Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[dbzfan7]

I don't care about Vegeta's past, because neither does anyone else. That was a essentially a lifetime ago for him. Vegeta has shown that he's a good person, who would humiliate himself and put his own life at risk for the people around him. I think he deserves to defeat Freeza, the man who made his life a living hell, then proceeded to torture and murder him, regardless of what anyone says.

Vegeta's humiliation was also a lifetime ago, yet that still matters and not his horrible deeds? Hell Vegeta killed a bunch of people like 5 years prior to BOG and was one of the solely responsible people for bringing Boo back to life who went on to kill everyone on Earth. Wanting Vegeta to get the kill or whatever because Goku and Trunks already did is one thing, but he does not deserve revenge when it's that treatment that put him on the path he is on today. Without that humiliation Vegeta wouldn't be a good guy today. Vegeta's moment above anything should be accepting his past and realizing he deserved what happened to him and that Freeza in a way set him on the path to having his own family. Back then he'd kill his own kind if they were weak.

Vegeta's humiliation is personal between Freeza him.

Vegeta has a history with Freeza.

If Freeza is coming back, then I don't see anyone who deserves the win more. Goku getting a second win against Freeza is BORING TO ME, unless they somehow found a way to make it compelling. Vegeta, who is finally, 100% a good guy who is doing his best to protect the people cares about, would be far more interesting to me given the circumstances.

That's my opinion.

Yeah and that history was a struggle between two genocidal maniacs who both would go to any lengths for power and control. If Vegeta was on top he'd be just as cruel to Freeza. Makes no difference who'd be in power.

Your opinion is all fine an dandy, my issue is not with Vegeta scoring the kill. My issue is the belief that he deserves it because of what happened in the past. He deserved all the humiliation he got. As far as I see it things are even. Vegeta was a bastard and was punished for it by someone similar to him, but more powerful. Vegeta changed his ways and was rewarded with a family and a more peaceful life. Freeza was a bastard and was humiliated twice by his greatest fear, then killed. At one point he was pathetically spared to live his life knowing a lowly saiyan was better than him. That in a way is worth than death to him. Getting revenge for something Vegeta entirely deserved just feels wrong. I can understand and agree with Goku just getting another win off Freeza could be boring, but that reasoning for Vegeta I just can't side with. I'd rather Beerus or Whis be the one's to put him down in some funny manner or Vegeta realize he deserved everything he got over. "Hah take that Freeza, that's what you get for humiliating me and stopping me from being the galactic tyrant....oh..."

[JulieYBM]

I'm not sure Scott is speaking 'within universe'. As a character arc, Vegeta defeating Freeza at this point would be the most 'deserved' from a story point. Vegeta and Freeza are both horrible people (it's what makes them such fun characters), but that doesn't mean Vegeta doesn't earn participation and spotlight within the story.

[DragonBoxZTheMovies]

Finally got around to listening to the Unofficial One Piece Podcast episode that featured Greg's coverage of Jump Festa. At the risk of blowing his own words out of proportion, the amount of emphasis they were putting on the wind makes me can't help but think that Goku fights Freeza at the Yunzabit Highlands, if only for the Namek Arc connection. Realistically, it's probably just a generic location and the wind emphasis was just done for humourous effect.

Still, a fan can dream.

[El Diabeetus]

I only have limited Japanese knowledge. But when I first heard the title 復活の「F」, I instantly translated in my head as The Revival of [F]. I don't know, to me it seemed pretty straightforward.

復活 = (The) Revival
の = of/'s
F = F (Freeza)

So, The Revival of F, F's Revival, etc. Even without the Toriyama comments I came to that conclusion.

[dbzfan7]

I'm not sure Scott is speaking 'within universe'. As a character arc, Vegeta defeating Freeza at this point would be the most 'deserved' from a story point. Vegeta and Freeza are both horrible people (it's what makes them such fun characters), but that doesn't mean Vegeta doesn't earn participation and spotlight within the story.

