Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Reread the 22nd Budokai, specifically the part where the Crane Hermit is about to have Chiaotzu kill both Goku and Tenshinhan before Roshi blasts him.
Chiaotzu could fully paralyze people stronger than him. What do you think he could do to people who were barely 2/3 his strength?
And what's stopping Chiaotzu from simply breaking the hold?
Because Crane Hermit was so pissed off and their was no one else to boss around. If Chiaotzu could have solo'd both Goku and Tien, then why couldn't he beat Krillin? This would also imply that Chiaotzu would be able to kill both Tambourine and Cymbal with just his psychic power. Those two are around Goku and Tien's levels, right?
Raditz couldn't break out of it. Even if Raditz was weakened, I doubt he had only half of his power level left.
Besides... Chiaotzu is dumb. Some number riddles could distract him.
Angelus wrote:Because Crane Hermit was so pissed off and their was no one else to boss around. If Chiaotzu could have solo'd both Goku and Tenshinhan, then why couldn't he beat Krillin? This would also imply that Chiaotzu would be able to kill both Tambourine and Cymbal with just his psychic power. Those two are around Goku and Tenshinhan's levels, right?
Raditz couldn't break out of it. Even if Raditz was weakened, I doubt he had only half of his power level left.
Goku and Tenshinhan weren't in a positition to outwit Chiaotzu like Krillin did.
Sure, why not?
If the full nelson was this insurmountable obstacle that worked on beings orders of magnitude stronger than the user, then it would have been used again. Raditz was just beat all to hell.
Last edited by Kamiccolo9 on Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That's crazy. O_O
22nd WMAT Chiaotzu >>> Everyone there? He could also beat Drum then?
There was no other canon villains to do it to and be effective. Gohan and Krillin were too small to pull off a headlock on a colossal Nappa. Their hands/arms would be too small to pull off a headlock like that. Piccolo was dead when Vegeta was fighting. Frieza, Cell, Cell Jr, and Buu would survive a hole in their torso. 19 an 20 would drain your energy if you put them in a headlock because they can touch you with their palms. 16, 17, and 18 could self-destruct. Piccolo was a statue when Dabura was fighting.
And time for some versus...
Androids Saga Base Gohan VS Cell Games Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu
[No Kienzan/Tribeam]
100% Final Form Frieza VS Androids Saga Piccolo with no weighted clothing (Pre-ROSAT/Pre-Kami fusion)
Kamiccolo + Kamiccolo Potara Fusion VS Full Power SSJ3 Goku (Otherworld body)
Zangya VS Cell Games Piccolo
[No wires/threads magic]
Super Perfect Cell VS 25th WMAT SSJ2 Gohan
[No Instant Transmission]
former versus:
Spoiler:
King Piccolo VS Tarble (armored but with no scouter)
[No tail grabbing/cutting]
Captain Ginyu VS Anime Great Apes King Vegeta, Infant Broly, Kid Prince Vegeta, Paragus (first appearance), Nappa, and TV Special Bardock and his team
[All the apes solely attack Ginyu. No change body or tail cutting/grabbing]
Giran VS Fangs the Vampire
Kibito VS SSJ Future Trunks (TV Special, first transformation after Future Gohan's death)
[No magic materialization]
Frieza Saga SSJ Goku VS Damaged Android 16 (Post Semi-Perfect Cell fight)
[No self destruction]
Buff Garlic Jr. VS Vegeta (Post-Dende Healing on Namek)
[This is the filler Makyo-Star Enhanced and Immortal Garlic Jr, except in this fight he's not actually Immortal but retains the same level of power]
Android #8 (bloodlusted) VS Spike the Devilman
[No devilmite beam]
Burter VSPiccolo (No weighted clothing on, Pre-Nail Fusion, first arrival on Planet Namek)
[If Burter can't handle it alone, Jeice steps in to help]
Last edited by Angelus on Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Angelus wrote:
Androids Saga Base Gohan VS Cell Games Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu
[No Kienzan/Tribeam]
100% Final Form Freeza VS Androids Saga Piccolo with no weighted clothing (Pre-ROSAT/Pre-Kami fusion)
Kamiccolo + Kamiccolo Potara Fusion VS Full Power SSJ3 Goku (Otherworld body)
Zangya VS Cell Games Piccolo
[No wires/threads magic]
Super Perfect Cell VS 25th WMAT SSJ2 Gohan
[No Instant Transmission]
- Gohan stomps Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu will little to no effort.
