The strongest earthling

[rereboy]

Making "the most sense" is completely subjective. If nothing was ever stated, both arguments would be valid precisely because there's no proof one way or the other. There's nothing that could be used as evidence of anything.

I don't really agree. Like I stated before, if Yamcha's statement didn't exist and if Toriyama had never stated anything regarding the subject, everybody would just assume Tenshinhan was stronger because that's the impression that manga gives us in the Cell and Buu arc. There's no definite proof, that's true, but the statement goes agaisnt the natural context, impression and portrayal that exists in the manga.

You say that making the most sense is subjective, which in essence is true, but given that there's absolutely nothing besides the statement giving the impression that Krillin is stronger, and there's stuff that gives us the impression that Tenshinhan is stronger, I don't see how anyone could reasonably and logically argue that the statement doesn't go agaisnt the existing impression.

[Luso Saiyan]

Making "the most sense" is completely subjective. If nothing was ever stated, both arguments would be valid precisely because there's no proof one way or the other. There's nothing that could be used as evidence of anything.

I don't really agree. Like I stated before, if Yamcha's statement didn't exist and if Toriyama had never stated anything regarding the subject, everybody would just assume Tenshinhan was stronger because that's the impression that manga gives us in the Cell and Buu arc. There's no definite proof, that's true, but the statement goes agaisnt the natural context, impression and portrayal that exists in the manga.

But that's the thing, there's nothing in the manga that shows or implies that one is stronger than the other. It only showed that one was more active (read: got more action shots) later on in the timeline, but that in and on itself is not proof or an implication of anything.

[rereboy]

But that's the thing, there's nothing in the manga that shows or implies that one is stronger than the other. It only showed that one was more active (read: got more action shots) later on in the timeline, but that in and on itself is not proof or an implication of anything.

What Tenshinhan does compared to what Krillin does gives off an impression of Tenshinhan being stronger than Krillin. It doesn't constitute proof because it doesn't directly compare them but it does give off an impression.

If Yamcha's statement confirmed Tenshinhan as stronger than Krillin, nobody would be surprised because that's what the impression is in the Cell arc and even in the Buu arc. But it doesn't, it confirms the opposite of the impression, which is what surprises people. This shows how having Tenshinhan being the stronger would make more sense. Having Krillin as the stronger one still makes sense because there's nothing definite showing that he isn't, but it simple doesn't make as much sense as Tenshinhan being stronger.

[mAcChaos]

Making "the most sense" is completely subjective. If nothing was ever stated, both arguments would be valid precisely because there's no proof one way or the other. There's nothing that could be used as evidence of anything.

I don't really agree. Like I stated before, if Yamcha's statement didn't exist and if Toriyama had never stated anything regarding the subject, everybody would just assume Tenshinhan was stronger because that's the impression that manga gives us in the Cell and Buu arc. There's no definite proof, that's true, but the statement goes agaisnt the natural context, impression and portrayal that exists in the manga.

But that's the thing, there's nothing in the manga that shows or implies that one is stronger than the other. It only showed that one was more active (read: got more action shots) later on in the timeline, but that in and on itself is not proof or an implication of anything.

By that logic, without Yamcha's statement, you could speculate that Krillin is stronger than Piccolo.

What people should be looking at is their personality. Tenshinhan has /always/ rushed off to fight bad guys he had no chance to beat because he's a hothead. Look at his ordeal with King Piccolo.

Meanwhile Krillin has always hung back and been more of a strategic thinker.

I bet if Tenshinhan was on Namek he would've done the same thing.

So just because Tenshinhan went on a suicide mission because his honor can't stand not jumping into the fight, while Krillin went looking for a long term solution (the remote) that doesn't make Krillin weaker.

It's kind of like Vegeta and Goku. Vegeta is always the one that goes rushing off to fight while Goku stays back til the time is right.

[Luso Saiyan]

What Tenshinhan does compared to what Krillin does gives off an impression of Tenshinhan being stronger than Krillin.

Only in terms of character. One does something while the other does nothing. That doesn't mean the latter can't do something.

By that logic, without Yamcha's statement, you could speculate that Krillin is stronger than Piccolo.