As a character arc I wouldn't say so. Unless he doesn't do it out of revenge, but cause he has to. Should he realize he deserved everything he got in the past and that Freeza set him on this path to where he is now, I'd be more open to the idea. He shouldn't feel "Take that for making my life miserable". If anything it should be "It did feel good honestly to kill that bastard, but I did deserve what happened in the past. Perhaps without that horrid past, I'd have never settled here on earth."

[KaiserNeko]

Yeah and that history was a struggle between two genocidal maniacs who both would go to any lengths for power and control. If Vegeta was on top he'd be just as cruel to Freeza. Makes no difference who'd be in power.

Your opinion is all fine an dandy, my issue is not with Vegeta scoring the kill. My issue is the belief that he deserves it because of what happened in the past. He deserved all the humiliation he got. As far as I see it things are even. Vegeta was a bastard and was punished for it by someone similar to him, but more powerful. Vegeta changed his ways and was rewarded with a family and a more peaceful life. Freeza was a bastard and was humiliated twice by his greatest fear, then killed. At one point he was pathetically spared to live his life knowing a lowly saiyan was better than him. That in a way is worth than death to him. Getting revenge for something Vegeta entirely deserved just feels wrong. I can understand and agree with Goku just getting another win off Freeza could be boring, but that reasoning for Vegeta I just can't side with. I'd rather Beerus or Whis be the one's to put him down in some funny manner or Vegeta realize he deserved everything he got over. "Hah take that Freeza, that's what you get for humiliating me and stopping me from being the galactic tyrant....oh..."

Perhaps the bigger issue is that I've not properly explained my opinion on how Vegeta should actually FEEL about Freeza at this point.

I don't think Vegeta should see Freeza and then suddenly become overrun with rage/lust for vengeance against Freeza for how he treated him, or that what Vegeta got from Freeza wasn't (at least somewhat) karmic justice.

I just personally believe that the only person in the group, at this point, who has a real connection to Freeza, and is actually in the realm of being strong enough to defeat him, is Vegeta. There's a lot of bad blood there, moreso than any other character. While Vegeta has been an utter shit for most of the series, I think he's definitely a good guy now. He's suffered for it, he gave up his life for it, he humiliated himself for it. I don't think he's a shining golden god, but I do think he's in a position to be the victor in this fight. I don't think anyone else should get that win, besides him, unless the story somehow can make Goku defeating him compelling. Not completely out of reach, but should circumstances arise that knock Goku out of the running, then I'd happily see Vegeta rise up, over any other character, because of the history between the two.

This isn't revenge, necessarily. It just seems right to me that Vegeta get to put him down, over anyone else.

[dbzfan7]

I don't think Vegeta should see Freeza and then suddenly become overrun with rage/lust for vengeance against Freeza for how he treated him, or that what Vegeta got from Freeza wasn't (at least somewhat) karmic justice.

I just personally believe that the only person in the group, at this point, who has a real connection to Freeza, and is actually in the realm of being strong enough to defeat him, is Vegeta. There's a lot of bad blood there, moreso than any other character. While Vegeta has been an utter shit for most of the series, I think he's definitely a good guy now. He's suffered for it, he gave up his life for it, he humiliated himself for it. I don't think he's a shining golden god, but I do think he's in a position to be the victor in this fight. I don't think anyone else should get that win, besides him, unless the story somehow can make Goku defeating him compelling. Not completely out of reach, but should circumstances arise that knock Goku out of the running, then I'd happily see Vegeta rise up, over any other character, because of the history between the two.

This isn't revenge, necessarily. It just seems right to me that Vegeta get to put him down, over anyone else.

Krillin can put down Freeza for all I care as long as the reasoning is good. The poor guy nearly died from impalement if not for Dende, then was killed by Freeza in a pretty gruesome way. Goku himself has a pretty big beef considering this guy was the one who killed his friends and could very easily make it all happen again. Vegeta never really gave a crap about anyone but himself so the beef between Vegeta and Freeza is merely having been under his foot for so long. Vegeta's life wasn't really affected in the sense he was evil before and was evil after. Really made no difference if Freeza was there or not. Goku has never been so angry or furious at anyone outside of Freeza. The happy go lucky guy was a like a whole different person in that bout on Namek. Vegeta has a longer connection to Freeza, but it's a pretty meaningless one when it hardly effected him at all as a person. It set him on the path to earth, but on it's own that past didn't effect Vegeta's character. It just gave him a goal to strive to be the dominant super power.

