The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

It's not baseless assumption. Goku's statement is never proven wrong, it still stands.

Goku tells Piccolo that Gotenks will be stronger than him, when Piccolo sees SSJ Gotenks he says "yeah... your ki really is absolutely incredible"

"really is"

like he already had an expectation. Which was stronger than SSJ3 Goku and Fat Boo like Goku said he would be

And what I'm saying about base Gotenks is, Piccolo says when Gotenks isn't strong enough, yet with SSJ Gotenks he never complains about his power, he didn't say "you're still not strong enough"

[Hugo Boss]

You are reading things that are not written there. Piccolo never said SS Gotenks was more/less powerful than Fat Boo, he only said Gotenks really had a incredible power.., which is not a prove of anything.

What Goku said has no meaning without a direct comparison in the fashion that Boo Arc has tons of (like, for example: Trunks being a bit stronger than Goten; Goku and Vegeta being stronger than Gohan when he fought Cell; Gotenks-Boo being stronger than Goku and Gohan; Evil Boo being stronger than Goku and Vegeta etc).

I think that If you want your point to be convincing, you have to provide prove, not ask others to prove you are wrong.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm still waiting on evidence for the rule that supposedly applies to every single work of fiction ever.

[rereboy]

In the end we can conclude this: even though there's no definite proof either way, there's far more stuff in the manga implying that SSJ Gotenks is stronger than Majin Vegeta than there's implying otherwise.

[Angelus]

GT SSJ Trunks (Shadow Dragon Saga) VS Movie 10 LSSJ Broly
[Will his Toei hax be enough to overcome his childhood movie bully?]

Cell Games Tien + Krillin Potara Fusion VS Manga Semi-Perfect Cell
[No Kienzan/Tribeam]

Bujin and Transformed Kogu VS ASSJ Vegeta and Future Trunks (Post-1st day ROSAT)

23rd WMAT Tien and Yamcha Fusion Dance VS Nappa (no armor)
[No tribeam. No fusion time limit]

Bio-Broly VS End of Z Piccolo (no weighted clothing on)

Android 14 VS Kibito
[No magic materialization]

former versus:

Spoiler:

Androids Saga Base Gohan VS Cell Games Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu
[No Kienzan/Tribeam]

100% Final Form Frieza VS Androids Saga Piccolo with no weighted clothing (Pre-ROSAT/Pre-Kami fusion)

Kamiccolo + Kamiccolo Potara Fusion VS Full Power SSJ3 Goku (Otherworld body)

King Piccolo VS Tarble (armored but with no scouter)
[No tail grabbing/cutting]

Zangya VS Cell Games Piccolo
[No wires/threads magic]

[Hellspawn28]

1. Broli stomps. GT Trunks is likely much weaker then his Buu saga counter part.

2. I guess Krillhinhan could win but I have feeling that Cell might end up winning

3. Nappa wins. If it was Saiyan saga Yamuhan then he might have a better chance.

4. EOZ Piccolo should win. Bio Broli was a water down clone of the original. I would put Bio Broli around Semi Perfect Cell level at best.

5. Kibito

[Lord Beerus]

GT SSJ Trunks (Shadow Dragon Saga) VS Movie 10 LSSJ Broly
[Will his Toei hax be enough to overcome his childhood movie bully?]

Cell Games Tenshinhan + Krillin Potara Fusion VS Manga Semi-Perfect Cell
[No Kienzan/Tribeam.]

Bujin and Transformed Kogu VS ASSJ Vegeta and Future Trunks (Post-1st say ROSAT)

23rd WMAT Tenshinhan and Yamcha Fusion Dance VS Nappa (no armor)
[No tribeam. No fusion time limit]

Bio-Broly VS End of Z Piccolo (no weighted clothing on)

Android 14 VS Kibito
[No magic materialization]

- Broly stomps. Not even GT hax is enough.
- Semi-Perfect Cell. Without the Kienzan or Tribeam how can Tenshinhan + Krillin Potara fused put up a fight?
- Vegeta and Future Trunks take this one.
- Nappa. No contest
- Piccolo one shots.
- Daizenshuu 7 states that Kibito's power level is enough to give Gohan a difficult fight as long as he was not a Super Saiyan. And Android 14 got curbstomped by Future Trunks in his base form so... Kibito wins.

[Angelus]

Oh, what if it's movie 8 LSSJ Broly?
Future Trunks actually had to briefly turn SSJ to kill Android 14.

[Super SaiyaJon]

Oh, what if it's movie 8 LSSJ Broly?
Future Trunks actually had to briefly turn SSJ to kill Android 14.

I'm sure GT Trunks would still be curb stomped. He is presumably weaker than his Buu saga counterpart as he stopped training during the peace.


This is how I personally have it:
Future Trunks Base << Gohan Base (25WMAT) ~ Kibito

Trunks used base (sans his finisher), and 25WMAT Gohan is a good bit stronger than him (in my books), so I believe Kibito could handle 14.

