Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

[Kamiccolo9]

Except you don't have to lower your battle power to not use full force, that's when your muscles come into play.

Do you suppress your battle power when you're holding a glass of water so you don't break it? Or do you just not use the full force of your grip so it doesn't break?

Goku does, yes. Remember when he accidentally slapped Chi-Chi through a wall? There's a reason these people walk around with battle powers of 5.

And in real life, we don't have ki powering ourselves.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

And as said before; remember how Nappa's kick didn't break Tenshinhan's skull, yet his punch took Tenshinhan's arm off? You can call gaps 'inconsistent' but that's literally the same fight.

[Kamiccolo9]

And as said before; remember how Nappa's kick didn't break Tenshinhan's skull, yet his punch took Tenshinhan's arm off? You can call gaps 'inconsistent' but that's literally the same fight.

And? Nappa also took hits from Goku with a similar gap, and didn't suffer dismemberment. As both rereboy and I mentioned earlier.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Different fight. You need an in-universe explanation for how Nappa's punch took of Tenshinhan's arm, yet his kick didn't take off Tenshinhan's head/break his skull.

[singsing]

iunno I've usually found myself siding with kamicollo over gohan whenever I read their debates but I agree with gohan. You can be at your highest power level but just not hitting as hard as you can. It makes perfect sense to me. You don't have to be suppressed to a power level of 5 to hit with a power level of 5. It just takes an active effort to do so.

[Kamiccolo9]

Different fight. You need an in-universe explanation for how Nappa's punch took of Tenshinhan's arm, yet his kick didn't take off Tenshinhan's head/break his skull.

Nappa was using a special attack. When he struck Tenshinhan's arm, he had that aura thing around his hand. When he kicked him, he didn't have it around his leg.

iunno I've usually found myself siding with kamicollo over gohan whenever I read their debates but I agree with gohan. You can be at your highest power level but just not hitting as hard as you can. It makes perfect sense to me. You don't have to be suppressed to a power level of 5 to hit with a power level of 5. It just takes an active effort to do so.

You can believe what you want. You just can't use it as evidence to prove anything without having proved that theory first.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Ok..

there's still something else I don't understand:

Goku tells Gohan to finish Cell off, and Gohan refuses. So we know Gohan is holding back on Cell. But Gohan never powered down, and still has an aura, so he's not suppressing his ki. So how is he holding back or suppressed?

[Kamiccolo9]

Ok..

there's still something else I don't understand:

Goku tells Gohan to finish Cell off, and Gohan refuses. So we know Gohan is holding back on Cell. But Gohan never powered down, and still has an aura, so he's not suppressing his ki. So how is he holding back or suppressed?

Both. Because they are the same thing.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

No, Gohan isn't suppressing his ki. He has an aura, and he never powered down.

[Kamiccolo9]

No, Gohan isn't suppressing his ki. He has an aura, and he never powered down.

And Goku's aura when only using half his power on Karin's tower was more impressive than his later one going to full power against Cell. And since you are bringing more stuff into this, you have to prove that auras are consistent when it comes to portraying greater amounts of power.

As far as I can remember, the most impressive aura demonstrated was Vegeta's in the Saiyan Arc. Is Saiyan Arc Vegeta stronger than SSJ2 Gohan? Vegeta's power shook the Earth; Gohan's didn't.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

It doesn't matter how impressive it is.

After reading the fight, I don't see one panel where Gohan powers down, or anyone commenting that Gohan's ki went down.

[Kamiccolo9]

It doesn't matter how impressive it is.

After reading the fight, I don't see one panel where Gohan powers down, or anyone commenting that Gohan's ki went down.

And everything has to be spelled out....why? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Because, no one commented on Gohan's ki going down.

It's such a simple concept. You're taking the literal definition too far. In fact, iirc, you're the one who said I was taking the literal definition of "rivalry" too far.

No one's ever said to "hold back" your ki when they hide, they always tell them to suppress themselves, like Kuririn telling Gohan to suppress their chi when they hide from Freeza/Dodoria/Zarbon. Kuririn tells No.18 to "take it easy" against the humans in the Budokai, meaning don't go full force, not to lower her ki level.

Suppressing is used when talking about ki output usually, while holding back can just be effort.

[Kamiccolo9]

Because, no one commented on Gohan's ki going down.

It's such a simple concept. You're taking the literal definition too far. In fact, iirc, you're the one who said I was taking the literal definition of "rivalry" too far.

No one's ever said to "hold back" your ki when they hide, they always tell them to suppress themselves, like Kuririn telling Gohan to suppress their chi when they hide from Freeza/Dodoria/Zarbon. Kuririn tells No.18 to "take it easy" against the humans in the Budokai, meaning don't go full force, not to lower her ki level.

Suppressing is used when talking about ki output usually, while holding back can just be effort.

If it's such a simple concept, you should be able to prove it. Yet you haven't. And you keep throwing out other fan theories as evidence to support this one, and have failed to prove any of them either.

No one has to comment on anything. We know that Gohan was torturing Cell, purposely not killing him. That's all we have to know, in order to know that Gohan's not going all out.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Yes, and no one said he has to suppress hi ki level to do that. Nowhere is it stated. All you have to do is not put full force behind the punch.

Again, if you were to lightly tap something, do you suppress your battle power or just not put as much force behind your hit as your normally do?

[Kamiccolo9]

Yes, and no one said he has to suppress hi ki level to do that. Nowhere is it stated. All you have to do is not put full force behind the punch.

Again, if you were to lightly tap something, do you suppress your battle power or just not put as much force behind your hit as your normally do?

Both.

You offered a definition of suppressing that goes against the actual definition of the word. You have to prove that your definition is right. You have not done this.

And now this thread is waaaaay off-topic.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

No one, not one person has ever been told to "hold back" their ki in the show. They always use the word suppress when referring to battle power.

When someone suppresses, they are holding back, but if someone holds back, they don't need to suppress.

Cell lowers his battle power so he can fight with Goku, thus making him hold back.

Gohan holds back on Cell by not killing him by not punching him full force. But Gohan doesn't need to literally lower his ki output to do this, just not use full force behind his punch.

So they are the same, just used for two different things.

I can't explain it, but what I'm trying to say is, yes Gohan is "suppressing" his punch when he holds back on Cell, but he doesn't need to actively lower his ki output/battle power to do so.

[Kamiccolo9]

No one, not one person has ever been told to "hold back" their ki in the show. They always use the word suppress when referring to battle power.

When someone suppresses, they are holding back, but if someone holds back, they don't need to suppress.

Cell lowers his battle power so he can fight with Goku, thus making him hold back.

Gohan holds back on Cell by not killing him by not punching him full force. But Gohan doesn't need to literally lower his ki output to do this, just not use full force behind his punch.

So they are the same, just used for two different things.

I can't explain it, but what I'm trying to say is, yes Gohan is "suppressing" his punch when he holds back on Cell, but he doesn't need to actively lower his ki output/battle power to do so.

Again, you have to prove this, in order to use it as a fact to support an argument. You have not proven that the actual definition of the words are wrong and that your view is correct.

Now, unless you can do so, I suggest you drop this so the thread can get back on track.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Because effort and ki output don't have to correlate.

Why can't Gohan suppress his punch without suppressing his ki output?

[Kamiccolo9]

Because effort and ki output don't have to correlate.

Why can't Gohan suppress his punch without suppressing his ki output?

I told you, this is off-topic. Prove your point, or drop it.