Perfect to Perfect, that Cell got at least 4x stronger in order to be 2x stronger than Super Vegeta who would be 2x stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell.

ok i guess i agree with that mostly. also as for the previous thing i beleived she was less scared for herself and more scared for the people of the audience. if she recalls the fight in the tournament she may remember that their control over the techniques at least goten who she is not sure is the head could damage the area badly which her husband and daughter are at. Anyway like i said the main topic of our debate which is goten and trunks being stronger then 18 i do not disagree with i just do not see it that scene it itself implying that she was scared merely surprised. She could have underestimated their strength and assumed they were weaker. at least thats how i see it.

I'm not sure why #18 would be scared for the audience considering Trunks has incredible Ki control. She should be pretty sure who's on top considering the attack was aimed well at her. Goten couldn't even hit Trunks with his. It didn't really matter about that area either considering they were in the sky. And attacks would pretty much avoid the audience easily. Unless she started deflecting Ki attacks downwards.

over all i do concede and if you can pls answer my questions in pm or something. Have a great day and i wish we can have more proper debates in the future.

No problem, and you're welcome with the quoting stuff.

You can see that Goten was still holding Trunks when the costume ripped, because his arms are up in Trunks' direction. If he was trying to avoid the kienzan while still holding Trunks, it's weird that the costume would rip by that. He let Trunks the moment the disc passed through them. That's maybe how I and the anime staff saw the scene.

If he let Trunks go the moment the Kienzan passed through them Goten would have either lost his arms or Trunks would have lost his legs. So that wouldn't make much sense. We don't see the Kienzan until after the rip and the ripping sound effect happened while the Kienzan was not even in the panel. Obviously the anime staff are going to take liberty with the story. Because they had Mr. Popo tanking 2 SSJ children in one scene which is a ridiculous thing to believe. So while I appreciate that the ripping could have have happened with a Kienzan in the anime. The manga panels certainly paint a different picture. At least for me and several others. At this point in the story clothes are basically just the consistency of butter to the characters. They can tear ridiculous materials like nothing. So it is more likely it tore from their own incredible strength considering their arm and leg placements.