How strong are the Android arc humans?

[flashback0180]

People generally use this to lowball ball the humans. I'm still wondering if that was a inconsistency or that door is really - really tough.

[rereboy]

Its just very tough. #16 was constructed entirely from artificial components, including metallic ones. I'm sure that Dr. Gero could create and use incredibly resistant metallic alloys.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Try to avoid saying people twist things/make excuses or using provocative pontuation when they don't agree with you, please. It is not a good way to express your opinion and it makes you look childish. You can be better than that.

I never said Kuririn can't beat Tenshinhan in the tournament, but there is no way to know until they fight. As for having none indication about Tenshinhan being stronger, I can point a few instances that maybe can lead one to start believing in that.

Nothing concrete, but apparently it's too hard for me to say Kuririn is stronger because he doesn't do anything as impressive as Tenshinhan does sometimes.

And I still don't understand why Gohan, Trunks or Goten can't be classified as Earthlings. They are half Saiyan, half Earthling. I guess I could call them humans too.

It's not a matter of disagreeing with me, but the author.

And do you realize all of those feats are not comparable? He literally wasn't in those situations, so they can't be used as evidence.

[*]Tenshinhan never commented on Kuririn's progress when they fought the cyborgs.

Kuririn didn't comment on Tenshinhan's progress either. And Kuririn should be stronger to begin with, since he got his potential unlocked, and all his weird pseudo-zenkai plot power ups on Namek, Vegeta even complimented his power, which would be very out of character for Vegeta to do if he was still fodder. Tenshinhan is never noted to have any great power ups or ever suggested to have caught-up/get ahead.

[*]Tenshinhan tried to fight No.17 while Kuririn was just paralized.

So Tenshinhan getting owned by 17 and Kuririn watching now cements Ten > Kuririn? That's no comparison at all. The only thing we get from that is Kuririn is the bigger coward, not a comparison of strenght.

[*]Tenshinhan was able to stop Cell with Neo Kikoho.

Oh, you mean he move Kuririn doesn't posses?

[*]Kuririn didn't even offer any significant resistance against Evil Boo when he turned everyone into chocolate, while Tenshinhan was stated to be quite a master.

We didn't see what happened between Kuririn and Buu as it was off panel and within seconds. And not a direct comparison.

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And using the whole "well technically Gohan and Piccolo and 18 are earthlings" is just reaching. I mean you know for a fact that Toriyama's not including them in his quote since we know for a fact they're stronger than Kuririn, and have more pronounced/defining races to them. So yes, that is twisting the author's words.

I still see no indication for Toriyama or Yamcha excluding Tenshinhan from their statements. Obvious reasons for those statements not including Gohan is because that's obviously contradicted by the manga and Gohan is also a saiyan.

[ZazamPow]

I think Yamcha could take Krillin and Tien at the same time with the Wolf Fang Fist.

[In Brightest Day]

I think Yamcha could take Krillin and Tenshinhan at the same time with the Wolf Fang Fist.

'

I know this was a joke, but considering this thread is about the three if them is there any reason why Yamcha couldn't damage Tenshinhan with the Wolf Fang Fist in the Android arc? The gap between the two shouldn't be all that significant.

[FoolsGil]

To be honest, it doesn't really matter, because all the enemies are so strong only a Namekian or Saiyan can do anything. But whatever let's do it like this:

Above Freeza - SSJ Goku, SSJ Vegeta, Super Piccolo, 16, 17, 18

Freeza Final Form Tier (between 1 and 100% power) Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, 19, 20

Freeza Third Form Tier

Freeza Second Form Tier

Freeza First Form Tier

Captain Ginyu Tier

Below Captain Ginyu

And then starting from Freeza Third Form, going down, ask "Could X stand a reasonable chance against this tier?"