- Freeza murders Piccolo. Fusing with Kami lead to Piccolo's power level skyrocketing. Without that, he ain't putting up a fight at all.
- Goku one shots. SSJ3 is just way too big of a jump in terms of raw power. Add on to that that Goku can maintain the form longer when he's deceased, and Kamiccolo Potara fused ain't doing shit against Goku.
- Zangya wins but barely as Piccolo puts up on hell of a fight. I have her power level equal of that of Cell Games Future Trunks.
- Super Perfect Cell after a long fight. Gohan as a SSJ2 during Majin Boo arc was nowhere near as strong as he was when he first became a SSJ2 against Cell, that's stated multiple times.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Hugo Boss wrote:
I'm not sure if you are familiar with Goku's character, you are picturing Goku as he actually care about cautiousness at all. It was pretty much Goku's and Vegeta's obligation to erase Boo from existance, but the plot required the next generation to clean their mess. I can see Goku taking the risk and believing in his son, but still this is no direct statement to prove anything yet. From narrative perspective, SS3 Gotenks could be the ultimate weapon Goku was waiting for, even though he wasn't factoring SS3 or Evil Boo.
And Gotenks was never stated to be stronger than Vegeta prior the training in the RoSaT, so there is nothing to be even contradicted. He only has vague implications about having a huge power and speed and one direct statement from Piccolo about him not being capable of beating Evil Boo.
Here, tell me what makes more sense:
1:
Toriyama: "I can't have Gotenks finish off Fat Boo already, as that would end the story arc early. I'll have Majin Boo transform, but I want to express how strong Gotenks is. I'll put in statements implying he'll be stronger than SSJ 3 Goku, but never have them contradicted, so people know how strong Gotenks is without having an anti climactic ending."
or
2:
Toryiama: "Lulz I throw in over 3 statements saying Gotenks is stronger than Fat Boo and Goku only to have them actually have no meaning whatsoever and be contradicted by a guidebook that comes out after I finish the series!"
Babidi wins. Pilaf is smaller and seems like an idiot.
Still Babidi. Supreme Kai feared Babidi's magic. There has to be a reason for that. At first, he didn't even know that Babidi had Dabura, Yakon, and Pui Pui.
Angelus wrote:
Piccolo and Goku win. This dou killed a more powerful foe, Raditz.
A fluke victory made possible through Raditz' incompetence and Gohan's timely interference.
Yes, but if Goku can pull off a full nelson headlock on Raditz, then he would also be able to do the same with Chiaotzu. Piccolo charges up a Special Beam Cannon and..
Right, and that's why it's a good fight. Chances of victory are slim, but possible if they play it smart.
Zombie wrote:Babidi (No magic and possession) vs Pilaf.
Babidi (This time with all his magic but no possession) vs 3rd suppression Freeza.
Babidi still has a barrier that can stop an attack from Majin Buu, so he could just sit there and let Freeza beat on it all day until he exhausts himself to death. Or he could just teleport Freeza into the Demon Realm for a BFR. Or he could just make Freeza's head pop off. Lots of options here.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
In Brightest Day wrote:
Right, and that's why it's a good fight. Chances of victory are slim, but possible if they play it smart.
If by "slim" you mean "it's conceivable that Chiaotzu could suffer a stroke due to his mental stress at some point during the fight, pass out, and have Goku and Piccolo beat on him while he's unconscious until he dies," then sure. It's possible.
Goku and Piccolo only beat Raditz because of Gohan. If we're taking freak accidents into play, then any matchup in the versus thread could result in any possility.
How much damage did you think Gohan did to Raditz, for it to actually shift the tides of the fight? It was one headbutt. A single one that cracked his armor.
Angelus wrote:How much damage did you think Gohan did to Raditz, for it to actually shift the tides of the fight? It was one headbutt. A single one that cracked his armor.
That left him in pain and with difficulty in moving, and made him comment on it as a factor in not being able to break free of Goku. Gohan's attack clearly did some pretty significant damage. In realistic terms, it probably cracked Radditz's ribs, which would explain the pain and the trouble he had.
In Brightest Day wrote:
Right, and that's why it's a good fight. Chances of victory are slim, but possible if they play it smart.
If by "slim" you mean "it's conceivable that Chiaotzu could suffer a stroke due to his mental stress at some point during the fight, pass out, and have Goku and Piccolo beat on him while he's unconscious until he dies," then sure. It's possible.
Goku and Piccolo only beat Raditz because of Gohan. If we're taking freak accidents into play, then any matchup in the versus thread could result in any possility.
