What if Kid Buu had won the final battle (consequences?)

[Aoi]

To Hitiro (I can't make the quoting work for some reason)

Honestly man, with "should of"/"could of" types of arguments that's where I pretty much draw the line. At this point, anyone could 'fan-wank' anything to help fit their theories. I saw the episode 2 days ago: the narrator (in Japanese) clearly says there's no more Potaras. And as for Vegetto's transformation taking a few extra nano-seconds...that's just for dramatic effect (if not, I'll "retcon" it myself lol). The Potaras work instantly.

I feel 100% satisfied with my answer to this. And thanks for you, and everyone for providing uploads and opinions. I think I'm good with this.

Peace ya'll.

I highly doubt the narrator said there are no more Potara's. Because narrators don't talk like that. They'd say something like "The Saiyan's take on Boo without Potara's?! How will this go down?!". And not once do the characters ever imply that they broke the last of the Potara's. I mean you're honestly just changing things to suit your theory that their are only 2 sets and the third are destroyed. It's fine to have an opinion. But you can't just say that the valid opinion of "there are 3 sets" isn't acceptable when it follows all of the conventions shown. Kaioshin and Kibito aren't shown holding them. The fusion also took seconds. You're assuming way too much to justify your own view point without looking at what we can actually see. I really don't recall the characters ever been able to have a conversation in nano seconds either. It's better to look at this with Ockham's razor. The theory with the least amount of assumptions is probably the correct one.

Just to put my 2 cents. I do remember the narrator saying something to the extent of: "And now without ever being able to fuse again, how will they fare against..." etc etc. They make it clear.

But....I don't really see the point in discussing something that even the animators didn't even give much thought to. It's obvious that if the extra potaras weren't meant to survive, or else they would have been shown falling to the ground. But they didn't. They probably just forgot. And that's as far as it goes. It's obvious they never meant for the extra potaras to have been relevant. Or else they would have mentioned them. I'll just go with the idea someone mentioned that they had them in their pockets or something. It's clear that they weren't meant to survive.

HAVING SAID THAT, if you're in denial and prefer to have a 3rd pair in your imagination, then ...ok...just pretend in your mind that they just fell to the ground and the camera just happened to never show them again.

[singsing]

To Hitiro (I can't make the quoting work for some reason)

Honestly man, with "should of"/"could of" types of arguments that's where I pretty much draw the line. At this point, anyone could 'fan-wank' anything to help fit their theories. I saw the episode 2 days ago: the narrator (in Japanese) clearly says there's no more Potaras. And as for Vegetto's transformation taking a few extra nano-seconds...that's just for dramatic effect (if not, I'll "retcon" it myself lol). The Potaras work instantly.

I feel 100% satisfied with my answer to this. And thanks for you, and everyone for providing uploads and opinions. I think I'm good with this.

Peace ya'll.

I highly doubt the narrator said there are no more Potara's. Because narrators don't talk like that. They'd say something like "The Saiyan's take on Boo without Potara's?! How will this go down?!". And not once do the characters ever imply that they broke the last of the Potara's. I mean you're honestly just changing things to suit your theory that their are only 2 sets and the third are destroyed. It's fine to have an opinion. But you can't just say that the valid opinion of "there are 3 sets" isn't acceptable when it follows all of the conventions shown. Kaioshin and Kibito aren't shown holding them. The fusion also took seconds. You're assuming way too much to justify your own view point without looking at what we can actually see. I really don't recall the characters ever been able to have a conversation in nano seconds either. It's better to look at this with Ockham's razor. The theory with the least amount of assumptions is probably the correct one.

Just to put my 2 cents. I do remember the narrator saying something to the extent of: "And now without ever being able to fuse again, how will they fare against..." etc etc. They make it clear.

But....I don't really see the point in discussing something that even the animators didn't even give much thought to. It's obvious that if the extra potaras weren't meant to survive, or else they would have been shown falling to the ground. But they didn't. They probably just forgot. And that's as far as it goes. It's obvious they never meant for the extra potaras to have been relevant. Or else they would have mentioned them. I'll just go with the idea someone mentioned that they had them in their pockets or something. It's clear that they weren't meant to survive.

HAVING SAID THAT, if you're in denial and prefer to have a 3rd pair in your imagination, then ...ok...just pretend in your mind that they just fell to the ground and the camera just happened to never show them again.

So you're objectively correct and everyone else with a different opinion is in denial... how?

Either way, narrator =/= manga writing.

[Hitiro]

Just to put my 2 cents. I do remember the narrator saying something to the extent of: "And now without ever being able to fuse again, how will they fare against..." etc etc. They make it clear.

