Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
How would you rate him personally. I'd personally say Chaotic Neutral. I don't see him as the type to care if there were human corpses or some evil person was killing people. If anything I'd see him feel it's an excuse to fight someone. I don't see Vegeta as evil anymore, but I don't see him being a community kind of person. He fights only for his family and cause it's fun. I don't see him fighting on behalf of say earthlings cause he cares about them. He would no longer waste them like he did at the Tenkaichi Budokai, but he's not sympathetic towards them either.
You can go with SSJ God ritual if you want to come to that conclusion, but personally I feel that was kind of bullshit. It's still a fair answer since it's official, but BOG got plenty of things wrong so I think questioning Vegeta's morality is fine. I think the Kintoun does a better job testing good and evil over SSJ God . A cloud from a cat hermit apparently one upping a godly ritual .
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
But if I were to try to pinpoint it down, I'd say he flip flops between Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Good. His evil days kinda ended after he killed himself to stop Majin Buu. But doesn't mean he won't cause a ruckus if he's annoyed or if he wants a challenge. I mean he is a Saiyan.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Marco Polo wrote:Although Wrath of the Dragon is not canon, I always thought his depiction in that movie was accurate for post-Boo.
I hate to go off topic but that gif just highlights how great the animation was back in the day when Dragon Ball Z actually had a budget to work with.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Y'all are saying if a villain was running around killing humans, Vegeta wouldn't care about saving them? Gotta disagree heavily.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I swear, the Gohan fanboys won't be happy unless he just bends over and farts all of Freeza's men into the sun.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
Honestly, this would only make me slightly satisfied. To make me happy, he'd also have to grab Freeza by the tail, drag him to the nearest toilet, and give him swirlies until he submits and calls him "daddy."
ZazamPow wrote:Y'all are saying if a villain was running around killing humans, Vegeta wouldn't care about saving them ? Gotta disagree heavily.
If they're where he is he'd help but I doubt he's going to put on a bat suite and go looking for people to help.
Goku doesn't go out looking to help people either.. he goes where the fights are, and all of the time he has to help them after he brings the fight to a bigger level of destruction.
ZazamPow wrote:Y'all are saying if a villain was running around killing humans, Vegeta wouldn't care about saving them? Gotta disagree heavily.
Yep. Vegeta wouldn't say "That bastard is killing innocent people", he'd just care only that the foe might give him a good fight.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Goku doesn't go out looking to help people either.. he goes where the fights are, and all of the time he has to help them after he brings the fight to a bigger level of destruction.
He'd take the fight to a less populated area, and because it's DB, the enemies will follow. Goku shouldn't be blamed for the fights becoming destructive. When the unstoppable force and the immovable object collide, crap is gonna blow up. Vegeta doesn't care where the fight takes place.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
BoG kind of stretched what I thought Vegeta became. I see it as that hes Good but stoic while emotionally triggered. Hes in between Piccolo & Krillin in morality I say. Though BoG made him more Adult-Gohanish.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.
Goku doesn't go out looking to help people either.. he goes where the fights are, and all of the time he has to help them after he brings the fight to a bigger level of destruction.
He'd take the fight to a less populated area, and because it's DB, the enemies will follow. Goku shouldn't be blamed for the fights becoming destructive. When the unstoppable force and the immovable object collide, crap is gonna blow up. Vegeta doesn't care where the fight takes place.
As ABED stated, Goku often takes his fights to deserted areas to minimize casualties. Vegeta would most likely not give a fuck and fight in a populated area if it suited him.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Marco Polo wrote:Although Wrath of the Dragon is not canon, I always thought his depiction in that movie was accurate for post-Boo.
I was just going to post a picture of that, but it was nowhere near as good as that! I thought that was a very accurate portrayal of Vegeta. He finally turned good at the Kid Boo fight. He'd surely fight for other people, but he's not proactive as Gohan and Videl.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Neutral Evil. He's the same as he's always been.
That's the same alignment I'd give to Freeza. I mean Vegeta really isn't evil anymore. He has calmed down immensely. He's just Chaotic, like Goku is. I mean if Vegeta was still evil, he'd still be hell bent on destroying the planet or becoming immortal. But those aren't his goal anymore. His only goal now is just to surpass Goku. That's pretty much it. So to say Vegeta is still "evil" is ridiculous.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Neutral Evil. He's the same as he's always been.
That's the same alignment I'd give to Freeza. I mean Vegeta really isn't evil anymore. He has calmed down immensely. He's just Chaotic, like Goku is. I mean if Vegeta was still evil, he'd still be hell bent on destroying the planet or becoming immortal. But those aren't his goal anymore. His only goal now is just to surpass Goku. That's pretty much it. So to say Vegeta is still "evil" is ridiculous.
No he wouldn't. Being somewhat rational or just bored doesn't mean you're not evil. He still has murdered trillions and put the Earth in danger multiple times, all without any real remorse on his part, and hasn't gone through any actual change. Supposedly caring for a few people, and being rational enough to recognize an extremely easy gig when he sees it, doesn't change any of that. He gets a hot wife, tons of food, free shelter (in a mansion), and special, high-tech training, all at zero cost. It's the same story immediately after the Freeza arc.
Neutral Evil.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
It would be impossible to Vegeta too ever obtain ssj god because it requires one too be completely pure, he loves fighting, he acts like a dick, hes jealous and greedy=not pure
Even Goku is not pure but since this is a Shounen manga and making a main character never fight would be almost impossible on the editor point of view.
Being pure also means disliking to fight or not resorting too violence
And since Goku and Vegeta aren't pacifists. Goku himself gave Cell a senzu bean so he could fight Gohan at his full power, even though Cell killed millions of people and was a universal threat. Goku promotes fighting because for him its an entertainment just like for Master Roshi looking at a magazine full of naked women.
GokuRules987 wrote:It would be impossible to Vegeta too ever obtain ssj god because it requires one too be completely pure, he loves fighting, he acts like a dick, hes jealous and greedy=not pure
Ehhhh.... he can become a SSJ God according to Dende. Plus its a RIGHTEOUS heart.. not pure.
Dende: Vegeta may have been evil a long time ago, but i'm not so sure about now. Is he evil?
Kirllin: Now that you mention it, you're right. He hasn't done anything bad for a good while now.
Vegeta: Stop insulting me! You're saying the great Vegeta-sama has a righteous heart?!
. A cloud from a cat hermit apparently one upping a godly ritual 
