Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Metalwario64 » Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:45 pm

AjayLikesGaming wrote:
Metalwario64 wrote:
I'd love to see a clip of that scene.
Your wish is my command - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5guE7emlOI

Includes Gohan's power-up and then his arrival to the battlefield.
Geez...

I think I might honestly prefer Faulconer Production's Buu-arc score over Sumitomo's... It nailed both scenes much better... Even if it's mostly down to Kai's horrid placement.
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Naruto6583 » Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:26 pm

Tried a different approach this time meshed kikuchi with gohan arriving on the battlefield https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O74FeK75YOg
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Cold Skin » Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:19 am

Ah, nice to see the music for Gohan's power-up is well-synchronized.
It's funny when everyone gets wind in their faces in ridiculous ways, then it becomes "Megaman X" heroic for the rest of the power-up deforming the landscape, and then it gets back to funny again for everyone being jaw-dropped.

They understood the fact that you cannot have a serious epic music for that scene: there's no danger and it's just a show-off that makes everyone else look ridiculous due to the strong wind.
Ultimate Tenkaichi did nail it too: it has to have that "goofy" feel while also having a hint of epicness due to the fact that the power is amazing, but it's all friends there, it is nothing but a goofy show off, like someone who would be flying for the first time but "stumbling through the air" ridiculously: amazing as it breaks limit but in a goofy way for the first try.

It has to be "silly epicness" and nothing else, a "both magic and silly moment" certainly not something seriously epic, something like "dude, your new power is amazing, but seriously, you HAVE to learn how to control it".

The music for Gohan arriving is just perfect: tells you "serious shit is gonna go down, brace yourself, something unstoppable comes this way and will brutally change everything".

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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by LuckyCat » Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:40 pm

Eh they still could've used Burning Ambition without being too serious. They really went over the top using Respect the Hero. I guess the underlying problem is there aren't as many tracks to use in general so we keep hearing tracks that have been overplayed and associated with other moments from Buu Kai. Scene after scene of Gotenk's shenanigans have used Respect the Hero, so much that it feels anticlimactic to give Gohan's power up the same mood.
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by TheKingOfKamehamehas » Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:24 pm

So much hate... I thought it was a decent music choice too. Just a cool power up for Gohan nothing else. Sure they probably could have done better, but at least it wasn't like the disco music.
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by MagicBox » Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:20 am

AjayLikesGaming wrote:Your wish is my command - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5guE7emlOI
I should *not* be thinking "I'd gladly take Faulconer's version over this" while watching Japanese Dragon Ball.

So happy this monstrosity will be ending in a few weeks.
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Kid Buu » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:33 am

AjayLikesGaming wrote:Your wish is my command - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5guE7emlOI

Includes Gohan's power-up and then his arrival to the battlefield.
This sounds like video game music.
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by ABED » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:14 am

Still just over 9 to be cut from the last 19.
How do you know how many episodes are left?
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by sintzu » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:01 pm

ABED wrote:
Still just over 9 to be cut from the last 19.
How do you know how many episodes are left?
He watches the international version.
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Son_Gohan » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:35 pm

Kid Buu wrote:
AjayLikesGaming wrote:Your wish is my command - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5guE7emlOI

Includes Gohan's power-up and then his arrival to the battlefield.
This sounds like video game music.
Indeed. Power-up scene gave me Keith Courage in Alpha Zones nostalgia vibes. :crazy:

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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by sangofe » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:44 pm

MagicBox wrote:
AjayLikesGaming wrote:Your wish is my command - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5guE7emlOI
I should *not* be thinking "I'd gladly take Faulconer's version over this" while watching Japanese Dragon Ball.

So happy this monstrosity will be ending in a few weeks.
Ugh, I actually preferred that dub myself...

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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by dbzfan7 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:28 am

MagicBox wrote:
AjayLikesGaming wrote:Your wish is my command - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5guE7emlOI
I should *not* be thinking "I'd gladly take Faulconer's version over this" while watching Japanese Dragon Ball.

