Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Putting Freeza at 140 million instead of his official 120 million is what ultimately bloats everything in the end. Not to mention Semi Cell, Perfect Cell, SSJG2 Vegeta and SSJG2/3 Trunks are way to high.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

putting Freeza at 140 million doesn't bloat anything. In fact, it makes it easier to keep the base saiyans < Freeza and makes the gap actually accurate.

SSJ Vegeta was rivalling 2nd stage Cell, and I can't see 2nd Gr SSJ being less than 1.5x boost. I already find it ridiculous of me making Cell's power up like a 1.2x increase

Warm-up Cell has to be 2x Vegeta, he tanked Vegeta's kick with a smile. and SSJ Gr 3 is implied to be a massive power up

[ZombieVito]

putting Freeza at 140 million doesn't bloat anything. In fact, it makes it easier to keep the base saiyans < Freeza and makes the gap actually accurate.

SSJ Vegeta was rivalling 2nd stage Cell, and I can't see 2nd Gr SSJ being less than 1.5x boost. I already find it ridiculous of me making Cell's power up like a 1.2x increase

Warm-up Cell has to be 2x Vegeta, he tanked Vegeta's kick with a smile. and SSJ Gr 3 is implied to be a massive power up

This is your problem right here. Nowhere in the manga or any guidebook is this ever stated or implied.

Putting Freeza at 140 million will make Trunks higher, then Goku should be higher, then Piccolo should be higher, etc. It bloats everything little by little.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

putting Freeza at 140 million doesn't bloat anything. In fact, it makes it easier to keep the base saiyans < Freeza and makes the gap actually accurate.

SSJ Vegeta was rivalling 2nd stage Cell, and I can't see 2nd Gr SSJ being less than 1.5x boost. I already find it ridiculous of me making Cell's power up like a 1.2x increase

Warm-up Cell has to be 2x Vegeta, he tanked Vegeta's kick with a smile. and SSJ Gr 3 is implied to be a massive power up

This is your problem right here. Nowhere in the manga or any guidebook is this ever stated or implied.

Putting Freeza at 140 million will make Trunks higher, then Goku should be higher, then Piccolo should be higher, etc. It bloats everything little by little.

So what gap do you use for tanking feats ?

Even if I put Freeza @ 120 mil, his Mecha form has to be >= Namek SSJ Goku. And I made the Trunks/Freeza gap smaller than I would normally think it is

[ZombieVito]

putting Freeza at 140 million doesn't bloat anything. In fact, it makes it easier to keep the base saiyans < Freeza and makes the gap actually accurate.

SSJ Vegeta was rivalling 2nd stage Cell, and I can't see 2nd Gr SSJ being less than 1.5x boost. I already find it ridiculous of me making Cell's power up like a 1.2x increase

Warm-up Cell has to be 2x Vegeta, he tanked Vegeta's kick with a smile. and SSJ Gr 3 is implied to be a massive power up

This is your problem right here. Nowhere in the manga or any guidebook is this ever stated or implied.

Putting Freeza at 140 million will make Trunks higher, then Goku should be higher, then Piccolo should be higher, etc. It bloats everything little by little.

So what gap do you use for tanking feats ?

Even if I put Freeza @ 120 mil, his Mecha form has to be >= Namek SSJ Goku. And I made the Trunks/Freeza gap smaller than I would normally think it is

Again with the has to be. When was that ever stated? The only thing implying this is Freeza's comment and that sure is by no means a confirmation. He wouldn't have brought his father if he really thought he could beat him.

I can see initial Semi Cell at 800 million base on your list. That should minimize the list a good deal.