I don't see the correlation nor why one would assume that. But sure, if you think it's open to interpretation, then it's open to speculation.

So just because Tenshinhan went on a suicide mission because his honor can't stand not jumping into the fight, while Krillin went looking for a long term solution (the remote) that doesn't make Krillin weaker.

Exactly.

[rereboy]

By that logic, without Yamcha's statement, you could speculate that Krillin is stronger than Piccolo.

What people should be looking at is their personality. Tenshinhan has /always/ rushed off to fight bad guys he had no chance to beat because he's a hothead. Look at his ordeal with King Piccolo.

Meanwhile Krillin has always hung back and been more of a strategic thinker.

I bet if Tenshinhan was on Namek he would've done the same thing.

So just because Tenshinhan went on a suicide mission because his honor can't stand not jumping into the fight, while Krillin went looking for a long term solution (the remote) that doesn't make Krillin weaker.

It's kind of like Vegeta and Goku. Vegeta is always the one that goes rushing off to fight while Goku stays back til the time is right.

Its not just his attitude, Tenshinhan actually has feats while Krillin has none at all. Tenshinhan does stuff noteworthy in both the Cell arc and Buu arc and is even commented on his skills/power by the third strongest character in the manga (Gotenks-Buu). Krillin does absolutely nothing noteworthy fighting wise.

When rereading the Cell arc and Buu arc, if you keep in mind that Krillin is stronger than Tenshinhan, that notion actually feels kind of weird and contrary to the impression that you are getting from the manga.

Only in terms of character. One does something while the other does nothing. That doesn't mean the latter can't do something.

And my point is not that Krillin can't be stronger even if we forget Yamcha's statement. By all means, he can, it makes sense since there's nothing definitive saying/showing that he can't be stronger. My point is just that having Tenshinhan be stronger would make even more sense because it would be more coherent with the overall impression given off by the manga in the Cell arc and Buu arc.

[mAcChaos]

By that logic, without Yamcha's statement, you could speculate that Krillin is stronger than Piccolo.

What people should be looking at is their personality. Tenshinhan has /always/ rushed off to fight bad guys he had no chance to beat because he's a hothead. Look at his ordeal with King Piccolo.

Meanwhile Krillin has always hung back and been more of a strategic thinker.

I bet if Tenshinhan was on Namek he would've done the same thing.

So just because Tenshinhan went on a suicide mission because his honor can't stand not jumping into the fight, while Krillin went looking for a long term solution (the remote) that doesn't make Krillin weaker.

It's kind of like Vegeta and Goku. Vegeta is always the one that goes rushing off to fight while Goku stays back til the time is right.

Its not just his attitude, Tenshinhan actually has feats while Krillin has none at all. Tenshinhan does stuff noteworthy in both the Cell arc and Buu arc and is even commented on his skills/power by the third strongest character in the manga (Gotenks-Buu). Krillin does absolutely nothing noteworthy fighting wise.

When rereading the Cell arc and Buu arc, if you keep in mind that Krillin is stronger than Tenshinhan, that notion actually feels kind of weird and contrary to the impression that you are getting from the manga.

The feats only exist because he went into battles he was never going to win though. In the Cell arc he says something about how he just can't stand being on the sidelines and jets off, right before Roshi calls him a fool. In the Buu arc, he deflects a blast from Buu with a surprise attack, but if Ten could do it, it's hard to think Krillin couldn't either given how huge the gap between Buu and the humans is.

[rereboy]

The feats only exist because he went into battles he was never going to win though. In the Cell arc he says something about how he just can't stand being on the sidelines and jets off, right before Roshi calls him a fool. In the Buu arc, he deflects a blast from Buu with a surprise attack, but if Ten could do it, it's hard to think Krillin couldn't either given how huge the gap between Buu and the humans is.

That's why it doesn't constitute proof that Tenshinhan is stronger. But I'm not arguing that its proof. I'm arguing that the impression in those arcs is clearly more in Tenshinhan's favor and thus, it would make more sense for the author to decide that Tenshinhan is stronger via a statement than the opposite.

