Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:So, no evidence then? Only a subjective rule that you apply to yourself.
Spoiler:
3. Goku introduces Fusion and states twice that if the boys perfect it, they'll definitely be able to beat Boo. The boys could only go SSjin, and Goku measured their full power for a reason, so that's what Goku assumed they'd beat Boo with, otherwise he would have stated they could beat him even without the use of the form, as Trunks later specifies beating Evil Boo in their regular state and not a transformed state. Also, Goku tells Piccolo that he told Boo a stronger fighter than him would come in 2 days; he never actually told this to Boo, but Piccolo doesn't know that. Now we have:
Supporting Quotes
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two, if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat him within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”
4. Goku leaves and the boys finally get Fusion right. Gotenks forms in Base first, and right away Piccolo tells him he's not strong enough to even think about beating Boo. Gotenks cockily disobeys Piccolo and leaves to fight Boo, but returns after a prompt butt-kicking, cementing Piccolo's statement. Although he gets his butt kicked, he was confident in fighting Boo, and Krillin and Yamcha also seemed to think he stood a chance. In order for Gotenks to feel confident, he would have to be comfortably ahead of SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta and Goku at the very least. We have:
SSjin Gotenks (predicted) > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku
Supporting Quotes
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5
Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans
Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.”
Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P12.5
Context: After Gotenks takes off, saying he'll beat Boo
Kuririn: “He-he’s pretty haughty, but just maybe he re-really will be able to take care of [Boo]…”
Yamcha: “Ye-yeah…He sure seemed pretty confident…”
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”
5. The boys then fuse as Super Saiyans, and Piccolo immediately comments on SSjin Gotenks's power in a positive way, but questions if his speed is up to par; notice he doesn't question Gotenks's power, and he merely asked for a "little" demonstration of his movement. When Gotenks flies off and Piccolo finally catches up to him, Gotenks flaunts his speed and flies off again, but Piccolo shows no contempt except that Gotenks only has 1 minute left to fight Boo. Since nothing thus far contradicts it, we have:
SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku
Supporting Quotes
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5
Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans
Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.”
Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”
Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”
Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P9.3-8
Context: Piccolo finally catches up to Gotenks
Gotenks: “You’re slow. So you finally got here? Besides circling around the Earth several times, I even took a little afternoon nap. [ ] Fuffuffuh…So you can’t tell just from my speed just now? My super-duper incredible power…! …Which is to say that the test is over, and I’m going to go take care of that annoying Majin Boo right away…”
*Gotenks takes off*
Piccolo: “H-hey, you idiot! Kuh…! Wh-what a *****head…H-he already has only 1 minute left that he can stay merged. That dimwhit…!”
Goku said multiple times Gotenks would defeat Boo and wouldn't need a RoSaT trip, without even knowing Gotenks in person until seeing him from the crystal ball. I fail to see the clear evidence here.
Piccolo said Gotenks' power really was incredible and, because he only commented on the time problem, you assumed such claims are evidence that what Goku told Boo was true. I also fail to see the clear evidence here.
I have no problem about thinking SS Gotenks was already stronger than SS3 Goku (or didn't surpass Majin Vegeta) before the RoSaT's trip, but claiming each of these are evidence... I'm not sure.
The snarky attitudes about who's more or less opinionated or educated about logic end right now.
The bit in Daizenshuu #7 about how Gotenks "leveled up" to the point that "his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others" in the Room of Spirit and Time, combined with the suspicious lack of any kind of confirmation about his standing to Majin Boo before it (in a story arc that's otherwise chock full of straightforward "A > B" statements), is reason enough for one to believe that SS Gotenks wasn't quite up to the task yet.
But if one instead believes that taking Goku's prediction at face value is enough to assume he WAS strong enough, then that's okay too. You're free to believe either way.
Goku measured Goten and Trunks' full power, he's seen fusion in the after life before and even sensed the ki increase, he's a reliable ki sensor.
He was able to tell SSJ 2 Gohan would be enough to beat Cell without even seeing a SSJ 2 before, so why would he be wrong about Gotenks when he's sensed fusion and Goten and Trunks' full power?