Another thing is having SSJG2 Vegeta only 60% to SSJ Goku (50%). That is pure bloat. It was only stated that Goku is stronger, nothing more. Him being at 2-2.25 billion will still make that statement work just fine.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

He knew Goku would be stronger. For him to be confident I couldn't imagine him still being weaker than Namek Goku, expecting to fight someone stronger than that, and expecting his Dad who's weaker than his previous self to help? Mecha Freeza ~ SSJ Namek Goku at the least

Let's pretend for a second that Freeza is 120 on this list. That puts him at 70% of Namek Goku. No you're saying that initial 2nd stage Cell at 800 mil is good, which puts him a 1.4x No.16, or No.16 at 70% of Cell. How is it Goku didn't tank any of Freeza's hits and Cell tanks No.16's? No way is it a 1.4x gap

Vegeta being at 60% of Goku is pure bloat ? 50% MSSJ Goku > SSJ Gr 3 Trunks is what the story implies. I only didn't put it for the sake of being minimalistic

[ZombieVito]

How would Freeza know Goku got stronger exactly? And yes Cold would be of use, the same way Vegeta said Krillin and Gohan would be against Freeza.

You also take taking feats way too seriously. Piccolo tanked Goku's Super Kamehameha without any noticeable injuries.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Freeza knows about zenkais, hence why he got rid of the saiyans early.

Piccolo had plot armor. There's no way the 2nd stage Cell/No.16 gap is the same as the Freeza/Goku gap. That's ridiculous

[RandomGuy96]

tried a base saiyan < Freeza list, and ultimately failed... pick this apart for me and tell me what to change:

Alright...

Well, first thing's first, Zombie has a point. Freeza doesn't really need to be that strong. Goku utterly wrecked him, with Freeza only getting in 2-3 hits and a ki attack. Heck, Goku trolled him at one point by making it look like his hits were doing something when they weren't, and made him vomit up blood with one quick jab. Even Freeza's powered up "finishing move" couldn't do significant damage to Goku. I also disagree that Freeza needs to be stronger than SS Namek Goku. If the most arrogant guy in the universe states that he MIGHT be able to PROBABLY beat a guy, a guy who he has little way of measuring, and still wants to bring back-up on top of this... well, there's wiggle room. Trunks doesn't need to be much higher than Freeza either, he just one-shotted ~70% Freeza. Anyway.

The gap between Mecha Freeza and the androids seems unnecessarily large. As I've said before, future 17's statements, as well as Vegeta's description of energized 19, suggest a relatively small jump in power in those three years. Moreover, the gap between 18 and Vegeta seems excessive, as Vegeta was losing stamina every moment of the battle while 18 wasn't, and he still lasted a while against her. Even after she explicitly said she'd go serious on him. The 18/17 gap doesn't seem to have much point to it either, unless you're taking every bit of hyperbole spoken by 17 completely literally.

Never thought I'd say this, but Imperfect Cell seems a bit lower relative to 17/Piccolo actually. Anyway, there's another drastically overkill gap in the jump from Imperfect to Semi-Cell. First of all, why assume that initial Cell is the one that wrecked 16, and not full power Cell? His comment about testing his new strength wouldn't have much meaning otherwise. Two, why assume the power-up was even that significant in battle power? His durability remained the same. Three, you don't need that much of a gap just to tank and one-shot someone. At least, the series never showed that you needed to have a gap that big. For some examples, Krillin one-shotted the Cultivars with presumably non-amplified ki blasts, and Piccolo thought he and Goku could take Raditz together, even after Raditz tanked a battle power of 328 (of course, Raditz showed more power, necessitating Goku's sacrifice).

Holy hell SSG3 is a big jump . Again, any particular reason that initial Cell has to be over twice as strong as Vegeta? For one, it should be noted that Vegeta was fighting in a stamina-draining form for a while by that point, and likely wasn't at full capacity. More importantly... all Cell did was tank one physical blow from a somewhat worn out Vegeta and then three-shot him. You don't think that's something someone could do at a x1.5 or so advantage? The gigantic SS2 multiplier also seems bloated, but that's neither here nor there considering the base saiyan vs Freeza discussion at hand. Back to that: as noted, the gap between SSG2 Vegeta and Goku doesn't need to be that large. He just said that Goku was stronger... and Goku could have been at 55% or something considering his exact wording.