I'll go ahead and say that the humans are in the Captain Ginyu Tier. However Tenshinhan's and Krillin's best attacks allow them to work at a higher level.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I don't see why they can't reach the millions. Yamcha was considered a good source of energy who should at the very least be Freeza tier. Kuririn should be a fair amount ahead of Ginyu anyway, Vegeta complimented his power and said it was continually rising.

I have:

Yamcha
~ Full Power: 800,000

Tenshinhan
~ Full Power: 1,200,000

Kuririn
~ Full Power: 4,000,000

[RandomGuy96]

Krillin: 3,600,000
Tenshinhan: 2,500,000
Yamcha: 2,000,000
Chaozu: 1,000,000

I have them there, mostly due to Gero's statements about their energy. I figure that they should have at least SOME effect on his power for them to be worth taking at all. Plus, Krillin and co kept up with sick base Goku's travel speed. In terms of feats and concrete statements, we really have nothing for them. Well, except for all of them being much weaker than base Android arc Vegeta. So, I go by these implications, which are better than nothing. I think.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I forgot Chaozu even existed lol... I'm not sure if I could see him reaching the millions... I'd put him at 40,000 tops... I have a hard time seeing him stomp the likes of 1st form Freeza or even Ginyu..

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Aside from everything mentioned, I don't think there's any other way to assess their power.

When Krillin and Trunks arrive to see Piccolo fighting Cell, he quickly tells them to watch for his tail and says he (Cell) has no chance against them. We see both Trunks and Krillin get into a fighting stance as he says this. Cell agrees with Piccolo and says he'll retreat. Piccolo says they won't let him, and that Cell's pathetic Kamehameha won't help. So yeah, Piccolo and Super Saiyan Trunks are the strongest of the three, but Krillin's still included. I don't know. Maybe Krillin would create a diversion or something.

Instead of sending Tien to find Gero's hidden lab with the others or home to Chaozu, Piccolo wants Tien to help him find Cell. Now again, Piccolo would be the main one fighting Cell, but it's hard to believe he'd expect Tien just to sit there and do nothing. Since Piccolo is stronger than Cell, perhaps that'd give Tien a chance to do something worthwhile in a potential battle. Don't laugh.

I always thought they were less than Captain Ginyu, but I think that's too weak. I see them in the millions now.

[RandomGuy96]

I forgot Chaozu even existed lol... I'm not sure if I could see him reaching the millions... I'd put him at 40,000 tops... I have a hard time seeing him stomp the likes of 1st form Freeza or even Ginyu..

He was exactly one third of Tenshinhan's power in the Saiyan arc. They did the exact same training from there on out, so I see absolutely no reason for the gap to dramatically increase. Normally I'd put him at 833,000, but one million just looks neater.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I dunno. The way Tien talks about Chaozu seems to imply he's really weak. I'd like to think going from 610 to a million in four yrs through pure training would reflect a different opinion than "He wouldn't keep up in this fight."

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

He was exactly one third of Tenshinhan's power in the Saiyan arc. They did the exact same training from there on out, so I see absolutely no reason for the gap to dramatically increase. Normally I'd put him at 833,000, but one million just looks neater.

I'm not saying it's wrong, I was just saying I couldn't personally picture it. I only have Ten @ 1.2m, so I guess 400k is a fine spot for him, for me.

[Hugo Boss]

It's not a matter of disagreeing with me, but the author. And do you realize all of those feats are not comparable? He literally wasn't in those situations, so they can't be used as evidence.

You talk as you were Toriyama himself. I'm disagreeing with you only and I tried to phrase my points in a way different from evidence, since there is none in which favor.

As for replying every single point:

• So you agree they are even. While Kuririn was getting stronger on Namek and being relevant, Tenshinhan was getting stronger on Kaio's planet, but he can't cause an impression if he is stuck in that place.
• I believe hesitance is synonymous of weakness, but I don't think Kuririn is coward, he only knew he couldn't do a thing to help his friends and apologized for that. It's different from refraining yourself when you know you can do relevant stuff.
• I wonder how Kuririn not having Neo Kikoho makes him stronger than Tenshinhan. He has Kienzan. Their skills are part of their strenghts.
• Funny, the absence of a direct comparison is one of your arguments now.
  