Though still I'd be satisfied with Vegeta if he realized what that past brought him and that if it was really worth getting a shit early life, just to obtain what he had now. I'd like that over him just getting his revenge for a past he deserved. I don't think Vegeta deserves to beat or kill Freeza if we're just getting a "Take that" kind of thing. I'd be for it if it's not about revenge and avenging his humiliation so long as he realizes Freeza set him on the good path he is on now and deserved his past torture. But I'm against it if Vegeta gets it cause of revenge or because people just are tired of Goku winning. I am tired of Goku getting the final win, but I need more of a reason to pass that pleasure on to someone else. Vegeta has the potential if written right, but can so easily be written wrong that it'd be cringe worthy and terrible.

[Saiga]

From a character arc perspective, I think it's far better for Vegeta not to care about revenge. Having him finish Freeza would be like giving him a victory he shouldn't want any more, if he's really grown.

Granted I won't be satisfied with Goku beating Freeza either, but I am against the idea of Freeza coming back.

[RandomGuy96]

I know that it's a running theme for Goku, I wasn't criticizing that at all. Although to be fair, with Cell, that was a somewhat different story, nothing like the others.

As far as Vegeta's history goes, it's pretty easy to determine that Freeza was probably excessively violent with anyone that disobeyed him; despite Vegeta's own personal taste toward violence, that sort of control via fear is pretty terrible. I'm not saying Vegeta was anything less that a terrible person, very much up until the Cell Saga. Hell, if you ever watch our show, we absolutely love to spit in the face of the dub trying to flower him up by saying it was "FREEZA WHO MADE ME THIS WAY!" Regardless, it's still completely personal for Vegeta, who's entire race of people were forced into slavery, including himself, who was also tortured, then murdered, by the man in cold blood.

I'll repeat myself: Vegeta deserves it, from a storytelling perspective, more than Goku.

Goku doesn't really NEED this win against Freeza. Again, he already beat him. Trunks already beat him. Nobody else deserves this win OVER Vegeta at this point, to me.

It's not just a running theme for Goku. No one is really able to defeat their personal villain. Piccolo was Kami's, Raditz and Vegeta were Goku's (arguably), Freeza was Vegeta's, Cell was Trunks', and Buu was Kaioshin's (arguably, Super Buu was Gohan's too). Yet, despite these personal connections, these guys at best played second fiddle to the ones who actually beat the main villain.

That's the point. Vegeta never disobeyed him until then. We have no evidence that Vegeta's upbringing was all that bad. He seemed happy with his life of murder and butchery. And slavery? I'd like some proof that the saiyans were not compensated for their work, especially considering how they all enjoyed their work and seemed to have no shortage of resources. In the Bardock special (maybe Minus too, not sure), it's even made clear that the saiyans respect Freeza.

Well, that's the thing. I don't think Vegeta deserves it at all, from an in-universe or storytelling perspective. He's just as bad as Freeza, and I don't see what the story has to gain from bending reality again to wank Vegeta even more. He's just about the least deserving of the cast of ANYTHING at this point, whether it be victories, additional back story, or screen time. He already got tons of victories, tons of unnecessary back story, and more screen time than damn near anyone besides Goku, even if said screen time and victories need to be justified with the author throwing his hands up in the air and saying "fuck consistency". I'd be satisfied with literally anybody except Vegeta doing Freeza in at this point- well, I'd prefer if Freeza wasn't brought back at all, but, here we are.

In any case, Vegeta's placement on the poster + the promotional pictures of Goku apparently losing to Freeza + the promotional text declaring that Goku AND Vegeta will fight Freeza (Gohan and the others can go fuck off and fight Raditz-tier henchmen) + Toriyama's previous statement on Vegeta would all point towards this being a wish fulfillment adventure for Vegeta. Which is a shame for me, even if others prefer it that way.