Full Power Perfect Cell being THAT high seems... unlikely, at least. Remember that Perfect Cell explicitly said he'd use his full speed on SS Gohan. While he was much faster than Gohan, he wasn't so fast that he was a blur, and Gohan could still dodge and land hits. If SS Gohan's true speed isn't dimensions below Perfect Cell's true speed, they should be in the same range. Unless Cell is just REALLY slow relative to his battle power. I feel like Vegeta should be closer to Gohan than Goku in the Buu arc before the Majin power-up, as the gap between him and Goku then was supposed to be similar to the gap they had at the Cell Games, but again that's neither here nor there.

Let's pretend for a second that Freeza is 120 on this list. That puts him at 70% of Namek Goku

That'd put him at 80% actually... which, when considering how one-sided it was, would go along pretty well with Toriyama's recent indirect statements that you can put up a good fight against a stronger opponent if you have good skill and stamina and are 85% of them.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Well, first thing's first, Zombie has a point. Freeza doesn't really need to be that strong. Goku utterly wrecked him, with Freeza only getting in 2-3 hits and a ki attack. Heck, Goku trolled him at one point by making it look like his hits were doing something when they weren't, and made him vomit up blood with one quick jab. Even Freeza's powered up "finishing move" couldn't do significant damage to Goku. I also disagree that Freeza needs to be stronger than SS Namek Goku. If the most arrogant guy in the universe states that he MIGHT be able to PROBABLY beat a guy, a guy who he has little way of measuring, and still wants to bring back-up on top of this... well, there's wiggle room. Trunks doesn't need to be much higher than Freeza either, he just one-shotted ~70% Freeza. Anyway.

The main purpose of this list anyway is Freeza > Base Saiyans. Even if I lowered Mecha Freeza, I feel it would just make the Trunks/Freeza gap more appropriate. Trunks was confident in taking on full power Freeza, so it could be as large as 1.5x gap (which even I think is kinda unnecessary.

The gap between Mecha Freeza and the androids seems unnecessarily large. As I've said before, future 17's statements, as well as Vegeta's description of energized 19, suggest a relatively small jump in power in those three years.

I only put SSJ Vegeta like 2x Mecha arc Trunks. Isn't he supposed to rival Future 17? 40-45% Future 17 < 1 arm Gohan < Mecha arc Trunks < Android arc Vegeta =< Future 17 seems to fit fine.

Moreover, the gap between 18 and Vegeta seems excessive, as Vegeta was losing stamina every moment of the battle while 18 wasn't, and he still lasted a while against her. Even after she explicitly said she'd go serious on him.

She did tank his punch, but her stamina plays a role too. I'd say 1.25x is the bare minimum. But 1.3x seems appropriate, no?

The 18/17 gap doesn't seem to have much point to it either, unless you're taking every bit of hyperbole spoken by 17 completely literally.

It is uncontradicted, and it makes his power line up perfectly with Kamiccolo's, who should be 2x Piccolo, who should be > Yardrat Goku.

Never thought I'd say this, but Imperfect Cell seems a bit lower relative to 17/Piccolo actually.

I'm just using "loss of yuki/shoki" or whatever nonsense. The point of this list was to use bare minimum gaps. {guess I forgot that with 18/Vegeta lulz)

Anyway, there's another drastically overkill gap in the jump from Imperfect to Semi-Cell. First of all, why assume that initial Cell is the one that wrecked 16, and not full power Cell?

He's shown powering up against Vegeta later.

Holy hell SSG3 is a big jump .

SSJ Gr 2 Trunks =< SSJ Gr 2 Vegeta << warm-up Cell << SSJ Gr 3 Trunks is a biig jump. 2x at least. Besides having big SSJ boosts doesn't effect base powers

Again, any particular reason that initial Cell has to be over twice as strong as Vegeta? For one, it should be noted that Vegeta was fighting in a stamina-draining form for a while by that point, and likely wasn't at full capacity. More importantly... all Cell did was tank one physical blow from a somewhat worn out Vegeta and then three-shot him. You don't think that's something someone could do at a x1.5 or so advantage?

Ok, I'll change that

The gigantic SS2 multiplier also seems bloated, but that's neither here nor there considering the base saiyan vs Freeza discussion at hand. Back to that: as noted, the gap between SSG2 Vegeta and Goku doesn't need to be that large. He just said that Goku was stronger... and Goku could have been at 55% or something considering his exact wording.