@Kaboom
It could've meant Base Gotenks post > Majin Vegeta for all we know, but that's personal interpretation, so I won't argue on that.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:So, no evidence then? Only a subjective rule that you apply to yourself.
Spoiler:
3. Goku introduces Fusion and states twice that if the boys perfect it, they'll definitely be able to beat Boo. The boys could only go SSjin, and Goku measured their full power for a reason, so that's what Goku assumed they'd beat Boo with, otherwise he would have stated they could beat him even without the use of the form, as Trunks later specifies beating Evil Boo in their regular state and not a transformed state. Also, Goku tells Piccolo that he told Boo a stronger fighter than him would come in 2 days; he never actually told this to Boo, but Piccolo doesn't know that. Now we have:
Supporting Quotes
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two, if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat him within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”
4. Goku leaves and the boys finally get Fusion right. Gotenks forms in Base first, and right away Piccolo tells him he's not strong enough to even think about beating Boo. Gotenks cockily disobeys Piccolo and leaves to fight Boo, but returns after a prompt butt-kicking, cementing Piccolo's statement. Although he gets his butt kicked, he was confident in fighting Boo, and Krillin and Yamcha also seemed to think he stood a chance. In order for Gotenks to feel confident, he would have to be comfortably ahead of SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta and Goku at the very least. We have:
SSjin Gotenks (predicted) > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku
Supporting Quotes
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5
Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans
Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.”
Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P12.5
Context: After Gotenks takes off, saying he'll beat Boo
Kuririn: “He-he’s pretty haughty, but just maybe he re-really will be able to take care of [Boo]…”
Yamcha: “Ye-yeah…He sure seemed pretty confident…”
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”
5. The boys then fuse as Super Saiyans, and Piccolo immediately comments on SSjin Gotenks's power in a positive way, but questions if his speed is up to par; notice he doesn't question Gotenks's power, and he merely asked for a "little" demonstration of his movement. When Gotenks flies off and Piccolo finally catches up to him, Gotenks flaunts his speed and flies off again, but Piccolo shows no contempt except that Gotenks only has 1 minute left to fight Boo. Since nothing thus far contradicts it, we have:
SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku
Supporting Quotes
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5
Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans
Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.”
Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”
Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”
Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P9.3-8
Context: Piccolo finally catches up to Gotenks
Gotenks: “You’re slow. So you finally got here? Besides circling around the Earth several times, I even took a little afternoon nap. [ ] Fuffuffuh…So you can’t tell just from my speed just now? My super-duper incredible power…! …Which is to say that the test is over, and I’m going to go take care of that annoying Majin Boo right away…”
*Gotenks takes off*
Piccolo: “H-hey, you idiot! Kuh…! Wh-what a *****head…H-he already has only 1 minute left that he can stay merged. That dimwhit…!”
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Goku measured Goten and Trunks' full power, he's seen fusion in the after life before and even sensed the ki increase, he's a reliable ki sensor.
He was able to tell SSJ 2 Gohan would be enough to beat Cell without even seeing a SSJ 2 before, so why would he be wrong about Gotenks when he's sensed fusion and Goten and Trunks' full power?
I can't say Goku was wrong in either way, I'm wondering about the lack of confirmation in Gotenks' situation.
When Gohan fought Cell he defeated Cell, but it wasn't just a matter of power. Cell was tenacious enough to almost win the battle. Imagine if Gohan didn't have Goku's and Vegeta's assistment.
I can also imagining Vegeta being tenacious enough to defeat Gotenks, it's up to one's belief.
About Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others, was there an image shown of Gotenks in that Daizenshuu bio?
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Cool. So I'll just go with Base Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others, then. Thanks.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
As Kaboom said, none of that is definitive, unless taken in a very specific way, that is by no means necessary.
I mentioned this before but I'll say it again: yes, there's no definite proof that SSJ Gotenks (before Rosat) is stronger than Majin Vegeta. However, there are plenty of quotes and actions indicating and implying in the manga that he is stronger than Majin Vegeta, while there's basically no quotes and actions indicating and implying otherwise in the manga. The best one can argue is that there's no definite proof and that's basically it. The bulk of what is the manga seems to tend heavily to implying that he is stronger than Majin Vegeta.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
As Kaboom said, none of that is definitive, unless taken in a very specific way, that is by no means necessary.
