Toriyama and the Super Saiyan multiplier

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Can someone link me to the interview where Toriyama says it was a 50x boost when he wanted a 10x boost? I can't find it. Thanks.

[Hitiro]

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... agon-ball/

[Darkprince410]

Can someone link me to the interview where Toriyama says it was a 50x boost when he wanted a 10x boost? I can't find it. Thanks.

And the thing to note is that he didn't say just 10x, but 10x from what it was up to that point, which very well could include his use of the Kaiou-ken since the wording is so vague.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And the thing to note is that he didn't say just 10x, but 10x from what it was up to that point, which very well could include his use of the Kaiou-ken since the wording is so vague.

That's impossible. Toriyama said that he imagined it as a x10 because x50 sounds like it's too much, but the guidebooks (including the guide that has this interview & a very specific section about the SS multipliers that was specifically supervised by Toriyama) use the x50 boost for his base form, not his Kaio-ken x20 state. You are saying that Toriyama had a x200 multiplier because x50 sounded like it was too much...

[Kaboom]

Yeah, I doubt Toriyama was trying to say, "I specifically pictured it as 10x, not 50x," as if he's trying to lay down something concrete and factual. Especially since the 50x official boost was re-printed in the same book series as that interview. If he was actually against or wanted to overwrite the 50x boost, I don't think the books would keep repeating it, much less add to it with the SS2 and SS3 boosts.

It seems to me like all he meant is, "50x is a really big number that's hard to picture in my head, and it felt more like 10x to me."

[dario03]

Yeah, I doubt Toriyama was trying to say, "I specifically pictured it as 10x, not 50x," as if he's trying to lay down something concrete and factual. Especially since the 50x official boost was re-printed in the same book series as that interview. If he was actually against or wanted to overwrite the 50x boost, I don't think the books would keep repeating it, much less add to it with the SS2 and SS3 boosts.

It seems to me like all he meant is, "50x is a really big number that's hard to picture in my head, and it felt more like 10x to me."

I agree. And maybe he would of preferred 10x but I don't think he is actually saying that he is changing it to 10x. Maybe if there wasn't KK10 or KK20 he would of but since there is it wouldn't make sense. Though personally I would of preferred it because I agree 50x is just a really big number and I've never been a big fan of KK especially the big number KKs.

[Hitiro]

And the thing to note is that he didn't say just 10x, but 10x from what it was up to that point, which very well could include his use of the Kaiou-ken since the wording is so vague.

That's impossible. Toriyama said that he imagined it as a x10 because x50 sounds like it's too much, but the guidebooks (including the guide that has this interview & a very specific section about the SS multipliers that was specifically supervised by Toriyama) use the x50 boost for his base form, not his Kaio-ken x20 state. You are saying that Toriyama had a x200 multiplier because x50 sounded like it was too much...

The exact words he uses are: 10x stronger than he could be to that point.

For Japanese readers:

中略

ただ当時、スーパーサイヤ人になると、約５０倍の強さとされていたんですが、ちょっと大袈裟でしたね。作者の気持ちとしては、今までの１０倍ぐらいの変化、という感じで描いていたと思います。

According to the translation it was that Toriyama drew it with 10x what it could be to that point. Not what it was. I feel like this is implying the Kaioken but I'm not too sure. Like Goku "could" be at 60 million with the Kaioken x20 at that point. Rather than Goku "was" at 3 million at that point.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And the thing to note is that he didn't say just 10x, but 10x from what it was up to that point, which very well could include his use of the Kaiou-ken since the wording is so vague.

That's impossible. Toriyama said that he imagined it as a x10 because x50 sounds like it's too much, but the guidebooks (including the guide that has this interview & a very specific section about the SS multipliers that was specifically supervised by Toriyama) use the x50 boost for his base form, not his Kaio-ken x20 state. You are saying that Toriyama had a x200 multiplier because x50 sounded like it was too much...

The exact words he uses are: 10x stronger than he could be to that point.

For Japanese readers:

中略

ただ当時、スーパーサイヤ人になると、約５０倍の強さとされていたんですが、ちょっと大袈裟でしたね。作者の気持ちとしては、今までの１０倍ぐらいの変化、という感じで描いていたと思います。

According to the translation it was that Toriyama drew it with 10x what it could be to that point. Not what it was. I feel like this is implying the Kaioken but I'm not too sure. Like Goku "could" be at 60 million with the Kaioken x20 at that point. Rather than Goku "was" at 3 million at that point.

Kaio-ken isn't part of Goku's normal power, it's a temporary boost. Saying that Toriyama thought of SS as a x10 boost on top of KKx20 would only make sense if the guidebooks had the SS as a x50 boost on top of KKx20 as well, but this isn't the case. Which makes it completely illogical, because Toriyama says that he had the x10 in his mind because x50 sounds too big. Meaning that, by the logic that "it's too vague", Toriyama had a x200 boost because x50 sounds too big. Which makes zero sense no matter how you look at it...