But....I don't really see the point in discussing something that even the animators didn't even give much thought to. It's obvious that if the extra potaras weren't meant to survive, or else they would have been shown falling to the ground. But they didn't. They probably just forgot. And that's as far as it goes. It's obvious they never meant for the extra potaras to have been relevant. Or else they would have mentioned them. I'll just go with the idea someone mentioned that they had them in their pockets or something. It's clear that they weren't meant to survive.

HAVING SAID THAT, if you're in denial and prefer to have a 3rd pair in your imagination, then ...ok...just pretend in your mind that they just fell to the ground and the camera just happened to never show them again.

Just to say. I checked the episode myself. Episode 278. And what is actually said by the Narrator is this "Having tossed the potara aside, will Goku and Vegeta be able to defeat Boo without merging together?" Nowhere does it say about them never being able to fuse again.

If you check the manga as well the hand that Kibito used to take off the Potara earring doesn't have a earring in either. So it's not like the animators just make that bit up. And honestly, I find it offensive that you say I'm in denial when all of my statements have been pretty much spot on. They weren't things I just randomly fished out like the whole "fusion happens instantaneously in story and Goku and Vegeta talking before they fused happened in nano seconds." If you're going to go as far as to say I'm in denial maybe I should consider that you are? Because you pretty much changed what the Narrator actually said to suit your opinion. But I'm just giving you the benefit of the doubt here and assuming that it has been a while since you watched the episode so you don't clearly remember what was said.

I honestly didn't know the line until I searched it out myself. I was originally apprehensive because the way foxfang4 worded it wouldn't have made sense so either he remembered wrong or he made up the line. I also gave him the benefit of the doubt and considered he just didn't know the line but was assuming it was worded along those lines rather than a bold faced lie.

[foxfang4]

Just to put my 2 cents. I do remember the narrator saying something to the extent of: "And now without ever being able to fuse again, how will they fare against..." etc etc. They make it clear.

But....I don't really see the point in discussing something that even the animators didn't even give much thought to. It's obvious that if the extra potaras weren't meant to survive, or else they would have been shown falling to the ground. But they didn't. They probably just forgot. And that's as far as it goes. It's obvious they never meant for the extra potaras to have been relevant. Or else they would have mentioned them. I'll just go with the idea someone mentioned that they had them in their pockets or something. It's clear that they weren't meant to survive.

HAVING SAID THAT, if you're in denial and prefer to have a 3rd pair in your imagination, then ...ok...just pretend in your mind that they just fell to the ground and the camera just happened to never show them again.

Just to say. I checked the episode myself. Episode 278. And what is actually said by the Narrator is this "Having tossed the potara aside, will Goku and Vegeta be able to defeat Boo without merging together?" Nowhere does it say about them never being able to fuse again.

If you check the manga as well the hand that Kibito used to take off the Potara earring doesn't have a earring in either. So it's not like the animators just make that bit up. And honestly, I find it offensive that you say I'm in denial when all of my statements have been pretty much spot on. They weren't things I just randomly fished out like the whole "fusion happens instantaneously in story and Goku and Vegeta talking before they fused happened in nano seconds." If you're going to go as far as to say I'm in denial maybe I should consider that you are? Because you pretty much changed what the Narrator actually said to suit your opinion. But I'm just giving you the benefit of the doubt here and assuming that it has been a while since you watched the episode so you don't clearly remember what was said.

I honestly didn't know the line until I searched it out myself. I was originally apprehensive because the way foxfang4 worded it wouldn't have made sense so either he remembered wrong or he made up the line. I also gave him the benefit of the doubt and considered he just didn't know the line but was assuming it was worded along those lines rather than a bold faced lie.

Hmm, I don't know man.





Faces= outright panic. Moreover, in the manga, they're shocked when Kid Buu appears. They actually think they have a lot of time between now and the next battle. This is not the face someone would make if they had a backup of Potaras right around the corner.

Or else, either Kaioshin or Old Kaioshin would have immediately said:

a)Kaioshin: "Thank goodness those weren't the last ones. About 10 meters from here are the earrings Kibito and I dropped when we did our fusion".
or
b) Old Kai: "Ah don't worry, I'll just go "poof" and make new ones right away in case they start losing."

Instead, you have the exact reaction someone would make if the 1 artifact that would guarantee victory was destroyed for good. Are you seriously implying that the Kaioshins just said: "Ah...I'm too lazy to pick those up. Leave them on the ground man. It's all good"? Why didn't the old Kaioshin put them on? (I'm sure they would have been very useful, especially in a dire situation like this one).

