The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[rereboy]

SSJ Gotenks being anywhere comparable to SSJ3 Goku means that he is most likely stronger than Majin Vegeta.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Whether Goku is trying or not doesn't change anything, he's still exerting his full power

Holding back =/= suppressing ki

Based on the fight with Boo and Goku, I wouldn't say there's a big enough gap for Gotenks to be comfortably ahead of Fat Boo and still be well below Goku.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Nothing needs to be suppressed. When Vegeta was fighting #18, he certainly wasn't suppressed. However, when he attacked #18 seriously after she called him weak, Trunks says he was surprised at how powerful Vegeta was. So whatever he was sensing before clearly wasn't as impressive. The assessment was only made once he started fighting all-out. That's just one example, but being powered-up doesn't mean the full-extent of their power will be sensed; especially if one isn't even trying.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Very well, I concede

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

To be fair, I think Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Super Saiyan Gotenks are in the same league, which is superior to Fat Boo. I doubt Goku is way stronger than Gotenks. I just felt like debating a little I only have Goku at full-power a little stronger than pre-rosat Super Saiyan Gotenks, and have post-rosat Super Saiyan Gotenks well above Goku's full-power.

If I had to compare them, it'd look something like this: Super Saiyan Gotenks>Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Against Fat Boo)>Fat Boo

With that, Goku would technically be correct about fusion being stronger. So I pretty much agree with you, but I just wanted to throw another viewpoint in.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

To be fair, I think Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Super Saiyan Gotenks are in the same league, which is superior to Fat Boo. I doubt Goku is way stronger than Gotenks. I just felt like debating a little I only have Goku at full-power a little stronger than pre-rosat Super Saiyan Gotenks, and have post-rosat Super Saiyan Gotenks well above Goku's full-power.

If I had to compare them, it'd look something like this: Super Saiyan Gotenks>Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Against Fat Boo)>Fat Boo

With that, Goku would technically be correct about fusion being stronger. So I pretty much agree with you, but I just wanted to throw another viewpoint in.

I have it like this:

SSJ 3 Goku - 600

Fat Boo - 500

SSJ Gotenks - 680
~post rosat - 800

[Angelus]

For everyone else who are wondering what the most recent versus set is:

GT SSJ Trunks (Shadow Dragon Saga) VS Movie 8 LSSJ Broly
[Will his Toei hax be enough to overcome his childhood movie bully?]

Cell Games Tien + Krillin Potara Fusion VS Manga Semi-Perfect Cell
[No Kienzan/Tribeam]

Bujin and Transformed Kogu VS ASSJ Vegeta and Future Trunks (Post-1st day ROSAT)

23rd WMAT Tien and Yamcha Fusion Dance VS Nappa (no armor)
[No tribeam. No fusion time limit]

Bio-Broly VS End of Z Piccolo (no weighted clothing on)
[No usage of water]

Android 14 VS Kibito
[No magic materialization]

former versus:

Spoiler:

Androids Saga Base Gohan VS Cell Games Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu
[No Kienzan/Tribeam]

100% Final Form Frieza VS Androids Saga Piccolo with no weighted clothing (Pre-ROSAT/Pre-Kami fusion)

Kamiccolo + Kamiccolo Potara Fusion VS Full Power SSJ3 Goku (Otherworld body)

King Piccolo VS Tarble (armored but with no scouter)
[No tail grabbing/cutting]

Zangya VS Cell Games Piccolo
[No wires/threads magic]

[Hugo Boss]

At Budokai's ring...

Bio-Broly VS End of Z Piccolo (no weighted clothing on)

I think (M8) Piccolo can be a match for (M11) Broly. But to defeat him it would require Piccolo to use water and I don't know how Piccolo would figure it out. Further versions of Piccolo would not be fair.

King Piccolo VS Tarble (armored but with no scouter)[No tail grabbing/cutting]

I have Tarble at 10,000. If Piccolo somehow manage to find his weakness I think Piccolo has a chance. Without it, Tarble wins by accident. I don't think he needs armor and with my conditions an armor wouldn't be allowed.