[Hitiro]

Kaio-ken isn't part of Goku's normal power, it's a temporary boost. Saying that Toriyama thought of SS as a x10 boost on top of KKx20 would only make sense if the guidebooks had the SS as a x50 boost on top of KKx20 as well, but this isn't the case. Which makes it completely illogical, because Toriyama says that he had the x10 in his mind because x50 sounds too big. Meaning that, by the logic that "it's too vague", Toriyama had a x200 boost because x50 sounds too big. Which makes zero sense no matter how you look at it...

Except it would make sense if Toriyama thought x50 is too big if he was thinking it was 50x on top of the already 20x by Kaioken which he may have even forgotten about anyway.. You realise it had been almost 20 years since he made the chapters when he did this interview. He could have forgotten about Kaioken but remembers how strong Goku was against Freeza.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Except it would make sense if Toriyama thought x50 is too big if he was thinking it was 50x on top of the already 20x by Kaioken which he may have even forgotten about anyway.. You realise it had been almost 20 years since he made the chapters when he did this interview. He could have forgotten about Kaioken but remembers how strong Goku was against Freeza.

But the section he supervised in the same guidebook that has this interview clearly says that the multiplier is base x50, so "Toriyama forgot" isn't an excuse.

[Hitiro]

Except it would make sense if Toriyama thought x50 is too big if he was thinking it was 50x on top of the already 20x by Kaioken which he may have even forgotten about anyway.. You realise it had been almost 20 years since he made the chapters when he did this interview. He could have forgotten about Kaioken but remembers how strong Goku was against Freeza.

But the section he supervised in the same guidebook that has this interview clearly says that the multiplier is base x50, so "Toriyama forgot" isn't an excuse.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm saying Toriyama forgot that Goku had Kaioken but remembered that Goku could be that strong. Hence Toriyama thought Kaioken x20 was Base Goku.

[Dayspring]

I read Toriyama's statement to mean one of four possibilities:

1) He envisioned SSJ as a 10x multiplier, but had already plotted/wrote out that Freeza was 2x stronger than Kaioken x20. Therefore, it was assumed by Assistant-kun, the editor and the reader that it was a 50x multiplier because it simply needed to be something greater than 40x at the time of its introduction.

2) It was equal to (Goku's base x 10) stronger than whatever Freeza's max strength is. The 50x multiplier was just a coincidence, therefore.

3) Toriyama considers Kaioken x10 to be Goku's true strength, since that's the level of Kaioken he's mastered and can whip out at will. So his BP would be 300,000,000 since Toriyama viewed Kaioken x10 and base Goku to be interchangeable by virtue of the Kaioken mastery.

4) Goku's BP dropped considerably from the fight plus Kaioken x20. Freeza's also dropped considerably from the Genkidama. SSJ is 10x Goku's current strength level, not 50x his base at the start of the fight. Because Freeza's strength has dropped so much, it's enough to defeat him.

[Hitiro]

I read Toriyama's statement to mean one of four possibilities:

4) Goku's BP dropped considerably from the fight plus Kaioken x20. Freeza's also dropped considerably from the Genkidama. SSJ is 10x Goku's current strength level, not 50x his base at the start of the fight. Because Freeza's strength has dropped so much, it's enough to defeat him.

The problem with this last one is that Toriyama's statement says that he imagined 10x stronger than what Goku "could" be at that point. This suggests to me that damage is not in the equation here because Goku "could" be at 60 million at that point if he wasn't injured.

[freezamite]

Hahahahah wow, it can't be that hard to understand a simple sentence like the one Toriyama says, can it?

Let's take this as an example:

1) He envisioned SSJ as a 10x multiplier, but had already plotted/wrote out that Freeza was 2x stronger than Kaioken x20. Therefore, it was assumed by Assistant-kun, the editor and the reader that it was a 50x multiplier because it simply needed to be something greater than 40x at the time of its introduction.

2) It was equal to (Goku's base x 10) stronger than whatever Freeza's max strength is. The 50x multiplier was just a coincidence, therefore.

3) Toriyama considers Kaioken x10 to be Goku's true strength, since that's the level of Kaioken he's mastered and can whip out at will. So his BP would be 300,000,000 since Toriyama viewed Kaioken x10 and base Goku to be interchangeable by virtue of the Kaioken mastery.

4) Goku's BP dropped considerably from the fight plus Kaioken x20. Freeza's also dropped considerably from the Genkidama. SSJ is 10x Goku's current strength level, not 50x his base at the start of the fight. Because Freeza's strength has dropped so much, it's enough to defeat him.

What if he just meant what he said?