[foxfang4]

Now, I see that you really like to go into detail with the images. Especially with the manga right? So, ok. I'll go with your flow and I'll present the definitive piece of evidence:


As you can see, Kibito's right hand is blocked by Kaioshin. Thus, the final (and only) piece of evidence that could have suggested that they just dropped them= useless. So, anyone could really argue it 1 way or another.

But, using narrative logic, and the fact that a) the theoretical "3rd pair" are never mentioned again, and b) that the 2 providers of these artifacts (as well as the narrative itself) consistently imply through their actions like there are no more in existence, I can sleep easy feeling that it's highly probable that there are no more Potaras.

Like Aio wrote, it's basically up to whatever you want to believe. But, IMO, it makes 0 sense for there to be more Potaras. The characters don't even act like there are any more. Just saying. And I can't add more to this. The evidence just doesn't exist.

Peace out.

[Kaboom]

HAVING SAID THAT, if you're in denial and prefer to have a 3rd pair in your imagination, then ...ok...just pretend in your mind that they just fell to the ground and the camera just happened to never show them again.

Come on, we really don't need to let this type of attitude develop.

[Tectorman]

Fact: There were three pairs of earrings originally.
Fact: We see two pairs deliberately shown to be destroyed.
Fact: We know that regular clothes and other possessions become fused/lost/rearranged during the fusion (i.e., Vegetto appeared with a mix of Goku and Vegeta's clothes).
Fact: We know that Potara are not subject to that effect. The Elder Kai's earrings were used to fuse himself and the Witch from long ago, and he still presented them to Goku to use. Nor is how long ago they were last used a factor, as Kibitokai did the same thing a short while later.

Could the third set have been deliberately held back, solely to keep them safe from the Saiyans' impulsiveness? Sure. The Kais' expressions of dismay fit a sense of horror, but they also fit a sense of disbelief when faced with overwhelming stupid.

Could the third set have been dropped and forgotten by everyone present and not recovered until later? Sure. Those things get lost easily (see Gohan losing one in rubble). That makes them still survive, but be unavailable for the current fight.

Could the third set have been destroyed in the process of Kibito and the Supreme Kai fusing? Seems to be in violation of the third fact I listed (but maybe only worn Potara survive the fusion). So unlikely, but still possible.

Any of these could be the explanation. And without Battle of Gods, it wouldn't really matter so much.

But Toriyama established that Beers outclassed every manga character. That includes SSJ Vegetto. And BoG includes a line where Goku mulls over fusing with Vegeta and then dismisses it as insufficient.

So either Toriyama wanted to establish Beers>SSJ Vegetto, but the movie itself only establishes Beers>SSJ Gogeta.

Or Toriyama wanted to establish Beers>SSJ Vegetto, and the whole purpose of including Goku wondering about the viability of fusion was to express that fact.

Occam's Razor says it's likely the latter. Maybe the Kais foresaw a need for the third set to remain intact, so they were held back. Maybe they were lost during Kibitokai's fusion, only to be found later. Maybe the lack of any established grisly fate for the third set is a happy accident on Toriyama's part, or maybe it was deliberate.

Or maybe you're indeed correct. The third set was destroyed, and the Kais just made a new pair in between the Buu Saga and BoG.

But I'm fairly sure we're supposed to take Goku's line as being in reference to Vegetto, not Gogeta. And for that to have any meaning, Vegetto has to be canonically possible. Therefore, he still is.

[mAcChaos]

Fact: We know that Potara are not subject to that effect. The Elder Kai's earrings were used to fuse himself and the Witch from long ago, and he still presented them to Goku to use. Nor is how long ago they were last used a factor, as Kibitokai did the same thing a short while later.

This is the weak point of your argument. We don't know that the same Potara survived; it might just be that the fusion created a new set of Potara for the fused being, just like it creates clothes, because the Elder Kai was the dominant being in the fusion and so it had more of his characteristics.

[Saiga]

I actually wonder, if those spare potara were put in their clothes for safe-keeping, would they then be fused into a single potara? The clothes seem to fuse, it'd be hilarious if they thought "ah, we should still have another set!" and can only fish out the single fused potara.

[Hitiro]

You realise this image is after Goku refused to use the Potara's. He didn't destroy them. And considering this reaction is pretty much the same as the latter. It doesn't have to mean that it was the potara they were concerned about. But the fact that these two Saiyan's want to fight without the use of the fusion.

Considering the above reaction had nothing to do with the Potara but just Goku refusing to use them I don't think this reaction holds much weight.

