Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
RandomGuy96 wrote:
I have no problem with the general idea of comic relief in this movie. Freeza is a very silly man, with a very silly name, and is the main antagonist of a very silly arc.
I'm sure the Namekians were thinking that when their homes were getting destroyed and their children were getting murdered
"I will literally dress as Goku and walk around jumping up and down, pretending to fly, in public if this ever gets an official release"
dbzfan7 wrote:When you use the term "DEEBEEZEE", you mock people who treat the whole show as serious business when it's not
But an animated TV show's fanbase clearly has to be home to the intellectual elite, not regular everyday joes
Well then they don't know Toriyama as dumb jokes are his thing. Dude does freaking poop jokes.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:
I have no problem with the general idea of comic relief in this movie. Freeza is a very silly man, with a very silly name, and is the main antagonist of a very silly arc.
I'm sure the Namekians were thinking that when their homes were getting destroyed and their children were getting murdered
A silly man with a stupidly high power level, but a silly man nonetheless. Silly enough to spare the strongest Saiyan while ostensibly fearing the Super Saiyan, recruit a group of henchmen even though none of them approach 0.1% of his strength and are all useless, kill off planets and sell the real estate when actually enslaving populations would be much more useful, use money when he's powerful enough to just take whatever he wants anyway, let his entire army get slaughtered rather than step out of his chair for one minute, throw a temper tantrum when surpassed, think he's hot shit even when he's missing 2/3 of his body, screw around with less than 1% of his power for the majority of his screen time, let a giant ball of ki be charged to throw at him, and generally act like the Saturday morning cartoon villain that he is. To add on to the silliness, everyone treats him as a complete joke after Goku goes Super Saiyan, to the point that Goku almost feels bad for him because he's so weak and dumb. Then Trunks one-shots him.
Also, his name is Freeza. And killing 100 Namekians is hardly worthy of comment when a minor villain blew up a city containing millions of people just by raising two fingers. Oh, and a later villain killed over a billion people in about thirty seconds by raising one arm, with a look of boredom.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:43 pm, edited 7 times in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
You guys want silly shit when Frieza's around, huh? Go ahead, have at it, but don't be surprised when you see a lot of people telling Toriyama to retire. Even now I'm feeling the urge to say that, that's IF this movie sucks and too lighthearted like BoG was(though I still liked it). Like, DBZ ain't all about "happy happy joy joy" and a bunch of little kids and midgets runnin' around, save that for the original DB.
Akira Toriyama wrote:If anyone. ANYONE AT TOEI! Makes a movie about old and weak major villains returning, or making recolored versions of Super Saiyan, I'ma come to yo company and evict you from doing Dragon Ball ever again! Only I do those things, because people love me, and they despise you....derp!
Marco Polo wrote:Goku Black is a fan of DBZ who hates Super and has taken the form of a younger Goku (thinner shape, softer hair) to avenge the original series by destroying the new.
EXBadguy wrote: You guys want silly shit when Freeza's around, huh? Go ahead, have at it, but don't be surprised when you see a lot of people telling Toriyama to retire. Even now I'm feeling the urge to say that, that's IF this movie sucks and too lighthearted like BoG was(though I still liked it). Like, DBZ ain't all about "happy happy joy joy" and a bunch of little kids and midgets runnin' around, save that for the original DB.
Hey if these people want serious stuff, go watch Hokuto no Ken. A lone badass, hardly any humour at all, all about being dark as innocents are killed all the time. I don't think you can go a single episode of that show without someone dying.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
EXBadguy wrote: You guys want silly shit when Freeza's around, huh? Go ahead, have at it, but don't be surprised when you see a lot of people telling Toriyama to retire. Even now I'm feeling the urge to say that, that's IF this movie sucks and too lighthearted like BoG was(though I still liked it). Like, DBZ ain't all about "happy happy joy joy" and a bunch of little kids and midgets runnin' around, save that for the original DB.
Hey if these people want serious stuff, go watch Hokuto no Ken. A lone badass, hardly any humour at all, all about being dark as innocents are killed all the time. I don't think you can go a single episode of that show without someone dying.
I'm not saying it should be like that. I'm just saying that it should be similar to most of the earlier movies, comedy for the first 15-20 minutes and then the rest of the movie, no more screwing around, less "happy happy joy joy" and more "FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! DROPDEAD! DROPDEAD"! That was the problem with BoG....TOO. MUCH. GAG! Felt like watching a little kids show.
Even the darkest saga of the DB series(Cell) had comedy roots, even if it was just a little bit. Toriyama should really take notes from whoever did the movies.
Akira Toriyama wrote:If anyone. ANYONE AT TOEI! Makes a movie about old and weak major villains returning, or making recolored versions of Super Saiyan, I'ma come to yo company and evict you from doing Dragon Ball ever again! Only I do those things, because people love me, and they despise you....derp!