If I put him that much lower I'd get Gr 3 Trunks > 100% MSSJ Goku which is silly

I feel like Vegeta should be closer to Gohan than Goku in the Buu arc before the Majin power-up, as the gap between him and Goku then was supposed to be similar to the gap they had at the Cell Games, but again that's neither here nor there.

I have him at 75% of Goku at the CG and 80% of Goku in the Boo arc

Let's pretend for a second that Freeza is 120 on this list. That puts him at 70% of Namek Goku

That'd put him at 80% actually...

I IS SMART

All this aside, nothing else on the Boo arc ?

[Skar]

tried a base saiyan < Freeza list, and ultimately failed... pick this apart for me and tell me what to change

I would say first mistake was trying to make sense of power levels . I joke. My first question is do you believe Cell was a solar system buster? If you were using a linear scale then there's no way Cell could be a solar system buster at only 35 billion. I'm not sure how much energy is required to destroy the solar system because I've seen different estimates on different sites but most were several trillions times the energy needed to destroy the Earth. So if Vegeta was a planet buster at 18,000 then using a linear scale Super Perfect Cell would have to be at least 18,000 trillion or 18 quadrillion. Obviously that would conflict with SSJ being 50x base. Base Gohan would have to be several billion so that when you multiply it by 50 he could be over a few trillion and be close Perfect Cell.

It depends which scale you're using since there were MANY of them in the manga. I believe this is a legitimate question since numbers are kinda meaningless without a scale. If you were using some exponential scale like early Dragonball then Cell could possibly be a solar system buster at 35 billion. In a crazy exponential scale a tiny percentage difference could translate to that character being many times stronger. I don't know how to do the math but it could be something like 5-10% higher power level could mean that character is actually 2x or 10x stronger. The problem with this scale is that it would also conflict with SSJ. SSJ is 50x base so we assume that means 50x the power. In an exponential scale I think 50x the power level would be like several hundred or thousand times the power. That doesn't sound right.

To summarize:
1. If you're using a linear scale and believe Cell was a solar system buster then your numbers might be too low.
2. If you're using an exponential scale and believe Cell was a solar system buster then some of your numbers might have too much of a gap between them.
3. If you're using a linear scale and ignoring Cell's statement then I guess your power levels could work. I think some of the gaps could be reduced and don't need to be that wide.

[xmysticgohanx]

Cell isn't a ss buster in the Manga because Beerus being a ss buster is supposed to be a big deal and kid Buu's Vanishing Ball is a lot of magnitudes below ss busting.

Why does SSJ4 Goku need a big boost when Super Baby 1 > SSJ Vegetto and SSJ4 Goku is way above Baby. SSJ3 Goku didn't hurt Super Baby 2. Powerscaling 2 different universes doesn't work anyway. We need feats.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Cell said he would destroy the solar system and it was never contradicted. How AT came to that conclusion, I'm not sure. But I know scientific stuff like that is scaled nowhere close to linearly.

I think Beerus being a galaxy buster was a big deal.

[Lord Beerus]

Cell said he would destroy the solar system and it was never contradicted. How AT came to that conclusion, I'm not sure. But I know scientific stuff like that is scaled nowhere close to linearly.

I think Beerus being a galaxy buster was a big deal.

I think it's a big deal mainly because he can pull off such a feat if just too angry. If Beerus really put his all into it, with intent of creating as much destruction as possible, I'd imagine he would be a Solar System buster and beyond.

[Skar]

Cell isn't a ss buster in the Manga because Beerus being a ss buster is supposed to be a big deal and kid Buu's Vanishing Ball is a lot of magnitudes below ss busting.

I'm pretty sure Kid Buu's vanishing ball did the same damage in both the manga and anime so that would mean Cell wasn't a solar system buster in the anime either. I found this clip of Omega Shenron that states his negative energy was going to erode the Earth and then move on to other planets not that he was going to destroy the universe in one blast. Were you referring to this scene or something else when you said he was a universe buster?