Faces= outright panic. Moreover, in the manga, they're shocked when Kid Buu appears. They actually think they have a lot of time between now and the next battle. This is not the face someone would make if they had a backup of Potaras right around the corner.

You say this but the face I commented on above has nothing to do with them breaking the Potara yet they are just as shocked as the second image I commented on that has Vegeta breaking the Potara he has. So I don't really see why them being shocked when Pure Boo appears has anything to do with a second lot of Potara. Even giving that, you also have to consider that even if they had another pair they are still going to be equally shocked because they might not be able to give them to Goku and Vegeta for them to put them on without Boo a) Destroying the planet. b) Killing them while they fidget to put them on.

Instead, you have the exact reaction someone would make if the 1 artifact that would guarantee victory was destroyed for good. Are you seriously implying that the Kaioshins just said: "Ah...I'm too lazy to pick those up. Leave them on the ground man. It's all good"? Why didn't the old Kaioshin put them on? (I'm sure they would have been very useful, especially in a dire situation like this one).

They have the exact same reaction when it wasn't broke as when it was. So this is a moot point really.

Now, I see that you really like to go into detail with the images. Especially with the manga right? So, ok. I'll go with your flow and I'll present the definitive piece of evidence:


As you can see, Kibito's right hand is blocked by Kaioshin. Thus, the final (and only) piece of evidence that could have suggested that they just dropped them= useless. So, anyone could really argue it 1 way or another.

Except that the hand we visibly see when they are fusing for Kibito is actually the hand he used to take the earring off. So how exactly would it be in the other hand magically?

But, using narrative logic, and the fact that a) the theoretical "3rd pair" are never mentioned again, and b) that the 2 providers of these artifacts (as well as the narrative itself) consistently imply through their actions like there are no more in existence, I can sleep easy feeling that it's highly probable that there are no more Potaras.

You say this. But considering their initial reaction to Goku refusing to use the Potara was exactly the same as the Potara being destroyed. You can't really say that their actions imply that the Potara was destroyed. If you're going to say that then their initial faces when Goku refuses to use them must imply that Goku destroyed the earring he was holding in his hand too. When we have visual evidence that isn't so. I mean if you also check this image they are just as surprised that the first set was destroyed.

Spoiler:

Like Aio wrote, it's basically up to whatever you want to believe. But, IMO, it makes 0 sense for there to be more Potaras. The characters don't even act like there are any more. Just saying. And I can't add more to this. The evidence just doesn't exist.

But it makes sense for you that they act like the last Potara's have been destroyed despite them not being destroyed? Because as I pointed out above their faces from the first Potara set being destroyed and their faces when Goku refuses to use them seem to suggest that there are no Potara's left if we go by your logic. Whereas if we go by the logic that they were just surprised that they wouldn't be using them and surprised that Vegeta destroyed another one but there is still another set then it makes perfect sense in my opinion.

[foxfang4]

Fact: We know that Potara are not subject to that effect. The Elder Kai's earrings were used to fuse himself and the Witch from long ago, and he still presented them to Goku to use. Nor is how long ago they were last used a factor, as Kibitokai did the same thing a short while later.

This is the weak point of your argument. We don't know that the same Potara survived; it might just be that the fusion created a new set of Potara for the fused being, just like it creates clothes, because the Elder Kai was the dominant being in the fusion and so it had more of his characteristics.

Yeah that's exactly what I thought when reading mAcChaos's post. Everything else is spot on (and thanks for going in such detail. Cleared up a few things for me.) Also, the Old Kaioshin fused with the witch with only 1 pair existing. Kibito + Kaioshin fused with 2 pairs, and only 1 came out in the aftermath.

And, Hitiro, you put a hell of a lot of effort and detail into your side of things. But, I feel like every single argument your make is circumstantial ("well, this could have happened, right?"). Going with your flow, I could make the same exact argument. Hell, I did the "take off earring motion" myself, and found I could easily hold the earring with either hand as soon as I took it off.

I think I'm 100% convinced now. So now I can comfortably say: I rest my case. I feel like I provided actual evidence (Fact: there is not 1 piece of dialogue, or any indication of the 3rd set surviving). There were 3 earrings. And, it's definitely possible (and IMO it's 99% probable) that all 3 were destroyed.

PS. Last thing, Hitiro, Goku and Vegeta clearly crush the potaras in the manga. I just don't feel like finding those screen caps again .
Peace ya'll.