I mentioned this before but I'll say it again: yes, there's no definite proof that SSJ Gotenks (before Rosat) is stronger than Majin Vegeta. However, there are plenty of quotes and actions indicating and implying in the manga that he is stronger than Majin Vegeta, while there's basically no quotes and actions indicating and implying otherwise in the manga. The best one can argue is that there's no definite proof and that's basically it. The bulk of what is the manga seems to tend heavily to implying that he is stronger than Majin Vegeta.
It just depends upon how much value you place in implications.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
It just depends upon how much value you place in implications.
To me, when the opposite interpretation has nothing backing it up, its easy to adhere to the implications that actually are there.
But, of course, since there's no definite proof, one can always adhere to the opposing interpretation even with nothing backing it up. Its just a position that its much harder to defend.
Imperfect Cell Vs Pre-Rosat Super Saiyan Vegeta and Super Saiyan Trunks
This is the Cell that fought the newly merged Piccolo. Can he take down the duo?
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Imperfect Cell Vs Pre-Rosat Super Saiyan Vegeta and Super Saiyan Trunks
This is the Cell that fought the newly merged Piccolo. Can he take down the duo?
Hell, yes. Either Trunks or Vegeta could one shot Cell at this point, his was weaksauce before he went on his absorbing spree.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
I'm tempted to side with Cell due to a reasonable power advantage and regen... Nonetheless, Vegeta and Trunks can squeak out a victory though it'll be incredibly difficult and a well timed Final Flash is essential to picking up the win. Neither Saiyan is walking out unscathed and there is a probability one of them wont walk away at all.
Making it Vegeta and Goku would improve their chances, but it still wouldn't be easy.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Imperfect Cell Vs Pre-Rosat Super Saiyan Vegeta and Super Saiyan Trunks
This is the Cell that fought the newly merged Piccolo. Can he take down the duo?
I'd say Cell, he put up a decent fight against Piccolo who without regeneration probably could have lost himself and he knows what his tail is capable of.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:SSJ 3 Goku [End of Z] vs. SSJ Gotenks [post-RoSaT]
Goku as I would imagine Goku would make atleast enough gains to be to be on his level; though he likely surpassed him and he probably has better stamina in the form than in the buu arc as well.
Android arc hypothetical Super Saiyan Gohan(pre ROSAT) vs. android arc Piccolo(pre Kami fusion).
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:SSJ 3 Goku [End of Z] vs. SSJ Gotenks [post-RoSaT]
Gotenks. His power level spike after being in the ROSAT that he could have kicked Super Buu ass if he didn't fuck around so much. Ultimately SSJ3 would too much of Goku's ki before he can do some major damage. But at the same time Gotenks would be fucking around so much the when he's about the get serious, the fusion would have expired. As far as raw power goes though, SSJ Gotenks (Post ROSAT) still has the comfortable edge over SSJ3 Goku (End Of Z).
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Imperfect Cell Vs Pre-Rosat Super Saiyan Vegeta and Super Saiyan Trunks
This is the Cell that fought the newly merged Piccolo. Can he take down the duo?
No. 17 said No. 18 couldn't take the duo by herself and Cell seems to be weaker than her. I wonder if Vegeta even needs Trunks' help, he didn't make a remark on Cell's power while he did with Merged Piccolo.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:SSJ 3 Goku [End of Z] vs. SSJ Gotenks [post-RoSaT]
IMO, SS3 Goku was stronger than SS Gotenks during Boo Arc, but Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack would be a pain. Even so, I think Goku might pull a win against Gotenks if he goes all-out.
GogesusSSG wrote:Android arc hypothetical Super Saiyan Gohan(pre ROSAT) vs. android arc Piccolo(pre Kami fusion).
I don't think Piccolo was 50 times stronger than Gohan by that time, but assuming he was about 5~10 times, I don't think Piccolo has a chance.
