The Validity of the Daizenshuu

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:47 pm

MartianOddity! In real life, I don't frequent people who would settle arguments with their fists.

I imagine you would provoke the most gentle of souls into violence.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:14 pm

Victator Supreme wrote:I imagine you would provoke the most gentle of souls into violence.

Is there a way to tell you that you'd be wrong without "provoking you into violence"?

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:28 pm

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:39 pm

Victator Supreme wrote:
Olivier Hague wrote:
Victator Supreme wrote:I imagine you would provoke the most gentle of souls into violence.
Is there a way to tell you that you'd be wrong without "provoking you into violence"?
No

That was short and sweet.

I'm enjoying this thread so far. It's very entertaining. Like an episode of Celebrity Deathmatch.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:45 pm

"One little, two little, three little fanboys! Four little, five little, six little fanboys! Seven little, eight little, nine little fanboys! Ten little fanboys, all staring at their navals!"

This thread became ludicrous 5 years ago.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:15 pm

Excuse me while I try to find my sanity again, after wading through this...

There are a lot of things I'd like to touch on but... I wont. Hell, I don't even know *why* I'm posting at all, but I am. So, let's just get this over with.

Seriously, again, the Tenshinhan argument is plain ducking fumb. (intentional I assure you)

Why would they even write as such without good reason?

What evidence exists that he's human in the manga?

Precisely as much exists to the extent that he's an alien.

None.

So why would they even go so far as to create that?

I'm going to propose something here. It's revolutionary and it may very well blow the threshold of your very soul straight the fuck out your ear but what if they.....

asked AT.

Oh, obviously. They asked the man who forgot who Lunch and Kamesenin were as to wether or not Tien was a human or an alien and he gave them the correct answer off the top of his head.

Actually, it's far more likely that what they did with Tien's origins was the same as what the end for the origins of the Dragonballs. They made it up for no reason other than to have extra information.

AT supports daiz.

Toriyama-sama also supports GT and we all know how much THAT got wrong. His support =/= correct. The books got his approval to be created. That's it. He didn't write the information for the books. The people who made the books culled through the manga, anime, and movies and gathered their information and transplanted that into the books. Therefor, if something in the books is different than the manga, movies, or anime it's because they goofed when they added it. If something is in the books but not in the manga, anime, or movies it's because they just invented it.

Information from the books that matches information from the manga, the anime, or the movies is factual information. Information that does not much that in the manga, movies, or anime is incorrect information. And information that was pulled out of their asses is just that, pulled out of their asses.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:39 pm

Xyex wrote:Oh, obviously. They asked the man who forgot who Lunch and Kamesenin were as to wether or not Tenshinhan was a human or an alien and he gave them the correct answer off the top of his head.

Toriyama has notes, you know.

They made it up for no reason other than to have extra information.

Considering that made up for a dozen of extra characters on a page that already had a lot of text, I'm not sure I'd see the point though...

Toriyama-sama also supports GT and we all know how much THAT got wrong.

Here we go again... Yeah, the Daizenshû and "Dragon Ball GT" are pretty much the same thing, right?

The books got his approval to be created. That's it.

That's not it, actually. He supervised them. And he provided the staff with information.

He didn't write the information for the books.

How do you know he didn't?

Information from the books that matches information from the manga, the anime, or the movies is factual information. Information that does not much that in the manga, movies, or anime is incorrect information.

You don't know that. But thanks for assuming.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:55 pm

Yo, Olivier Hague, your very, very annoying. It seems that your only purpose is to try shutting people up with no information, just questioning their logic. You ask people how they know things, what about you? What do you know? What is your info to back it up. Your just a prick who likes to get under people's skin imo. I know for a fact that he wouldn't be so quick to pester people if he wasn't behind a computer screen.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:58 pm

Mr.Piccolo wrote:Yo, Olivier Hague, your very, very annoying. It seems that your only purpose is to try shutting people up with no information, just questioning their logic. You ask people how they know things, what about you? What do you know? What is your info to back it up. Your just a prick who likes to get under people's skin imo. I know for a fact that he wouldn't be so quick to pester people if he wasn't behind a computer screen.

Regardless of what my agreement may or may not be with this, I do want to point out that this is not only poorly written, but a pointless personal attack.

People, if you can't argue properly, don't waste my god damn time. Find another forum. This goes for every single person that's posted in this thread.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:16 pm

Mr.Piccolo wrote:It seems that your only purpose is to try shutting people up with no information, just questioning their logic.

And questioning someone's logic in a debate is... bad?

You ask people how they know things, what about you? What do you know?

I don't know either. We've been there many times already.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:31 am

This thread is hilarious. I find it insanely amusing that people can't accept that Toriyama may have had ideas for the characters that weren't expressly put into the manga or the anime.

