Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the end?

[Kendamu]

It's better in the long run to make sure they become good guys so that, whether they're alive or dead, they're not going to cause a bunch of trouble.

Most of the people you name are small timers compared to Vegeta. Roshi's perversion, Kuririn's cheating, and Yamcha's kleptomania are . You've unfairly equivocated all of that with mass murder and genocide. Vegeta has been terrible up until the end. If he had been left dead at the end of the Freeza arc or at least not allowed to stay on Earth, Cell wouldn't have reached his final form and Buu wouldn't have been revived. He's caused more problems than he's solved.

The point, though, was if Goku is supposed to be judging and punishing Vegeta like he's Superman or something, then he might as well be judging the rest of the cast, too. Their misgivings aren't as bad as Vegeta (unless you count Piccolo Daimaou's crimes as Piccolo Jr's crimes as well), but I can't see someone who is going to kill Vegeta for the sake of justice as the kind of guy who just lives with people like Mutenroshi, Krillin, and Lunch or befriends people like Yamcha, Bulma, and Ten.

In any case, the cast of Dragonball is full of people who Goku helped turn around because that's the Super Shonen guy that he is. Their crimes get more serious as the power, the stakes, and the power gets larger, but Goku still keeps the ability to see the good in people that nobody else would be able to turn around. Without that, Dragonball loses its magic and just becomes the "hope of the universe" Superman speech tenfold.

[superfunk]

Pretty sure Toriyama intended him to be at least not evil by the end of the series, and like everyone said he would probably still go to hell when he dies anyway. But you still seem to be applying real life to a show for young boys about super powered alien monkeys.

[Gaffer Tape]

That's like saying someone can't like a villain in a story, i liked that Vegeta killed so many people, he is a more entertaining character because of it. You can complain about writing and in universe gripes, but as an out of universe discussion i don't see how you can get upset. This is like the people i see laughing at Yamcha fans for liking a character that doesn't do much in z.

I don't think anyone's saying someone can't like Vegeta as a character, just that it's employing quite a bit of obfuscating to say that, "Oh... he's good enough. So what if he killed tons of people and never had any remorse for it? He's still a good guy in my book." To use your Yamucha example, I'm a Yamucha fan, and, yeah... I don't like being made fun of for it. I think, at his best he's a good character, and a lot of fans don't give him the credit he deserves. Still, there's a difference between that and saying, "What are you talking about? Yamucha's awesome! He wins tons of fights. And if it wasn't for him, Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, and Boo would never have been defeated!" There's defending a character, and then there's just being a bit delusional.

[Cure Dragon 255]

That much is pretty true.I cant deny it.I wish someone had said that before the whole "CHRIS BENOIT CAN BE FORGIVEN" shit. That way I would have just said "That's true,yeah I will calm down then" I seriously am going to try to erase from my mind.

I FUCKING LOVE YOU Gaffer Tape.


Ok I'm going to leave for real this time. People are right, getting so obsessed over fictional characters' morality is unhealthy and even if I stay I'm not much of an asset for my side.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He punched Trunks in the face and nearly killed Bulma at the tournament. These are repeats of what he did in the Cell arc.

Seriously? That was training. If you are afraid of getting hit, you don't start martial arts, and Trunks wasn't a newbie in martial arts. And when did he nearly killed Bulma at the tournament?

He was still a bad guy in Cell arc, there is no question in that.

It's evil, from my point of view, because he's again putting his own ego over the lives of everyone else.

"I will risk my life in order to succeed a plan that will most likely succeed IMO, and even if it doesn't, we have Gohan & Gotenks to solve the problem instantly." Yep, totally evil.

Proof that they'll know every single thing you ask them.

Shenlong & Porunga will grant any wish, except:

• Repeat the same wish (Shenlong only)
• Revive more than one person (Porunga only, formerly)
• If a large group of people is requested, only those that died within 1 year (unknown if this applies for Porunga)

And we have one instance where Shenlong answered a question, when he told them how to make a Super Saiyan God, which was something that only the dead knew.

Because he did nothing to make up for all the evil acts he committed.

What evil acts? Yeah, he was going to torture to death Goku & co. by letting them inside that room, but look at the "torture" scene with Bulma... that guy isn't capable of doing something really evil directly.

Has this person committed any murder? No? Okay then.

Vegeta hasn't committed murder?

No, "BOG is BS because it's BS". Which is consistent with the rest of BOG. It's a sad day when Majin Buu has to be the voice of reason.

You are definitely not the voice of reason when you post these things...

[rereboy]

The wish wasn't to revive everyone except the ones who Enma will definitely send to hell once they die, so Porunga's wish doesn't settle anything. Vegeta's fate once he dies is left ambiguous which, in my opinion, is great.