Marco Polo wrote:Goku Black is a fan of DBZ who hates Super and has taken the form of a younger Goku (thinner shape, softer hair) to avenge the original series by destroying the new.
EXBadguy wrote: You guys want silly shit when Freeza's around, huh? Go ahead, have at it, but don't be surprised when you see a lot of people telling Toriyama to retire. Even now I'm feeling the urge to say that, that's IF this movie sucks and too lighthearted like BoG was(though I still liked it). Like, DBZ ain't all about "happy happy joy joy" and a bunch of little kids and midgets runnin' around, save that for the original DB.
Hey if these people want serious stuff, go watch Hokuto no Ken. A lone badass, hardly any humour at all, all about being dark as innocents are killed all the time. I don't think you can go a single episode of that show without someone dying.
I'm not saying it should be like that. I'm just saying that it should be similar to most of the earlier movies, comedy for the first 15230 minutes and then the rest of the movie, no more screwing around, less "happy happy joy joy" and more "FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! DROPDEAD! DROPDEAD"! That was the problem with BoG....TOO. MUCH. GAG! Felt like watching a little kids show.
Even the darkest saga of the DB series(Cell) had comedy roots, even if it was just a little bit. Toriyama should really take notes from whoever did the movies.
It kind of is a kids show. Also I love screwing around with the dire stuff, it pretty much goes against how normally most shows would just have everything be more serious. One of the best and most stand out scenes for me in the Boo saga was Goku and Kid Boo biting each other. This is a psychopath bent on destroying everything, the universe is on the line, and those two bite each other.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
EXBadguy wrote:
I'm not saying it should be like that. I'm just saying that it should be similar to most of the earlier movies, comedy for the first 15230 minutes and then the rest of the movie, no more screwing around, less "happy happy joy joy" and more "FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU! DROPDEAD! DROPDEAD"! That was the problem with BoG....TOO. MUCH. GAG! Felt like watching a little kids show.
Even the darkest saga of the DB series(Cell) had comedy roots, even if it was just a little bit. Toriyama should really take notes from whoever did the movies.
Maybe because you were watching a kids a show? Didn't they trim BoG 'cuz they thought kids can't sit still for long?
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Maybe because you were watching a kids a show?
Doesn't matter! Look at the earlier movies and the King Piccolo saga to the Cell saga and you'll see why 1/3 of DB and most of Z stand out. Most of it because of its balance between seriousness, dark atmosphere, and sometimes comedy when the time is right. BoG didn't have any of that, it just had too many lighthearted-ness and hardly any seriousness and dark moments until the end, and look at how many people are pissed about Pilaf being back. I agree, they should wait to see how the plot turns out, but I don't blame them for being pissed, cuz that stupid gang DID almost ruin BoG.
For Toriyama to say that he gives up "badass feel" when it comes to story makes many people doubt him a bit now. Look at the reception DB Minus got.
Akira Toriyama wrote:If anyone. ANYONE AT TOEI! Makes a movie about old and weak major villains returning, or making recolored versions of Super Saiyan, I'ma come to yo company and evict you from doing Dragon Ball ever again! Only I do those things, because people love me, and they despise you....derp!
Marco Polo wrote:Goku Black is a fan of DBZ who hates Super and has taken the form of a younger Goku (thinner shape, softer hair) to avenge the original series by destroying the new.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Maybe because you were watching a kids a show?
Doesn't matter! Look at the earlier movies and the King Piccolo saga to the Cell saga and you'll see why 1/3 of DB and most of Z stand out. Most of it because of its balance between seriousness, dark atmosphere, and sometimes comedy when the time is right. BoG didn't have any of that, it just had too many lighthearted-ness and hardly any seriousness and dark moments until the end, and look at how many people are pissed about Pilaf being back. I agree, they should wait to see how the plot turns out, but I don't blame them for being pissed, cuz that stupid gang DID almost ruin BoG.
For Toriyama to say that he gives up "badass feel" when it comes to story makes many people doubt him a bit now. Look at the reception DB Minus got.
Dragon Ball is a Shonen anime/manga. Its main target audience are boys between the age of 10-18. There will always be an emphasis of light-hearted comedy and gag humour because that is Dragon Ball's charm, and the main reason many people fell in love with the franchise in the first place and why Dragon Ball became so popular. Any movie can have a heavy emphasis on comedy and still have drama, action and characters. Guardians Of The Galaxy is proof of that.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Maybe because you were watching a kids a show?
Doesn't matter! Look at the earlier movies and the King Piccolo saga to the Cell saga and you'll see why 1/3 of DB and most of Z stand out. Most of it because of its balance between seriousness, dark atmosphere, and sometimes comedy when the time is right. BoG didn't have any of that, it just had too many lighthearted-ness and hardly any seriousness and dark moments until the end, and look at how many people are pissed about Pilaf being back. I agree, they should wait to see how the plot turns out, but I don't blame them for being pissed, cuz that stupid gang DID almost ruin BoG.