[Hitiro]

And, Hitiro, you put a hell of a lot of effort and detail into your side of things. But, I feel like every single argument your make is circumstantial ("well, this could have happened, right?"). Going with your flow, I could make the same exact argument. Hell, I did the "take off earring motion" myself, and found I could easily hold the earring with either hand as soon as I took it off.

Sorry. But my arguments aren't circumstantial. They're based on facts. I mean your argument was literally "Well they make those faces. So they must be the last Potara." Yet they make these faces even when they aren't the last Potara's. I've done the motion and it really only makes sense for the hand taking it off because the other one is doing the un-clipping action.

I think I'm 100% convinced now. So now I can comfortably say: I rest my case. I feel like I provided actual evidence (Fact: there is not 1 piece of dialogue, or any indication of the 3rd set surviving). There were 3 earrings. And, it's definitely possible (and IMO it's 99% probable) that all 3 were destroyed.

Okay then. Fact: There is not 1 piece of dialogue or any indication that the 3rd set didn't survive. You see how easy it is to change that statement? Do they say the other set was destroyed? No. They don't. Lack of evidence isn't evidence in any case. Do they make an indication that the 3rd set was destroyed? Not really because as I proved in my last comment the Kaioshin and Rou Kaioshin both react the same way when the Potara's aren't destroyed and when the Potara's aren't the only set left being destroyed.

PS. Last thing, Hitiro, Goku and Vegeta clearly crush the potaras in the manga. I just don't feel like finding those screen caps again .
Peace ya'll.

Spoiler:

No, only Vegeta crushes the second Potara earring. As you can plainly see Goku just tells them that they won't use them. To which they get these expressions. Unless you're going to tell me that it happened off-screen? In which case, where is the crunching sound effect next to their reaction? And that would also make your evidence circumstantial. But if you really want to go down this route. Then if Goku had crushed the Potara's here then why would they be shocked when Vegeta does it? Because the Potara would already be useless before Vegeta crushed his due to Goku already crushing his. Furthermore the Rou Kaioshin still talks as if Goku has it before Vegeta breaks his.

[Kamiccolo9]

I think I'm 100% convinced now. So now I can comfortably say: I rest my case.

You have no case. You're just saying "they're gone because I say so."

[Tectorman]

Fact: We know that Potara are not subject to that effect. The Elder Kai's earrings were used to fuse himself and the Witch from long ago, and he still presented them to Goku to use. Nor is how long ago they were last used a factor, as Kibitokai did the same thing a short while later.

This is the weak point of your argument. We don't know that the same Potara survived; it might just be that the fusion created a new set of Potara for the fused being, just like it creates clothes, because the Elder Kai was the dominant being in the fusion and so it had more of his characteristics.

That's actually not a problem.

As far as I can tell, this whole side conversation began with this post:

You guys do realize that the last 2 Potara Earrings in existance (worn by the Supreme Kai/Kibito fusion) were destroyed by Goku and Vegeta in Episode 278? Goku and Vegeta crush them in front of the Old Kaioshin and Supreme Kai when they receive them. There's no way Vegetto could ever exist again at this point.

Two assertions: 1) There is no third set of Potara earrings, and 2) Vegetto can no longer exist.

As I said above, Toriyama wanted to establish Beers>any manga character (including SSJ Vegetto). Hence, Goku's line that even fusing wouldn't work.

That covers the out-of-universe purpose for that line, but it still has to have an in-universe reason for existing, too. Which means Goku cannot be considering it as a possibility unless it is, in fact, a possibility.

He did, so it is. It doesn't matter the mental hoops you have to jump through, as long as you arrive at that conclusion.

Were the Potara knowingly and deliberately held back by the Kais, especially after they saw how gleefully the Saiyans had crushed the second set? Yes. That is a possibility.

Were they dropped, lost, forgotten, and then later recovered? Yes. Also a possibility.

Were they lost as clothing accessories in a fusion? Yes. Also a possibility, but one that requires the caveat that another set be created between the Buu Saga and BoG (or, as I said, Goku's line has no reason to exist).

Any of these could be true, but the reason there's such pushback against the version of events where the third set is considered destroyed and then replaced is because it's the narrative equivalent of reaching around your elbow to get to your thumb.

"The third set was destroyed, but another set gets made anyway. Why not just have the third set survive, if it gives the same result, anyway? Because reasons."

[Saiga]

Or the Kaioshin can just magic up a set at any time and Goku was aware of this.

[Friezacooler]

First thing Kid Buu should do is absorb King Kai or Piccolo or elder Kai and then go to Kibito Kai take the fusion ear rings knock out Goten and trunks or Gohan and make them fuse. And absorb them while they K.O.