I mean, the guides used the x50 multiplier because like most of the "official" fillers they failed to understand the internal logic of the series. To anyone that learned about the series through the manga and not the anime it's obvious that 50% injured Freezer can't be as strong as 50% completely healed Freezer.
The """logic""" behind the 50x multiplier it's as simple as: "hey, if 50% Freezer was more or less even with KKx20 Goku, and SSJ Goku won against 100% Freezer which would be the equivalent of a KKx40 then that means that SSJ is a KKx50" (why not KKx45 for example? Simply because x50 made for a rounder number... XD). They didn't even realize that Freezer lost the fight because he lost power faster than Goku and not because he was weaker... despite being injured! XD

In the manga there's no doubt that the transformation to SSJ + the rage boost gave Goku a 10x boost besides replenishing his stamina instead of the 50x boost that simply can't be possibly justified.

[Tectorman]

In the manga there's no doubt that the transformation to SSJ + the rage boost gave Goku a 10x boost besides replenishing his stamina instead of the 50x boost that simply can't be possibly justified.

Goku is capable of sustaining Kaioken x10, and he can manage Kaioken x20 for a burst.

Any time after the fight on Namek where he uses SSJ instead of Kaioken is either

1) Goku being stupid (how else would you characterize a being capable of a x20 multiplier who settles for merely a x10, even during the fights where he's pushing himself entirely; i.e., why blast Cell with a SSJ (x10) Kamehameha when a Kaioken x20 blast will do more, especially when you intend it to be your final attack?), or

2) proof that SSJ is more than x20.

There. Possible justification.

[freezamite]

Goku is capable of sustaining Kaioken x10, and he can manage Kaioken x20 for a burst.

The KK is a technique that forces the body over its limits in order to achieve a greater strength. Even if Goku was capable of sustaining KKx10, it surely wasn't for free.

Any time after the fight on Namek where he uses SSJ instead of Kaioken is either

1) Goku being stupid (how else would you characterize a being capable of a x20 multiplier who settles for merely a x10, even during the fights where he's pushing himself entirely; i.e., why blast Cell with a SSJ (x10) Kamehameha when a Kaioken x20 blast will do more, especially when you intend it to be your final attack?), or

2) proof that SSJ is more than x20.

SSJ is not a fixed state, that's the main problem I have with those "official multipliers" of the guides. The basic SSJ transformation Goku did in Namek resulted in a 10x boost between it and the rage boost, but if we consider that this 10x boost was all due to the SSJ transformation (in order to make the numbers simple) then the FP SSJ transformation he makes when fighting against Cell would be more like a 30x boost or even a bit more.

The SSJ is by any means a much better option than the KK: much greater potential (KKx20 was only a really short boost that ended destroying one's body while the SSJ far surpassed that multiplier once mastered) at much lesser cost (just a bit of tension, but the body wasn't destroyed like it was during the KK).

[rereboy]

What Toriyama meant what that he originally thought of it as something like 10x. However, when he got to that part, he realized that the numbers he had used regarding Goku's Kaioken and Freeza's power percentages during the fight, meant that what made sense was for SSJ to be something like x50, and not x10 like he was thinking.

In other words, he didn't plan accurately the numbers he used and so the SSJ power increase ended up being bigger than what he first imagined.

[freezamite]

What Toriyama meant what that he originally thought of it as something like 10x. However, when he got to that part, he realized that the numbers he had used regarding Goku's Kaioken and Freeza's power percentages during the fight, meant that what made sense was for SSJ to be something like x50, and not x10 like he was thinking.

In other words, he didn't plan accurately the numbers he used and so the SSJ power increase ended up being bigger than what he first imagined.

The ability to spin reality to fit one's desires will always surprise me. I mean, how can someone take this:
"Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point." and turn it into a "I originally planned to make it a 10x boost but in the end I drew it as a 50x increase".

No, come on, that's precisely the OPPOSITE of what he's actually saying. He says that he drew it with a 10x in mind, but that surprisingly (for him) most people assumed it was a 50x boost and not the 10x boost he drew.

Yes, I know, Toriyama meaning what he said is bad because our beloved SSJ aren't as strong as we would love them to be, but that's not an excuse to spin Toriyama's words to the point of making him say THE OPPOSITE of what he said.

Furthermore, I don't know about which multipliers you're talking about when in the manga it's perfectly clear that the SSJ wasn't a 50x increase. The manga clearly points towards a 10x increase which is obviously what Toriyama drew.

[rereboy]

Sure, buddy, everybody spins and denies reality except you. That's why Freeza = Cell in power and only you see it.

As for why it makes sense for it to be 50x, its because Goku's 20x Kaioken more or less matched Freeza's 50%.

[singsing]

Goku gets rage boosts now? Gohan gets a rage boost, Vegeta gets a rage boost, Goku gets a rage boost, everyone gets a rage boost!!!