For Toriyama to say that he gives up "badass feel" when it comes to story makes many people doubt him a bit now. Look at the reception DB Minus got.
So you basically enjoy the uncommon parts of Dragon Ball. Not what Dragon Ball normally is then. The serious side of Dragon Ball is hardly what I'd say is what made it popular, as you can find tons of other series that do that. It's the fact it kept things positive when most series would always be grim. 10 days til the Cell Games, we can still be happy and enjoy ourselves. The common response would be to simply prepare prepare and prepare some more, but instead there was good times had. Also the Pilaf Gang hardly ruined anything. They are barely prominent so you could just fast forward over their parts. It's not like they were the ones who saved the day or set Beerus off. The serious stuff is far more powerful when it's rare. The few times where even the happy go lucky Goku can be brought down to being overly serious are powerful moments. I like it that way.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Storm101 wrote:I wonder how many kids even watched BoG? I figured the main audience was adults who grew up with it since it's so old.
Depends what you mean when you use that phrase. The show/manga has always been intended for teens/pre-teens while also having occasional adult & under 10 fans. In the US/west it seems the target age demographic has kept getting higher as the dubs get more accurate. At first it was aimed at little children under 10, then when the censorship ended it was aimed at pre-teens/teens just like in Japan. Now with Kai it seems FUNi are aiming the show at young adults in their early 20s.
"I will literally dress as Goku and walk around jumping up and down, pretending to fly, in public if this ever gets an official release"
Yeah I understand that, but I can't imagine the kid/teen fanbase is very big anymore. Maybe I'm underestimating it though, I'm sure Kai brought in a lot of younger fans.
Storm101 wrote:I wonder how many kids even watched BoG? I figured the main audience was adults who grew up with it since it's so old.
I think some kids who watch Kai on CW and Nick Toons may have ask their parents or guardians to buy the movie on DVD or Blu-Ray for them. Mostly DBZ is mainly market to older people now since Funimation tends to market DBZ to a older market now. It's like how it is with Robotech where Robotech was popular with kids in the 80's and the people who like it now are mainly adults. In Japan, Dragon Ball is market to kids from 4 - 13. They still make toys and other merchandise for kids to play with.
Not sure where all the hate for Pilaf & Co. is coming from, I loved them in BoG and am stoked to have them coming back. IMO, They're the embodiment of what Dragon Ball was in the beginning, and what it is at it's heart. I find it hard to believe that someone can love the series but hate them so much.
Rocketman(In response to a post about Pandora's Box) wrote:
I sat here for ten damn minutes wondering what the hell God of War had to do with any of this.
Insertclevername wrote:I plan to lose my virginity to Dragon Box 2.
Maybe some people just want DEEBEEZEEEEEE! UGGGGGGGGGGGH CEREAL BUSINESS! SOMEONE DIE DAMMIT!
Or maybe some people just don't want irrelevant, unfunny characters shoehorned into the movie only to draw poo's on the wall just to appeal to the little kiddy crowd? Maybe some people would rather have this wasted screentime go to main characters like Piccolo or Krillin actually doing something.
Dragon Ball as a whole has always been a solid mix of action and comedy to me which is why the funny moments never really stuck out like sore thumbs in Z.
It's not too late. One day, it will be.
Peace And Power MF DOOM!
Peace and Power Kevin Samuels
Maybe some people just want DEEBEEZEEEEEE! UGGGGGGGGGGGH CEREAL BUSINESS! SOMEONE DIE DAMMIT!
Or maybe some people just don't want irrelevant, unfunny characters shoehorned into the movie only to draw poo's on the wall just to appeal to the little kiddy crowd? Maybe some people would rather have this wasted screentime go to main characters like Piccolo or Krillin actually doing something.
Welcome to Dragon Ball. Enjoy your stay in this silly world or move on to the Hokuto no Ken world of serious Beezknees..
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Maybe some people just want DEEBEEZEEEEEE! UGGGGGGGGGGGH CEREAL BUSINESS! SOMEONE DIE DAMMIT!
Or maybe some people just don't want irrelevant, unfunny characters shoehorned into the movie only to draw poo's on the wall just to appeal to the little kiddy crowd? Maybe some people would rather have this wasted screentime go to main characters like Piccolo or Krillin actually doing something.
I'll admit it would have been funnier if Piccolo was drawing poo.
You guys want silly shit when Frieza's around, huh? Go ahead, have at it, but don't be surprised when you see a lot of people telling Toriyama to retire. Even now I'm feeling the urge to say that, that's IF this movie sucks and too lighthearted like BoG was(though I still liked it). Like, DBZ ain't all about "happy happy joy joy" and a bunch of little kids and midgets runnin' around, save that for the original DB.