[In Brightest Day]

How did Trunks "curbstomp" Android 14? I watched the movie like two days ago. 14 toyed with and dominated Trunks in base, pushed him to go Super Saiyan and then still gave him trouble.

He should crush Kibito.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Right. Super Saiyan Trunks was definitely fighting #14 off-screen for a bit, so it wasn't like he just effortlessly pummeled him.

[Angelus]

That's because the scenes were cut to show Vegeta and Goku also fighting the other Androids. If you just focus on SSJ Future Trunks' scenes, this is basically what happens IIRC: Future Trunks turns SSJ, Android 14 punches him a couple of times, Future Trunks then goes for a kill slash and reverts back to base, Android 14 explodes.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

You are reading things that are not written there. Piccolo never said SS Gotenks was more/less powerful than Fat Boo

Goku said he would be. 3 times. Never contradicted.

he only said Gotenks really had a incredible power.., which is not a prove of anything.

Key word is REALLY. Goku said Gotenks would be stronger than Fat Boo. Piccolo says his ki really is absolutely incredible.

If it was just a general power statement Piccolo would've just said "Your ki is absolutely incredible"

What Goku said has no meaning

Why? This isn't real life where someone can be lying and you'll never find out. Had SSJ Gotenks had been weaker than Fat Boo we would've found out. But nothing establishes that Gotenks was weaker than Fat Boo or Goku. Thus leaving it as fact.

There's no secret meaning behind his quote.

I think that If you want your point to be convincing, you have to provide prove, not ask others to prove you are wrong.

Again this isn't real life, we can't just assume Goku was lying when there's nothing suggesting he was. He said Gotenks would be stronger than himself and Fat Boo and nothing goes against it. The burden of proof is on you to prove it wrong, otherwise, it's fact.

Yes, Goku was wanting to find someone to take his place, and he temporarily did that with Gohan. Then he did it with the boys, because they became stronger than him, they just couldn't save the world due to other circumstances (fusion time, absorbtion, plot, etc.) Goku's prediction came true, someone stronger than him came along to fight Buu. It was never contradicted, and its a rule of DB that if a statement is wrong, it will be noted as such.

I'm still waiting on evidence for the rule that supposedly applies to every single work of fiction ever.

I'm not legitimately calling it a rule. And I'm not applying it to every single piece of fiction.

What I'm trying to say is when there are no feats to suggest anything, all we have to go by is statements.

There is no secret meanings behind what is said.

It's said for a reason.

Every statement, unless contradicted later, is always taken as fact. That's how DB has always worked.It was never brought up whether Gotenks was weaker than Goku's prediction or not, so there's no reason to discard it.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku never actually said Gotenks would be stronger than himself. He told Piccolo that he told Boo someone stronger than him would appear, which is bullshit, considering that was never stated anywhere.

Other than that, I think Super Saiyan Gotenks would utterly pulverize Fat Boo without any trouble.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Goku never actually said Gotenks would be stronger than himself. He told Piccolo that he told Boo someone stronger than him would appear, which is bullshit, considering that was never stated anywhere.

Other than that, I think Super Saiyan Gotenks would utterly pulverize Fat Boo without any trouble.

There's two explanations

1. Goku is going crazy

2. AT forgot to create the panel with Goku saying that to Boo, and there was some sort of retcon when Goku said that to Piccolo

Also, Piccolo was still under the impression that Gotenks would be stronger than Goku based on Goku telling him that, and Piccolo never contradicts Goku's statement.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Not really. Piccolo is already convinced that Goku was holding-back and could've finished Fat Boo if he fought all-out. So he's under the impression that he never saw what Super Saiyan 3 was really capable of. Everything said after only pertains to fusion being enough to defeat Fat Boo. With that, Super Saiyan Gotenks doesn't need to be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku to beat Fat Boo because both of them can accomplish a feat like that. Goku's comment ("I told him someone stronger than me would appear and he seemed happy") was an off-hand remark at best.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if he was going crazy. Goku didn't seem to challenge the idea of Gohan being gone for good, even though he was never brought back before, so ehh.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Goku's statement was never contradicted. Piccolo never noted Gotenks was weaker than expected, and to his expectations Gotenks, would be stronger than Goku, since that's what he heard from Goku.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yeah, and Piccolo never saw Goku fight all-out in Super Saiyan 3, so it doesn't matter.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Piccolo's sensed Goku's ki in SSJ 3, so it does still matter.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Doesn't change the fact that he said Goku never tried, so he would have no idea of how strong he really was. At best he'd be compared to a not trying Goku, but we know everything fusion related is compared to Majin Boo.

Piccolo doesn't need to say the fusion is weaker than he expected if it was already much stronger (Isn't that the point?) than Boo to begin with. That wouldn't even make sense. Context. When Base Gotenks forms, Piccolo says he's powerful, but not enough to defeat Majin Boo. Super Saiyan Gotenks appears, Piccolo acknowledges his power, which is most likely greater than Boo's. Simple.