  -------
• Honestly, I know nothing, I'm not the one who thought the official material words. And I see no indication that Tenshinhan is included in Yamcha's statement, but there is indication they probably would never count with Tenshinhan again. You are just giving your own explanation to a generical sentence that started with a vague sense. Can you bring the exact context Yamcha uses the term? Is he including every single [Pure?] Earthling in the world or just the ones that appeared on Tenkaichi Budokai (suposedly the World Strongest's Martial Arts Contest)?

So yes, that is twisting the author's words.

I don't understand why moderation still allows this nonsense. I really repudiate that.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

So you agree they are even. While Kuririn was getting stronger on Namek and being relevant, Tenshinhan was getting stronger on Kaio's planet, but he can't cause an impression if he is stuck in that place.

Whatever gains he made are completely ambiguous, and outside sources show they are less than whatever Kuririn made, since official material still places him below Kuririn.

[*] I believe hesitance is synonymous of weakness, but I don't think Kuririn is coward, he only knew he couldn't do a thing to help his friends and apologized for that. It's different from refraining yourself when you know you can do relevant stuff.

Kuririn saw a super saiyan being beat up by 18, so obviously he knows he won't be of help. It's not a comparison of strenght.

[*] I wonder how Kuririn not having Neo Kikoho makes him stronger than Tenshinhan. He has Kienzan. Their skills are part of their strenghts.

I'm not talking about moves, I'm talking about battle power. Devilman has the Devilmite beam, which can kill Freeza, is Devilman now stronger than Freeza? It's just a super haxed move. I'm not denying that Tenshinhan could kill Kuririn, but in terms of battle power, everything says Kuririn is stronger

[*] Funny, the absence of a direct comparison is one of your arguments now.

Except this is completely different. The statements made about Kuririn are referring to the same group as Tenshinhan, both are classified as Earthlings. Super Buu does not directly compare Tenshinhan to Kuririn or use mention a group like earthling. It's just a general statement.

The Earthling martial artists that came to fight alongside Goku throughout the long story. There are those who challenge their limits, those who fight for honor, and the like.

Earthlings largely divided into three varieties: human, animal, and monster. There exist sharp-minded people, people who have unique attacks, people with distinctive abilities, and the like.

Human-type Earthling: The most numerous kind of Earthling, the general human type. They mostly have no unique powers, but there are also some who have acquired exceptional abilities. There are those like Bulma and Dr. Brief who possess brilliant intelligence, those like Yajirobe who have great battle potential, those like Uranai Baba who have mysterious powers, and the like.

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I see no indication that Tenshinhan is included in Yamcha's statement

Because he said Kuririn is the strongest earthling, and Tenshinhan is only an earthling, at least in Yamcha's mind, since we're never given an indication in the manga that they believe him to be something else.

but there is indication they probably would never count with Tenshinhan again

Tenshinhan only said he wouldn't see them again, he didn't say "We probably won't meet again, I also revoke my position as being an earthling

You are just giving your own explanation to a generical sentence that started with a vague sense. Can you bring the exact context Yamcha uses the term? Is he including every single [Pure?] Earthling in the world or just the ones that appeared on Tenkaichi Budokai (ironically the World Strongest's Martial Arts Contest)?

Spoiler:

VIZ makes it even clearer by saying human. The comment is too himself, and shows no indication of excluding anyone.

[Stonefallow]

I have them at between 200,000 and 500,000. (And that is still a very high estimate in my opinion) I think having their powers too high cheapens the idea of power levels and makes them even more ridiculous than they already are. It's supposed to be rare for someone to have a power level of over a few thousand. There's really nothing within the story to justify them getting into the millions, especially considering they never trained with the Saiyans and the highest form of training they got to was from Kaio.