So happy this monstrosity will be ending in a few weeks.
Pretty much what I was thinking. For once I vastly prefer the original funimation version. I kinda want either a new score for the west, or someone in the west to do better placements. I never thought I'd ever have to say that to the original japanese property, but my KamiKingKaioshin, I support the west tampering with the original product for once.
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Ajay » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:15 pm

Alright, I've created a comparison video of Gohan's power-up and his arrival on the battlefield. It contains all the relevant composers.

We've got Kikuchi, Sumitomo, and the team at Faulconer Productions. I threw in one scene with Takaki's score from Ultimate Tenkaichi since I think it's excellent and demonstrates how to successfully modernise the scene.
As Gohan powers up, Kikuchi's track is uplifting and extremely positive. It's a fun, relatively lighthearted scene that signifies the end of a power-up that was essentially a gag (Old Kaioshin reading/falling asleep during the process). Kikuchi gets this right.

Sumitomo takes a similar approach - it's upbeat and lighthearted. It's not very good music, and the style doesn't lend itself to Dragon Ball, but its placement isn't terrible.

Takaki's attempt is much like Kikuchi's. You can hear the influence there very clearly. In fact, I can hear riffs from Kikuchi pretty clearly in this piece. He takes that sound and makes it a little grander and more heroic. An absolutely fine rendition for the scene. It's a video game, too, so I can give it a pass for being a bit on the sentimental side, also.

Faulconer Production's music is dark, big and very heroic. The tone is entirely misplaced, unfortunately. It's not bad music by itself, but it makes the scene's silly parts feel out of place. This isn't another Super Saiyan transformation on Namek. There's no drama here.

Next, we have our newly powered Gohan approaching the battlefield and walking up to Boo. This scene is all about heroism. It's the arrival of, what we believe at this point, to be the saviour. Huge, awesome, momentous scene.

With Kikuchi, we get a longer version of the famed title music, M1706A. This song has been used to hype up the start of episode upon episode. It's big, it's heroic and, most importantly, it's exciting. It marks the start of something important and that's exactly what this scene needs.

As he touches down, we get some silence to take in the moment before Gohan approaches Boo. We get some music from Movie 11 (A Crucial Confrontation! The Bio Army). It's ominous, slow and builds the scene nicely to the point where Gohan says 'No, I intend to kill you' before it cuts to the eyecatch.

It works absolutely fine. I think something a little tenser would have helped but it's not scene-ruining.

Now, Sumitomo approaches Gohan's battlefield landing very differently. We get a huge, apocalyptic track as Gohan approaches. It entirely changes the tone of the scene. We go from heroic Kikuchi to end-of-the-world Sumitomo. It's too dark for this scene. This is the arrival of the hero, it's the hope the viewer has wanted. This music makes the situation seem dire and, even worse, it continues to play through a bunch of internal dialogue and exposition. There's no pause to take in Piccolo's words about how different Gohan is. There's no silence to build up Gohan's next move as he learns of the atrocities Boo has committed. It only pauses for a second as Gohan acknowledges he can feel the faint ki of his friends.

As Gohan walks towards Boo, we get a fantastic track from Battle of Gods. It's well placed and gives us a huge build-up as he paces slowly towards Boo and then- wait, what?! The scene cuts?!

Yes, Kai cuts away from Gohan the second he reaches Boo. In the original show, he reaches Boo and we get the line "Hey, don't tell me you intend to fight me!" followed by, "No. I intend to kill you". It's a huge, jaw-dropping moment, underpinned by that magnificent build-up. And Kai cuts away from it! We go to Goku in the Kaioshin realm and don't cut back to Gohan delivering that line until the final shot of the episode after a bunch of Goten and Trunks nonsense.

The track from Battle of Gods would have worked wonders for that scene. The editing killed it.