[goku the krump dancer]

Doesn't change the fact that he said Goku never tried, so he would have no idea of how strong he really was. At best he'd be compared to a not trying Goku, but we know everything fusion related is compared to Majin Boo.

Piccolo doesn't need to say the fusion is weaker than he expected if it was already much stronger (Isn't that the point?) than Boo to begin with. That wouldn't even make sense. Context. When Base Gotenks forms, Piccolo says he's powerful, but not enough to defeat Majin Boo. Super Saiyan Gotenks appears, Piccolo acknowledges his power, which is most likely greater than Boo's. Simple.

He also says that he's still perhaps not strong enough to take on Boo but before Piccolo could finish what he was going to say a now Super Saiyan Gotenks flys off arrogantly (AGAIN) to face Boo but not before circling the planet a dozen times.

If there was any hope that pre training SS Gotenks could beat Boo I don't think Piccolo would've tried to chase him down as frantically as he did.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Nothing ever states Gotenks was weaker than Fat Boo. Piccolo never questions Gotenks power, only his speed.

Goku states multiple times that Gotenks will be stronger than Fat Boo,

It's never contradicted, he doesn't need to prove himself since it's never established that he was weaker than Fat Boo

[Kamiccolo9]

Nothing ever states Gotenks was weaker than Fat Boo. Piccolo never questions Gotenks power, only his speed.

Goku states multiple times that Gotenks will be stronger than Fat Boo,

It's never contradicted, he doesn't need to prove himself since it's never established that he was weaker than Fat Boo

The burden of proof is always on the person trying to prove the positive in a situation. That's how it works. If you claim that Gotenks is stronger, then it's up to you to prove so, not for the other person to prove that he isn't.

And yes, that actually is a rule. It is a logical fallacy to require someone to prove a negative.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Doesn't change the fact that he said Goku never tried, so he would have no idea of how strong he really was. At best he'd be compared to a not trying Goku, but we know everything fusion related is compared to Majin Boo.

Piccolo doesn't need to say the fusion is weaker than he expected if it was already much stronger (Isn't that the point?) than Boo to begin with. That wouldn't even make sense. Context. When Base Gotenks forms, Piccolo says he's powerful, but not enough to defeat Majin Boo. Super Saiyan Gotenks appears, Piccolo acknowledges his power, which is most likely greater than Boo's. Simple.

He also says that he's still perhaps not strong enough to take on Boo but before Piccolo could finish what he was going to say a now Super Saiyan Gotenks flys off arrogantly (AGAIN) to face Boo but not before circling the planet a dozen times.

If there was any hope that pre training SS Gotenks could beat Boo I don't think Piccolo would've tried to chase him down as frantically as he did.

I think Piccolo just didn't want the kids to be irrational in their approach to the battle.

The way I look at it: Piccolo was fine with Super Saiyan Gotenks fighting Fat Boo. He knows they don't have all the time in the world, so Gotenks was going to have to fight Boo eventually. When Boo changes into Super Boo, Piccolo immediately tells the kids to get their asses into the rosat to train or they're finished. Since Super Boo is much stronger than Fat Boo, it makes sense as for why Piccolo deemed it necessary for them to increase their power in the rosat. I don't think Fat Boo was much of an issue for Super Saiyan Gotenks, which is likely why Piccolo never suggested the kids would need to use the rosat before fighting him.

[goku the krump dancer]

I think Piccolo just didn't want the kids to be irrational in their approach to the battle.

See this I agree with but for a different reason.

It could go either way but the fact that Piccolo had any doubt at all means he wasn't %100 confident in Gotenks' ability. Even if Gotenks just managed to be dead even with Fat Boo as a Super Saiyan pre training, I think Piccolo felt that more can be done even if it's just a little bit to make the kids stronger to pull off a more solid victory. Better to be safe then sorry ya know. He probably was going to mention the RoSat anyway but we'll never know since he couldn't finish what he was saying. I think Piccolo thought they had another day or two to 1. Rest and 2.Practice (in the RoSat) before the kids were to challenge Boo but then Fat Boo turned into Super and learned to sense Ki thus rushing the whole plan.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That's certainly possible. Piccolo was aware that Mr. Satan had befriended Boo, so it's possible that he thought this would give them more time. One of the things the Boo saga shows us is that nothing is certain. Gotenks might have the power to defeat Boo, but when you see how unpredictable both Gotenks and Boo can be, there's a reason for Piccolo to not be fully confident. When Gohan is arriving, Piccolo notes his incredible power and actually thinks he might be a new enemy. However, despite Gohan's new power-up, Piccolo thinks Gohan has no chance if he fights Boo alone.