[Gaffer Tape]

And when did he nearly killed Bulma at the tournament?

When Vegeta fired his blast at the tournament, a panel shows that Blooma and the others were literally just a few feet away from the impact. It is a wonder she didn't die.

[rereboy]

And he didn't look at where he was aiming or seemed concerned at all with who he might have hit. Even if we assume that he actually took care to avoid hitting her, he could have just easily hit someone like Roshi or Yamcha and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't care in the least if he did.

[voltlunok]

I don't think anyone's saying someone can't like Vegeta as a character, just that it's employing quite a bit of obfuscating to say that, "Oh... he's good enough. So what if he killed tons of people and never had any remorse for it? He's still a good guy in my book." To use your Yamucha example, I'm a Yamucha fan, and, yeah... I don't like being made fun of for it. I think, at his best he's a good character, and a lot of fans don't give him the credit he deserves. Still, there's a difference between that and saying, "What are you talking about? Yamucha's awesome! He wins tons of fights. And if it wasn't for him, Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, and Boo would never have been defeated!" There's defending a character, and then there's just being a bit delusional.

I too am a Yamcha fan and I agree that he pretty much gets the short end of the stick a lot. Yeah he doesn't do a whole lot but at least he doesn't cause half of the show's major villains. I think to use an example you used earlier Gaffer. Vegeta caused the problem, not by accident but on purpose. He caused it and then realizes the huge mistake he made! Does he apologize for it? No. He just says 'I'll deal with it! You guys don't even bother!'

Now in some ways you could maybe take this as Vegeta taking responsibility for his own screw up but in reality it is his pride talking. Vegeta's pride causes him to do terrible, stupid things and he is shown to be completely unrepentant for it. At that point it shouldn't matter if Vegeta helped solve the problem. He caused it, shows no sign of guilt over it and clearly has that attitude of 'I'd do it again too!'. I think that in the end Vegeta shouldn't have been revived. I think as punishment for his escapades as Majin Vegeta he should have been deemed evil and Porunga should have left him dead even with his sacrificial attempt to kill Buu. But in Dragon Ball world that sacrifice I guess is enough of noble deed for Porunga to see him as kinda good even though just moments before it he murdered maybe...200 people? Maybe more.

I don't want Vegeta to be shown suffering horrible torture or something for his crimes but I think something a little more then 'you don't get your body after you die.' is in order for the guy. Cause that honestly for everything he did throughout the series...like a slap on the wrist.

[Kid Buu]

And when did he nearly killed Bulma at the tournament?

When Vegeta fired his blast at the tournament, a panel shows that Blooma and the others were literally just a few feet away from the impact. It is a wonder she didn't die.

Bulma must suffer from Sakura Haruno syndrome to love a man that nearly killed her.

[RandomGuy96]

Seriously? That was training. If you are afraid of getting hit, you don't start martial arts, and Trunks wasn't a newbie in martial arts. And when did he nearly killed Bulma at the tournament?

He was still a bad guy in Cell arc, there is no question in that.

Except Trunks only got involved in the first place against his much bigger and stronger father because his father said that he would just stand still and block. Then he punched Trunks in the face. Then Trunks cried and said Vegeta promised not to punch him. Then Vegeta said he technically never said that, and told Trunks to stop being a cry baby.

At the tournament. He fired a blast which took out scores of people a few feet away from Bulma. It's a miracle she didn't die.

"I will risk my life in order to succeed a plan that will most likely succeed IMO, and even if it doesn't, we have Gohan & Gotenks to solve the problem instantly." Yep, totally evil.

Yep, evil. Because that whole plan only exists because he wanted to stroke his ego. Oh, and they wouldn't have Gohan and Gotenks, because his plan required Kibitoshin to use all of his ki, and if it failed, Goku and Kibitoshin would both die. So Buu would be free to rampage throughout the galaxy.

Shenlong & Porunga will grant any wish, except:
Repeat the same wish (Shenlong only)
Revive more than one person (Porunga only, formerly)
If a large group of people is requested, only those that died within 1 year (unknown if this applies for Porunga)
And we have one instance where Shenlong answered a question, when he told them how to make a Super Saiyan God, which was something that only the dead knew.

Again, no limits fallacy. The "Shenron/Porunga can grant any wish (except these wishes we won't reveal until later)" statement doesn't literally mean that they know everything. Not even BOG proves that (not that I was considering it anyway).

What evil acts? Yeah, he was going to torture to death Goku & co. by letting them inside that room, but look at the "torture" scene with Bulma... that guy isn't capable of doing something really evil directly.

I was talking about Vegeta. Then again, Pilaf did try to kill the protagonists repeatedly, and if you count the anime (which is fair, since you're counting BOG) he had a bunch of skeletons in his basement.