Finally, we have Faulconer Productions! As Gohan arrives, we have a heroic track that totally nails what that moment is going for. The hero is here! He lands and the music drops very low with a slow consistent drum beat. It's a bit wall-to-wall but it works as well as silence in this case.

As he walks towards Boo, the drum beat picks up and pianos begin to play as it builds to the height of the track. It's a great track at that, too. It builds up until Gohan finally says his line. No issues at all other than the usual, 'this music doesn't belong in Dragon Ball' spiel. This time, it works great.

That was kinda long but I wanted to justify what works and what doesn't in the context of all the music used for this scene. Unfortunately, it's very true that even a replacement score from the 90s handled this scene better than Kai. Incredibly saddening that a team without a full understanding of the series could place better music than the company who made the show.

I can't believe I just praised the Faulconer score. What the fuck is happening?!
Last edited by Ajay on Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:57 pm

Good rundown.

I'm have to admit I'm a bit biased towards that particular Faulconer track, as it's by far my favorite in the whole score.

That Kikuchi track where Gohan flies in is my favorite in the Kikuchi score as well. That was a consistently well-done scene until Sumimoto showed up.
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Valerius Dover » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:10 pm

Excellently spoken! Always a delight to see these comparisons! You should do more of these! :clap:

I don't dislike any of the placements here, really, though I do feel Sumitomo placing a battle track during Gohan's arrival is a bit odd. As for his power-up scene, it's pretty clear Team Faulconer was going for a totally different feel, which I think also really works in my opinion.

Another thing I note is the scene cut you describe.....really does sound terrible. I'd have to see it before I judge it fully, but the buildup present in both Z versions is fantastic. Judging by that time counter, they could've done it even better by ending the episode just after Gohan's badass one liner (Which, by the way, I would have no problem with remaining unchanged in The Final Chapters dub).

Sorry to nitpick, but isn't this part of the replacement score from the early 2000s? The Kikuchi scene from 1995, Faulconer from 2002, and Sumitomo from 2015.
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Ajay » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:30 pm

Valerius Dover wrote:Another thing I note is the scene cut you describe.....really does sound terrible. I'd have to see it before I judge it fully, but the buildup present in both Z versions is fantastic. Judging by that time counter, they could've done it even better by ending the episode just after Gohan's badass one liner (Which, by the way, I would have no problem with remaining unchanged in The Final Chapters dub).
Here's the comparison - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B7pBynolO4 - It just goes from build up to Kaioshin realm to Goten & Trunks nonsense back for the line and then a load more nonsense before the episode ends. Feels like such an unnecessary cut. Totally kills the moment.

I'm sure my fast-forwarding lessens the impact but watching it in real time, it's painful.
Sorry to nitpick, but isn't this part of the replacement score from the early 2000s? The Kikuchi scene from 1995, Faulconer from 2002, and Sumitomo from 2015.
I'm not entirely sure what you're nitpicking here. :? Have I misspoke somewhere that I'm not seeing?
Last edited by Ajay on Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Theophrastus » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:51 pm

You called the Faulconer score "a replacement score from the 90s". They're saying that it technically isn't actually from the 90s.

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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Ajay » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:55 pm

Theophrastus wrote:You called the Faulconer score "a replacement score from the 90s". They're saying that it technically isn't actually from the 90s.
Yeah, the episode didn't air until 2002 but when I say 'a replacement score from the 90s', I'm talking about the score in general. His music first appeared in what? 98/99?
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:57 pm

AjayLikesGaming wrote:Yeah, the episode didn't air until 2002 but when I say 'a replacement score from the 90s', I'm talking about the score in general. His music first appeared in what? 98/99?
It was 1999. VHS sometime earlier in the year, Toonami in September.

By that token, Kikuchi's DBZ score began in 1989.
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Re: Kai Episode 141 (08 February 2015)

Post by Ajay » Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:02 pm

What do people generally go by? I don't mind being wrong. I'd just always seen it referenced to as a 90s replacement score.
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