For Goku and Vegeta it made sense. They were using gravity training and were abusing their zenkais. Piccolo had his fusions, and sparred with SSJ Goku for 3 years. Gohan had his hidden rage power thing which was kind of an asspull but at least it provided some sort of justification for his high power level. But the humans really don't have anything going for them. I'm not a big fan of "Goten and Trunksing" everyone just to make them relevant again. I need at least some minute basis for accepting that, even if its another God ritual.

[In Brightest Day]

I dunno. The way Tenshinhan talks about Chaozu seems to imply he's really weak. I'd like to think going from 610 to a million in four yrs through pure training would reflect a different opinion than "He wouldn't keep up in this fight."

I have to agree here. Chaozu generally was always lower than the others on the totem pole, and my interpretation of Tenshinhan leaving him at home is that he's fallen a little too far behind. I'd place him somewhere around 1st form Freeza, whereas the "Big 3" have made it into the low millions.

[Hugo Boss]

post

• In this case I'm trying to avoid outside sources, like Daizenshuu or interviews, because I don't own them, but they are welcome when requested or if you find something relevant. So when you point a official word on the subject, provide context, please. Be as objective and simple as possible. (Where is Tenshinhan classification?)
• Tenshinhan suposedly is in the same position, but still he jumped in. Maybe their main difference is attitude, which is a +1 in favor of Tenshinhan in my book.
• Ok, I will step back on the skills subject. I will try to discuss hand-to-hand combat for now.
• I can't see the diference. A direct comparison is just the kind of evidence I commonly see. A general statement like that I can't really tell as proof of anything. Vegeta also says he is the strongest Saiyan when he has Goku ahead. Can't Yamcha say Kuririn is the strongest Pure Earthling with Tenshinhan being absent?
• I don't argue with Yamcha being weaker, because he apparently didn't even prepare himself, despite watching the tournament. But Tenshinhan isn't there to defend his position. You either have to prove Yamcha is right about Kuririn being stronger than Tenshinhan. I guess he is right about the Earthlings present in the island.
• Think about it. If they probably didn't see Tenshinhan for the last seven years why they would count with him for anything. They don't even know how to find him or if he is still alive, which is odd.
• In the light of the past point, I don't think Tenshinhan has to be included in that sentence.

Instead of sending Tenshinhan to find Gero's hidden lab with the others or home to Chaozu, Piccolo wants Tenshinhan to help him find Cell. Now again, Piccolo would be the main one fighting Cell, but it's hard to believe he'd expect Tenshinhan just to sit there and do nothing. Since Piccolo is stronger than Cell, perhaps that'd give Tenshinhan a chance to do something worthwhile in a potential battle. Don't laugh.

I let this past my eyes. Why not choosing Kuririn instead of Tenshinhan then?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

We'll have to agree to disagree here, I personally don't see a reason for Tenshinhan to be excluded in any of these statements / interviews since nothing suggests any Earthlings were left out, and since I believe Toriyama sees Tenshinhan as an earthling, since he has his characters call Tenshinhan an Earthling. I do want to add one thing in:

You either have to prove Yamcha is right about Kuririn being stronger than Tenshinhan.

The statement is there for a reason. Statements are a way for authors to speak through their characters. An author wouldn't feed us false information or make his character lie for it to never be revealed. If Toriyama didn't truly believe that Kuririn was the strongest earthling or wanted us to believe Tenshinhan was excluded from that statement, he would.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't have any problem with Toriyama deciding Kuririn should be the strongest Pure Earthling in interviews or alike. But the story itself makes that implication pretty odd if it includes Tenshinhan as well, that's my impression.

As for the last point, characters can be wrong without the intent to provide false information. That's why I assume a strict position to decide what I understand as evidence. Yamcha didn't see Tenshinhan for seven years, that would be an unfair statement if he intended to include him. But supposing Yamcha was referring to anything in the Cell Arc, with what basis he concluded Kuririn was stronger than Tenshinhan?