Hah. It wouldn't be a freak accident, as the difference between Raditz and Chaozu is demonstrable. Both Goku and Piccolo have a wide array of attacks that would wipe out Chaozu (he's not surviving the same Kamehameha Wave Raditz blocked, let alone the Makankōsappō) and with a half pie decent strategy against a character even less likely to notice a game plan than Raditz... again, it's certainly plausible.
In Brightest Day wrote:
Right, and that's why it's a good fight. Chances of victory are slim, but possible if they play it smart.
If by "slim" you mean "it's conceivable that Chiaotzu could suffer a stroke due to his mental stress at some point during the fight, pass out, and have Goku and Piccolo beat on him while he's unconscious until he dies," then sure. It's possible.
Goku and Piccolo only beat Raditz because of Gohan. If we're taking freak accidents into play, then any matchup in the versus thread could result in any possility.
Hah. It wouldn't be a freak accident, as the difference between Raditz and Chaozu is demonstrable. Both Goku and Piccolo have a wide array of attacks that would wipe out Chaozu (he's not surviving the same Kamehameha Wave Raditz blocked, let alone the Makankōsappō) and with a half pie decent strategy against a character even less likely to notice a game plan than Raditz... again, it's certainly plausible.
This is assuming that Chiaotzu doesn't simply blow them up at the beginning. Raditz was playing around with them. Don't we normally assume bloodlust in these things?
Hugo Boss wrote:
I'm not sure if you are familiar with Goku's character, you are picturing Goku as he actually care about cautiousness at all. It was pretty much Goku's and Vegeta's obligation to erase Boo from existance, but the plot required the next generation to clean their mess. I can see Goku taking the risk and believing in his son, but still this is no direct statement to prove anything yet. From narrative perspective, SS3 Gotenks could be the ultimate weapon Goku was waiting for, even though he wasn't factoring SS3 or Evil Boo.
And Gotenks was never stated to be stronger than Vegeta prior the training in the RoSaT, so there is nothing to be even contradicted. He only has vague implications about having a huge power and speed and one direct statement from Piccolo about him not being capable of beating Evil Boo.
Here, tell me what makes more sense:
1:
Toriyama: "I can't have Gotenks finish off Fat Boo already, as that would end the story arc early. I'll have Majin Boo transform, but I want to express how strong Gotenks is. I'll put in statements implying he'll be stronger than SSJ 3 Goku, but never have them contradicted, so people know how strong Gotenks is without having an anti climactic ending."
or
2:
Toryiama: "Lulz I throw in over 3 statements saying Gotenks is stronger than Fat Boo and Goku only to have them actually have no meaning whatsoever and be contradicted by a guidebook that comes out after I finish the series!"
I don't think any of these makes sense, because there is no direct statement between Gotenks and those said characters (at least in the fashion of others in the same arc). The only way to know how strong Gotenks is in relation to them is by making him fight and show what he is capable of. Really, it's only in his SS3-form that he lives up to his hype, since he was a match for Evil Boo.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
This is assuming that Chiaotzu doesn't simply blow them up at the beginning. Raditz was playing around with them. Don't we normally assume bloodlust in these things?
In character, within reason. Where is the fun if we just look at characters as numbers? And the difference isn't huge anyway.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
This is assuming that Chiaotzu doesn't simply blow them up at the beginning. Raditz was playing around with them. Don't we normally assume bloodlust in these things?
In character, within reason. Where is the fun if we just look at characters as numbers? And the difference isn't huge anyway.
Six hundred something, as opposed to 4 hundred something, is a huge difference.
When he is trying to get Goku off of him he curses Gohan for having left him weakened.
In fact, Gohan's attack was the only attack that actually did damage to Radditz besides Piccolo's finisher attack. Before Gohan, nothing that Goku or Piccolo had done had actually hurt him. Gohan was the defining reason why they won that fight and even so it required Goku to sacrifice himself.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
This is assuming that Chiaotzu doesn't simply blow them up at the beginning. Raditz was playing around with them. Don't we normally assume bloodlust in these things?
In character, within reason. Where is the fun if we just look at characters as numbers? And the difference isn't huge anyway.
Six hundred something, as opposed to 4 hundred something, is a huge difference.
It's not quite one-shot material though, IMO, and there are two of them with attacks that will seriously fuck Chaozu up if they're smart about it.
If this were Tenshinhan, Krillin or Yamcha we were dealing with here, I would get it. But Chaozu is another deal altogether.