Vegeta hasn't committed murder?

He has. This hypothetical guy who has bad thoughts but hasn't committed any actual crimes hasn't.

You are definitely not the voice of reason when you post these things...

Buu is, in-universe, on the topic of Vegeta.

I don't think anyone's saying someone can't like Vegeta as a character, just that it's employing quite a bit of obfuscating to say that, "Oh... he's good enough. So what if he killed tons of people and never had any remorse for it? He's still a good guy in my book." To use your Yamucha example, I'm a Yamucha fan, and, yeah... I don't like being made fun of for it. I think, at his best he's a good character, and a lot of fans don't give him the credit he deserves. Still, there's a difference between that and saying, "What are you talking about? Yamucha's awesome! He wins tons of fights. And if it wasn't for him, Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, and Boo would never have been defeated!" There's defending a character, and then there's just being a bit delusional.

Eh... it's more like you saying "Yamcha is a skilled fighter, good with women, and a great worker". Yamcha's losses are just objective events, rather than subjective judgements of his skils. Vegeta fans don't deny that he killed all those people. They just try to say he's not that bad of a guy at the end of the day despite that.

[Kid Buu]

What quote are you referring to when you say Buu is the voice of reason?

[RandomGuy96]

What quote are you referring to when you say Buu is the voice of reason?

In BOG's extended cut, Dende says that all of "their" saiyans are righteous, so they can be used for the ritual. Mr. Buu questions why Vegeta would be considered righteous, and Krillin basically responds with "well, he hasn't killed any innocent civilians or directly aided a planet-destroying villain in the past few years".

[coola]

I might over react a little bit, but, it is kinda how real world work too, countries work together with one SOB, because he is not as cruel as other SOB. Without Vegeta help, our heroes probably wouldn't survive Namek event, using their DB's is out of question too

[rereboy]

I might over react a little bit, but, it is kinda how real world work too, countries work together with one SOB, because he is not as cruel as other SOB. Without Vegeta help, our heroes probably wouldn't survive Namek event, using their DB's is out of question too

The topic is not about them working together and agreeing to not try to kill each other, its about them being all friends and family. Heck, Vegeta was more in the gang's lives than Tenshinhan.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Except Trunks only got involved in the first place against his much bigger and stronger father because his father said that he would just stand still and block. Then he punched Trunks in the face. Then Trunks cried and said Vegeta promised not to punch him. Then Vegeta said he technically never said that, and told Trunks to stop being a cry baby.

And Vegeta was correct, Trunks should stop being a cry baby. If he was training martial arts, he should have been prepared for it. Vegeta didn't "abuse" him as you say, he trained him, and getting used of getting hit is also part of the training.

At the tournament. He fired a blast which took out scores of people a few feet away from Bulma. It's a miracle she didn't die.

And you think he was aiming at Bulma?

Yep, evil. Because that whole plan only exists because he wanted to stroke his ego. Oh, and they wouldn't have Gohan and Gotenks, because his plan required Kibitoshin to use all of his ki, and if it failed, Goku and Kibitoshin would both die. So Buu would be free to rampage throughout the galaxy.

And that was totally in Vegeta's mind. Besides, Vegeta

Again, no limits fallacy. The "Shenron/Porunga can grant any wish (except these wishes we won't reveal until later" statement doesn't literally mean that they know everything. Not even BOG proves that (not that I was considering it anyway).

Do you have any poof that Shenlong/Porunga wouldn't be able to grant any wish involving knowledge?

I was talking about Vegeta. Then again, Pilaf did try to kill the protagonists repeatedly, and if you count the anime (which is fair, since you're counting BOG) he had a bunch of skeletons in his basement.

BoG is written by Toriyama, the anime is written by random Toei writers. And the skeletons in his basement don't have to be from Pilaf's victims, they could have easily be found in graveyards.

He has. This hypothetical guy who has bad thoughts but hasn't committed any actual crimes hasn't.

But we are talking about Vegeta now.

[RandomGuy96]

And Vegeta was correct, Trunks should stop being a cry baby. If he was training martial arts, he should have been prepared for it. Vegeta didn't "abuse" him as you say, he trained him, and getting used of getting hit is also part of the training.

Except when you basically tell someone you won't hit them and do it anyway.

And you think he was aiming at Bulma?

I don't think he was aiming at anyone in particular. I think he just didn't care.

And that was totally in Vegeta's mind. Besides, Vegeta

Quit backtracking. A minute ago, you said Vegeta was good for coming up with the plan. Now you're claiming that Vegeta didn't actually know shit. Where's this evidence he just wasn't thinking at all? Because he specifically said they'd draw everyone's genki to its absolute limits, and was explicitly told about the easier possibilities of bringing Gohan/Gotenks and fusing.