Why does SSJ4 Goku need a big boost when Super Baby 1 > SSJ Vegetto and SSJ4 Goku is way above Baby. SSJ3 Goku didn't hurt Super Baby 2. Powerscaling 2 different universes doesn't work anyway. We need feats.

I'm not sure what that has to do with what I've been saying since we know SSJ God Goku is also > Vegetto. Basic math should be the same across all fictional universes unless stated otherwise. We both agree that:
SSJ God Goku > SSJ4 Goku
Whis = ~3x SSJ God Goku
SSJ4 Goku + other Saiyan energy > Syn > SSJ4 Goku
So put these together it should be Whis > SSJ4 Goku + other Saiyan energy > Syn > SSJ4 Goku unless SSJ4 Goku was over 3x stronger than before from absorbing the energy of Gohan, Trunks, and Goten. This doesn't require any complicated powerscaling only basic math.

I think Beerus being a galaxy buster was a big deal.

Herms pointed out here that it was actually a translation error and Whis was only saying Beerus could destroy the solar system not galaxy.

[xmysticgohanx]

Yeah but the anime has a guidebook plus kid Buu's large star feat (that's a low end too) to back it up. Your argument rests on your belief that Saiyans giving energy is a linear boost when there's no reason to assume that especially when in m8 it wasn't (m1 and m5 are confirmed anime canon and I recall someone proved the movies are connected with each other) I didn't call Omega a universe buster, I was talking about the GT Perfect Files statement that iirc isn't contradicted by GT. Galaxy busting > solar system busting. That's proof enough Goku got over a 3x boost.

[Hugo Boss]

From what I can remember, the Evil Dragon's power ball was meant to destroy the Earth and it failed to reach the planet's core. Instead, it nearly killed Goku.

[Skar]

Yeah but the anime has a guidebook plus kid Buu's large star feat (that's a low end too) to back it up. Your argument rests on your belief that Saiyans giving energy is a linear boost when there's no reason to assume that especially when in m8 it wasn't

I have a good reason to assume that because you haven't really given me any evidence that it isn't. In the first Broly movie FPSSJ Goku absorbed energy from three Saiyans who were more than half his power each while in GT SSJ4 Goku absorbed energy from three Saiyans weaker than his SSJ1 at the time. If you recall Hatchiyack was said to be stronger than LSSJ Broly and he was defeated by a combined blast from Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Gohan so if he was less than 4x stronger than Goku then so was Broly.

(m1 and m5 are confirmed anime canon and I recall someone proved the movies are connected with each other) I didn't call Omega a universe buster, I was talking about the GT Perfect Files statement that iirc isn't contradicted by GT. Galaxy busting > solar system busting. That's proof enough Goku got over a 3x boost.

All I found in GT was that they said his negative energy would eventually spread and destroy the universe. They never implied he could destroy the universe in one blast. Destroying a galaxy would require trillions of times the energy needed to destroy a solar system. You're saying SSJ4 Goku was weaker than Beerus who could destroy a solar system and then by absorbing the energy of Gohan, Trunks, and Goten became stronger than Syn Shenron who you're claiming is a galaxy buster. That would require SSJ4 Goku to get trillions of times stronger from the energy he absorbed. I have trouble believing he become three times stronger let alone several trillion times.

[xmysticgohanx]

It was talking about Syn Shenron not Omega. And that's what the guidebook says which is more canon than your logic. Power levels are exponential anyway; besides kaioken speed

[Skar]

It was talking about Syn Shenron not Omega. And that's what the guidebook says which is more canon than your logic. Power levels are exponential anyway; besides kaioken speed

Yeah exponential...besides Kaioken, Oozaru, SSJ forms, and Frieza's percentages. That still wouldn't make any sense and contradict everything else in Dragonball and that guidebook. If the anime only said Omega's negative energy would spread across the universe then that could've been what the guidebook was referring to for Syn. I found out in the GT Perfect Files that SSJ4 Gogeta was"several dozen times stronger than a SSJ4." Am I supposed to believe that SSJ4 Goku absorbing the energy of three Saiyans weaker than his SSJ1 made him several trillion times stronger while fusing with another SSJ4 only made him several dozen times stronger?