Were the DBZ dubs "overscored"?

[Regarder]

This isn't about the quality of the music itself (God knows there are already too many debates about that), but about the music editing. It seems to me that there was a distinct lack of silent moments in the dubbed anime (especially Funi) that gave contrast to a piece of music.
The original would often have long moments like this before using themes for characters doing actual significant things. A really extreme example of this is during the SS2 Gohan transformation, where the original uses silence effectively, but the dub just has music all the way through.

I think generally, there's a lack of moments like that in dubbed material, and the Bruce Falconer stuff (even though it's good imo) sounds like it's just playing constantly going through various tracks. I'm sure I'm exaggerating (it's not as ridiculous as in the Transformers G1 cartoon), but I can't think of a single moment of clever music editing or use of sustained silence in the Ocean or Funi dubs, and there was a lot of weird bloopy music that had nothing to do with thematics (which Falconer is good at), and just filled up casual talking scenes.

Am I wrong? (I haven't seen the Kai dub btw) Arguably, on another note, the original Japanese version was underscored in that they reused music too much.

[Puto]

SS2 Gohan isn't silent, it has a vocal song even.

[Careless Saiyajin]

You might be right in some way or another however I know a lot of us have a certain feeling of nostalgia towards the old tracks. Personally now I rather just watch Kai. Speaking of which I already forgot how they handle bgm and sounds.

[fadeddreams5]

I agree. Actually, that's the biggest complaint I always hear about Faulconer's music: the unsustained silence. If the BGM in the Funimation dub knew when to STFU, the haters would appreciate it much more.

[Regarder]

SS2 Gohan isn't silent, it has a vocal song even.

I said it uses silence effectively. There's no music until there needs to be, and THEN there's a vocal song. In the dub (or at least the one I remember) they score the scene leading up to 16's death with some bloopy antithematic techno, and then while Gohan is snapping he actually commentates on the fact that he's snapping.

[Valerius Dover]

As a gamer, the lack of silence doesn't bug me, but I can see why others wouldn't like it. The strange thing is not the fact that it has more music than the average Japanese anime, but the fact that it has more music than in the majority of Western Animation. Mark Menza even notes in his interview that 15 out of 20 minutes would be a heavily scored show, while GT and also Z's mandate of constant music made it so that it matched the run time of 20 minutes, reaching a whole new level.

There are a few examples of silence even in the Faulconer score, though.

-Captain Ginyu telling Jeice to be quiet so he can ascertain Goku's whereabouts. The music is kind enough to shut up, too.
-Cell's attack on the airport. The beginning of the episode is silent up until you see Cell.
-The scene where Goku is about to leave Kame House (first scene in an episode) is silent for roughly the first half.
-Most of the scenes involving the radio or TV before and during the Cell Games.

These moments are well done, but end up being jarring in a series otherwise filled with music. Plus, the fact that I can count the silent moments should speak for itself. This wasn't the fault of any of the composers, as many know. Funimation wanted constant sound, and they delivered.

[Regarder]

This wasn't the fault of any of the composers, as many know. Funimation wanted constant sound, and they delivered.

I can only think of Transformers, but I wonder if this isn't just an American animation thing, which is weird in of itself, because American movies don't really do this.

[voltlunok]

There are some points I can agree to this. But at other points I do distinctly remember the Japanese track where they swung to the other extreme, where it was quiet for too long. I remember watching the first Broly movie with the Japanese score and his rampage scene after transforming was just...musicless. There was nothing but the sounds of him smashing stuff and it went on for way too long. (The music only cutting in when goku gets the energy to beat him.) I think the Faulconer score had problems putting too much music in and not having dramatic tension build but I also think the Japanese versions were guilty of not having enough music in there for some parts. Quiet tension is good but dragging it out can make it boring.

[Valerius Dover]

Well, what I was saying was that even Western Animation, while more heavily scored than movies and Japanese anime, allow for silence during talking scenes. Any series in the DCAU would be a prime example.

^As for the opposite, I got that impression from The Path to Power in particular. The other movies and the series were fine, but the one Tokunaga did had too much silence and when a track did come up, it would usually only be about 30 seconds long. That wasn't helped by the music being a bit too quiet compared to the sound effects and voices (especially noticeable with Commander Red's death scene, that gunshot is ear piercing compared to everything else). However, it's possible that problem only existed in the dub, though I can't be too sure, not having seen the original.

[ABED]

I agree. Actually, that's the biggest complaint I always hear about Faulconer's music: the unsustained silence. If the BGM in the Funimation dub knew when to STFU, the haters would appreciate it much more.

I don't think that's the biggest complaint. It's certainly up there, but even if there was more silence, I don't think the haters would hate it that much less. I didn't honestly notice it until someone pointed it out, I just didn't care for the music.

I can only think of Transformers, but I wonder if this isn't just an American animation thing, which is weird in of itself, because American movies don't really do this.