Do you have any poof that Shenlong/Porunga wouldn't be able to grant any wish involving knowledge?

That's not how burden of proof works. Do you have any proof that they're omniscient and can answer any knowledge related question? I'd think that, if Shenron was omniscient, he wouldn't have let King Piccolo blow him into bloody chunks. The dragon probably would have brought the Namekians Vegeta killed back to life, too, as they were only excluded due to literal wording, and if he's omniscient, he should know the intent behind the words.

BoG is written by Toriyama, the anime is written by random Toei writers. And the skeletons in his basement don't have to be from Pilaf's victims, they could have easily be found in graveyards.

BOG is PARTLY written by Toriyama, and it's very arguable whether it has any place in the main continuity.

Okay, now this is just getting silly.

But we are talking about Vegeta now.

Okay. What point are you trying to make regarding Vegeta?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Except when you basically tell someone you won't hit them and do it anyway.

He never said he wouldn't hit him.

I don't think he was aiming at anyone in particular. I think he just didn't care.

He definitely didn't want to kill his wife, given that he gave his life to protect her.

Quit backtracking. A minute ago, you said Vegeta was good for coming up with the plan. Now you're claiming that Vegeta didn't actually know shit. Where's this evidence he just wasn't thinking at all? Because he specifically said they'd draw everyone's genki to its absolute limits, and was explicitly told about the easier possibilities of bringing Gohan/Gotenks and fusing.

Yeah, Vegeta came with the plan to save the universe. Maybe he had thought that Kaioshin wouldn't have enough ki, maybe he hadn't. He was confident to his plan, and he chose that plan because he believed that the Earthlings should take responsibility for once (even though Boo was his & Goku's responsibility, but that's another story). There was nothing evil in that.

That's not how burden of proof works. Do you have any proof that they're omniscient and can answer any knowledge related question?

Yes, he has already done so twice. In the manga, he could tell who were good guys & who were really bad guys. In BoG, he could answer a question that no one in the entire universe knew.

I'd think that, if Shenron was omniscient, he wouldn't have let King Piccolo blow him into bloody chunks.

No one asked him "when will you die?" for him to know. Like I said, he would answer anything you ask him with his power to grant wishes, meaning that he magically gains knowledge on spot.

BOG is PARTLY written by Toriyama, and it's very arguable whether it has any place in the main continuity.

BoG was written almost entirely by Toriyama. He basically wrote the entire script.

Okay. What point are you trying to make regarding Vegeta?

If Vegeta still felt happy about killing all these people in the past, Porunga wouldn't have brought him back to life.

Okay, now this is just getting silly.

No, it was silly since the beginning. You are saying that Vegeta is beating his son, wants to kill his wife, lies to himself about loving them, is so evil that he devices difficult plans so that these plans would fail and get the universe destroyed, and him killed, and anything that proves you wrong, like Porunga & Super Saiyan God, is stupid because they are stupid...

[Gaffer Tape]

I might over react a little bit, but, it is kinda how real world work too, countries work together with one SOB, because he is not as cruel as other SOB. Without Vegeta help, our heroes probably wouldn't survive Namek event, using their DB's is out of question too

The topic is not about them working together and agreeing to not try to kill each other, its about them being all friends and family. Heck, Vegeta was more in the gang's lives than Tenshinhan.

And there's also the fact that, while on Namek, that argument actually does apply. The heroes work with Vegeta because they have no choice, and he is an asset to their cause, at least for the moment. So, yeah, that's a realistic scenario. After that, though... well, not only is he an arrogant, mass-murdering bastard, but he's an arrogant, mass-murdering bastard who is actively working against the goals of the rest of the heroes and making their bad situations worse. So, no, it's really difficult to understand why they're not only working with him but are friends with him. Morality aside, it's just not often a very logical or beneficial arrangement.

Also, a little off-topic, but it just reminds me of FUNimation's interpretation of Kuririn's line in Battle of Gods justifying why Vegeta was okay for the God ritual: "We'd be lost without him!" I swear I almost sneezed up a Raisinet when watching that in the theatres.

[Kid Buu]

What quote are you referring to when you say Buu is the voice of reason?

In BOG's extended cut, Dende says that all of "their" saiyans are righteous, so they can be used for the ritual. Mr. Buu questions why Vegeta would be considered righteous, and Krillin basically responds with "well, he hasn't killed any innocent civilians or directly aided a planet-destroying villain in the past few years".

That's hilarious. From what I remember, the cast also questions wherever Goku is pure of heart too. Would have been interesting to see them go in-depth about that.