Does it really change anything if Ten is an alien? It sure doesn't for me. And also, I think someone else mentioned this, but it's not unusual for Daizenshuu/Compendium type books to have new info that is canon but was not told previously in their related works. Hell, the Phantasy Star Compendium tells a whole lot about the series, but I don't call it non-canon because those facts weren't expressly communicated in the series.

-Corey

Pang_Tong · Post by **Pang_Tong** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:21 am

Ya know..I consider myself a knowledgeable fan who's up for some friendly debate about my favorite sci fi/martial arts anime, but you guys are crazy and touchy about all this. Sheeeesh

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:05 am

How do you know he didn't?

And how do you know he did? If you want to prove the Daizenshuu's are on the same level of cannon as the manga and that the extraneous information in them is, in fact, correct, you must prove that Toriyama-sama wrote that information just like it can be proven that he wrote the manga. Information directly from the author (manga/interviews) superceeds information from a third source. This is common sense within any fandom.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:10 am

MajinVejitaXV wrote:This thread is hilarious. I find it insanely amusing that people can't accept that Toriyama may have had ideas for the characters that weren't expressly put into the manga or the anime.

I don't think that's the case. The problem lies within the fact that Toriyama himself didn't write the books.
For instance, I'm a fan of the Final Fantasy VII guide books (Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, Final Fantasy VII Advent Children: Reunion Files, ect) because the comments in the books are actually from the staff (such as Tetsuya Nomura and Yoshinori Kitase). That's the key difference between them and the Daizenshuu.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:36 am

Xyex wrote:
How do you know he didn't?
And how do you know he did?

I don't. I'm just saying he could have. So you can't say that he didn't.

If you want to prove the Daizenshuu's are on the same level of cannon as the manga and that the extraneous information in them is, in fact, correct

I don't.

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:The problem lies within the fact that Toriyama himself didn't write the books.
For instance, I'm a fan of the Final Fantasy VII guide books (Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, Final Fantasy VII Advent Children: Reunion Files, ect) because the comments in the books are actually from the staff (such as Tetsuya Nomura and Yoshinori Kitase). That's the key difference between them and the Daizenshuu.

There's no difference, actually. In both cases, the creators were involved and provided information and comments, but they didn't actually write the books.
So, er... That was a good example. ^^;

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:11 am

I think we should listen to Olivier Hauge, he has from my conclusions had lunch with Toriyama.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:26 am

Godo wrote:I think we should listen to Olivier Hauge, he has from my conclusions had lunch with Toriyama.

No, he is Toriyama.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:29 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:The problem lies within the fact that Toriyama himself didn't write the books.
For instance, I'm a fan of the Final Fantasy VII guide books (Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, Final Fantasy VII Advent Children: Reunion Files, ect) because the comments in the books are actually from the staff (such as Tetsuya Nomura and Yoshinori Kitase). That's the key difference between them and the Daizenshuu.
There's no difference, actually. In both cases, the creators were involved and provided information and comments, but they didn't actually write the books.
So, er... That was a good example. ^^;

Incorrect. Like I said, the comments in the Final Fantasy VII books are actually from the creators. It will say something like “blah blah blah Sephiroth did this”-Tetsuya Nomura. That’s quite different than the Daizenshuu, which were written by people other than Toriyama and based on his work (I see no evidence that he was even involved in it, as he says he had already forgotten a lot of the manga).

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:26 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Incorrect. Like I said, the comments in the Final Fantasy VII books are actually from the creators.

They provided comments, but they didn't actually write the books.

"Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega" was published by Square Enix (just like the Daizenshû were published by Shûeisha) but written by Studio BentStuff, just like all the other Ultimania guides. The game's staff (well, Nomura and Nojima, anyway) simply supervised the making of the book, like is said in the credits on the last page.

Same thing for "Final Fantasy VII Advent Children ~Reunion Files~", except this one wasn't published by Square Enix: it was published and written by SoftBank Creative.

It will say something like “blah blah blah Sephiroth did this”-Tetsuya Nomura.

Yes, there are interviews and comments from the game's staff here and there.

That’s quite different than the Daizenshuu

That's exactly like the Daizenshû, actually: interviews and comments here and there.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:42 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:"Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega" was published by Square Enix (just like the Daizenshû were published by Shûeisha) but written by Studio BentStuff, just like all the other Ultimania guides. The game's staff (well, Nomura and Nojima, anyway) simply supervised the making of the book, like is said in the credits on the last page.

Same thing for "Final Fantasy VII Advent Children ~Reunion Files~", except this one wasn't published by Square Enix: it was published and written by SoftBank Creative.

My apologies for sounding childish, but I do believe the person being replied to got owned here. I can verify what Olivier says from my own copy of FFVII: Ultimania Omega.

-Corey