From a character arc perspective, I think it's far better for Vegeta not to care about revenge. Having him finish Freeza would be like giving him a victory he shouldn't want any more, if he's really grown.

I don't think Vegeta would care all that much either. He only hated Freeza because of his pride. Now that Freeza is a relative weakling compared to him, he probably hasn't even thought about the guy since the Android arc. Similar to the situation with 18.

[dbzfan7]

From a character arc perspective, I think it's far better for Vegeta not to care about revenge. Having him finish Freeza would be like giving him a victory he shouldn't want any more, if he's really grown.

Granted I won't be satisfied with Goku beating Freeza either, but I am against the idea of Freeza coming back.

This pretty much sums it all up. I am excited to see Freeza again, but honestly if I had to choose new villain vs Freeza resurrection, I'd go new person.

[JulieYBM]

Well, I decided to be the prick who asked. Shida Naotoshi-san is not going to be involved in Fukkatsu no F.

@JulieYBM 関わってません。ドラゴンボールの別の仕事を色々やってますm(_ _)m

[Chuquita]

That is disappointing.
I honestly don't understand why they wouldn't involve him.

Re: Cinecom

So my anxiousness won and I tried to read the blurb at the bottom.
I could not. It's way too blurry.
But I did go through and highlight all instances of character names that I found.
Vegeta is only mentioned once, weirdly enough. Beerus gets more name-drops than him.

It's possible I missed some. Again; it's very blurry.

[Big Momma]

Well, I decided to be the prick who asked. Shida Naotoshi-san is not going to be involved in Fukkatsu no F.

@JulieYBM 関わってません。ドラゴンボールの別の仕事を色々やってますm(_ _)m

That's a bummer.

[JulieYBM]

Yeah, I'm not sure if this was an issue of "you can't work on this film, you've worked on too much Dragon Ball" or he simply didn't feel like it. I'm not sure, all I know is Director Yamamuro Tadayoshi needs to pull a pretty damned big rabbit out of his hat now.

[Chuquita]

Not utilizing Shida makes even less sense after Toriyama's "action scenes increased" comment. T_T

[JulieYBM]

Not utilizing Shida makes even less sense after Toriyama's "action scenes increased" comment. T_T

Yeah, that's the real pisser. Who knows, maybe Yamamuro got Kan'no Toshiyuki to get some of his friends from Madhouse and Studio Live to put together good fight animation. Or by some miracle of God somebody let Hamano Yuu'ichi do a ton of action animation. I'd suggest Shishido Nozomu, but he's been busy working on episodes of Disk Wars: Avengers as an assistant episode director.

This is such a pickle to be in, because right now we really don't know who in the world could have been working on the film. The only connections I can think of in relation to Yamamuro Tadayoshi have all been busy working with other studios or are simply not very good.

[DragonBoxZTheMovies]

Anyone else find it odd that the new characters have still not been cast?

[JulieYBM]

Anyone else find it odd that the new characters have still not been cast?

A bit, although for all we know they simply have yet to announce who is voicing them. Since they're both likely to be schmucks I doubt they will be stunt-casted, like Matsumoto Kaori was in the previous film. My guess is the audio director will simply cast regular low-ranking voice actors most of us are already familiar with.

[Chuquita]

It is strange we don't know the voices yet. I also find it odd that we still know so little about the plot. T_T Almost every news bit so far has been about tie-in stuff.
That's why I'm desperately hoping this Cinecom Walker magazine has something plot-related inside it.

Re: Animators
I guess there's no off-chance of getting any Tate, is there?

[FindKenshi]

So with Gohan apparently being SSj in the promo material, does this raise a huge WTF flag for anyone? After they went through the pre-production stuff with Gohan in Battle of Gods.. didn't fan outcry lead to them re-painting Gohan's hair black at the last minute to appease fans and correct continuity? And now he's appearing as SSj again? It's just the little things like this that make it seem kinda pointless to be a stickler about continuity in Dragon Ball. I mean, clearly, the people producing the movies don't care anywhere near as much as we do.