Now the battle shows that Gohan was able to pummel Boo without much effort, while Super Saiyan Gotenks never fought Fat Boo. I just wanted to show an example of Piccolo being cautious about fighting Majin Boo even though (at least in the Gohan scenario) he didn't need to be.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

The burden of proof is always on the person trying to prove the positive in a situation. That's how it works. If you claim that Gotenks is stronger, then it's up to you to prove so, not for the other person to prove that he isn't.

And yes, that actually is a rule. It is a logical fallacy to require someone to prove a negative.

It doesn't work when there's evidence in the manga. If it was simply "there's no evidence against my position that I, myself, haven't provided anything to back up," then it would qualify.

Ignorance fallacy says "It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa)". You are asserting a proposition is true based on given evidence, and arguing the evidence against your evidence is little to none. This is a valid argument. If you were saying simply "the evidence against mine is little to none" without first asserting the first part of having evidence, then it'd fall under ignorance fallacy.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AbsenceOfEvidenc ... eOfAbsence

[Hugo Boss]

Look, you say that SS Gotenks is stronger than Fat Boo when you lack clear evidence to back that claim up, see?

You brought about 3 situations which you claim are clear evidence and you are practically asking others to prove they aren't clear evidence based on a suposedly rule that every uncontradicted sentence in fiction is a fact. How that rule was presented to you?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Read the above post bro

Ignorance fallacy says "It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa)". You are asserting a proposition is true based on given evidence, and arguing the evidence against your evidence is little to none. This is a valid argument. If you were saying simply "the evidence against mine is little to none" without first asserting the first part of having evidence, then it'd fall under ignorance fallacy.

I'm asserting that SSJ Gotenks pre is stronger than Fat Boo with given evidence, and arguing there's no evidence against me. That's a valid argument.

If someone said something like "Gotenks was actually weaker than Fat Boo" without asserting any evidence, then it falls under ignorance fallacy.

The fact that it was never established Gotenks was weaker than expected, but in fact the opposite is implied, gives you one less leg to stand on

[Hugo Boss]

Ok, I'm not trying to lecture you or something like that. But for the sake of logic, can't you see ignorance fallacy in claiming "SS Gotenks is stronger than Fat Boo, prove that I'm wrong with another evidence"?

The center of the argument is about you also making another claim about a rule that is applied to every fiction. Can you provide clear evidence about that rule? How did you get that rule? Your point depends on you proving that rule and If you succeed you will actually have evidence. Then, the burden of proof would be mine to counter your evidence.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I'm not talking all literature, I'm talking Dragon Ball. That's how its always worked in DB, there's no secret meaning behind all of those quotes, what's said is said for a reason.

I'm not calling it a legitimate rule, it's just a simple concept that when there's multiple statements/implications going in Gotenks' favor and absolutely no statements going against Goku's estimate/Gotenks' power, then it seems clear how strong Gotenks really is.

An ignorance fallacy is appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance stands for "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or true.

If I had no evidence my argument would fall under ignorance fallacy, but I do have evidence, with no evidence countering mine.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm not talking all literature, I'm talking Dragon Ball. That's how its always worked in DB, there's no secret meaning behind all of those quotes, what's said is said for a reason.

I'm not calling it a legitimate rule, it's just a simple concept that when there's multiple statements/implications going in Gotenks' favor and absolutely no statements going against Goku's estimate/Gotenks' power, then it seems clear how strong Gotenks really is.

An ignorance fallacy is appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance stands for "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or true.

If I had no evidence my argument would fall under ignorance fallacy, but I do have evidence, with no evidence countering mine.

So, no evidence then? Only a subjective rule that you apply to yourself.