True, not just movies, TV. One of the reasons Breaking Bad was so good was because they knew when to score something and when to hold back. MMPR (Levi scored) was awful with how it just didn't stop. Every little movement was scored, even a head turn was often indicated with music. I wonder how much of the PTB's fear of lack of music is warranted.

[Lord Beerus]

Honestly, one of the main issues I had with Funimation's dub of Dragon Ball Z was that the soundtrack never knew when to shut the hell up. Even during moments when silence would have incredibly been effective for the scene itself. The Cell arc was hands down the worst offender of this. I can't remember one scene where I didn't go less than a minute without hearing Faulconers autotuned rock score blaring in the background. But in all fairness, most of the time the characters would stand around and do or say nothing. So I guess Funimation thought the best way to cover this up was to provide a Transformers-like soundtrack in the background to distract you long enough so that you wouldn't realise that the characters were just killing time by doing nothing.

[ABED]

Their approach to dialog was also similar. Even when there's silence, there's talking in the dub, especially when you shots are from behind characters. The opening narration is wall to wall talking. I don't mind it as much when Brice Armstrong is the narrator, but it's still no picnic.

[TheBlackPaladin]

It was indeed overscored, and it was a deliberate move on FUNimation's part. Well, not "deliberate" per say (they didn't think of it as overscoring), but they were conscious of the fact that their score was on all the time. Besides using the new score as a source of revenue (more on that in other threads) that was an effort to "Americanize" the show, because most American TV cartoons have a score on in the background all the time as well.

The theory behind a constant score was that "kids have short attention spans, so if we aren't constantly giving their visual and audio senses something to feast on, they'll change the channel." While I will agree that kids can have short attention spans and be quick to judge, I don't believe that a constant score somehow makes them less likely to change the channel. Let's not forget that when Kai was on the CW, it was the highest-rated anime show...and it kept the original score, silences and all.

[ABED]

The theory behind a constant score was that "kids have short attention spans, so if we aren't constantly giving their visual and audio senses something to feast on, they'll change the channel." While I will agree that kids can have short attention spans and be quick to judge, I don't believe that a constant score somehow makes them less likely to change the channel. Let's not forget that when Kai was on the CW, it was the highest-rated anime show...and it kept the original score, silences and all.

I wonder if things like that caused kids' attention spans to decrease. It seems like a vicious cycle.

[TheBlackPaladin]

The theory behind a constant score was that "kids have short attention spans, so if we aren't constantly giving their visual and audio senses something to feast on, they'll change the channel." While I will agree that kids can have short attention spans and be quick to judge, I don't believe that a constant score somehow makes them less likely to change the channel. Let's not forget that when Kai was on the CW, it was the highest-rated anime show...and it kept the original score, silences and all.

I wonder if things like that caused kids' attention spans to decrease. It seems like a vicious cycle.

I wouldn't be surprised. I first heard the Japanese score when I bought my first "Season Set," and watched it with the 5.1 "English Dub With Original Music" audio track, and--besides instantly loving the music more than the dub score--I found that I was much more engaged in the scenes where there was silence. Without music, a lot of scenes had this "Mexican Standoff" feel to it that wasn't there with the dub score. Like I was leaning closer to the TV, watching the characters more intently, all the while wondering, "What's he going to do/say?"

[LordCrumb]

I often wonder if Funimation had the original score to begin with? Maybe they were given a track that only had the sound effects?

[Straw]

I often wonder if Funimation had the original score to begin with? Maybe they were given a track that only had the sound effects?

No, they always had it from the get go, they just chose not to use it. They could make more money using their own score (royalties being charged every time it's shown on TV), and they felt the silence would make kids get impatient and change the channel. There's been multiple interviews over the years (mostly from Barry Watson and Gen Fukanaga) where they explicitly said that was the reason they didn't use the original score.

[LordCrumb]

I often wonder if Funimation had the original score to begin with? Maybe they were given a track that only had the sound effects?

No, they always had it from the get go, they just chose not to use it. They could make more money using their own score (royalties being charged every time it's shown on TV), and they felt the silence would make kids get impatient and change the channel. There's been multiple interviews over the years (mostly from Barry Watson and Gen Fukanaga) where they explicitly said that was the reason they didn't use the original score.

Well that's kind of a correct assumption I think.. based on the age group they were aiming for, and the years it was being aired. American animation is so much different than Anime, so they were probably thinking with the right intentions. It's only in hindsight that we can say "they should have / could have".

[UltimateHammerBro]

I often wonder if Funimation had the original score to begin with? Maybe they were given a track that only had the sound effects?

I don't think that such a track is provided by Toei unless they specifically ask for it (as I suppose they ended up doing).
After all, many other dubs of the series which were made both before and after the English dub use a perfect 'music and effects' track (save for a really curious case I'll talk about when I have the time).

[swimtrunks]

You aren't wrong. The DBZ dubs were way over-scored. That's why I prefer to watch the original Japanese version sometimes. Specifically Gohan vs Bojack.