[fadeddreams5]

Put it this way, if Toriyama confirmed that Tien was the strongest human, nobody would argue that fact at all; this topic would not exist. Even if you disregarded Toriyama's golden words, there would be no logical way to debate that Krillin is stronger without making stuff up or theorizing. With Tien, you can use his DB resume, his small but impressive feats in DBZ, and even that Bojack movie if you really wanna go there. You can say, "he is clearly the more serious fighter, and trains harder." Seriously, just switch the positions of the two, and you'll see it my way. Krillin is only stronger because Toriyama wants him to be, or remembers him more.

The fact that the comments of official sources and Toriyama have stirred this debate says it all, imo. >.>

[Hitiro]

Put it this way, if Toriyama confirmed that Tenshinhan was the strongest human, nobody would argue that fact at all; this topic would not exist. Aside from Toriyama's golden words, there is no way to back up that Krillin is stronger without making stuff up or theorizing. With Tenshinhan, you can use his DB resume, his small but impressive feats in DBZ, and even that Bojack movie if you really wanna go there. You can say, "he is clearly the more serious fighter, and trains harder." Seriously, just switch the positions of the two, and you'll see it my way. Krillin is only stronger because Toriyama wants him to be, or remembers him more.

The fact that the comments of official sources and Toriyama have stirred this debate says it all, imo. >.>

Tenshinhan's feats are only notable because of his Shin Kikoho, really. I mean given that Kuririn managed to cut of Freeza's tail with a piddly battle power of around 10,000 compared to Freeza's self proclaimed 1 million shows that certain techniques largely bloat some characters feats. The Kienzan would have been enough to kill Nappa yet that doesn't mean that Kuririn is stronger than Nappa. Nor does it mean that Tenshinhan was inferior to Kuririn at this given point in time. If we reverse the roles and have Kuririn keeping Cell at bay through constant Kienzan's that kept forcing Cell to regenerate over and over again then you can easily see it the way everyone is saying it.

I honestly don't think Toriyama's belief that Kuririn comes from him just remembering him better. And considering Yamcha pretty much states that Kuririn is the strongest amongst the Earthlings there is no reason to exclude what Toriyama was conveying through his character here.

[fadeddreams5]

That's more the kienzan than Krillin though, a move with a ton of duplicates throughout the series (Frieza, Vegeta, and Goku use their own versions). The Tri-Beam is pretty much exclusive to Tien and has no variants, as far as I recall.

[Hitiro]

That's more the kienzan than Krillin though, a move with a ton of duplicates throughout the series (Freeza, Vegeta, and Goku use their own versions). The Tri-Beam is pretty much exclusive to Tenshinhan and has no variants, as far as I recall.

That's the point I'm making. In the same way the feats I mentioned are Kuririn's feats because of his Kienzan. The feats that Tenshinhan pulls off are more his Kikoho's feats than his own. And there is a variant on the Kikoho. The upgraded version he made called the Shin Kikoho.

[fadeddreams5]

Yeah, but that never happened. Going by the source material, Tien fired off multiple shots of the Shin Kikoho and held back Cell. This is a feat. And it was impressive. Based on the manga, we don't know if Krillin's kienzan would have stalled Cell or if he can master the Kikoho with the amount of proficiency Tien has (not collapsing after using three in a row) because it never happened. All we have are the words of the creator.

I have no choice but to accept Krillin is stronger, even if I think it's bs. But all I'm saying is, if Toriyama confirmed Tien was the strongest earthling, there'd be little argument against that, unlike what we're having in this thread. = P

[Hitiro]

Yeah, but that never happened. Going by the source material, Tenshinhan fired off multiple shots of the Shin Kikoho and held back Cell. This is a feat. And it was impressive. Based on the manga, we don't know if Krillin's kienzan would have stalled Cell or if he can master the Kikoho with the amount of proficiency Tenshinhan has (not collapsing after using three in a row) because it never happened. All we have are the words of the creator.

I have no choice but to accept Krillin is stronger, even if I think it's bs. But all I'm saying is, if Toriyama confirmed Tenshinhan was the strongest earthling, there'd be little argument against that, unlike what we're having in this thread. = P

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. In the exact same way Kuririn's feats aren't his own because he was using the Kienzan. Tenshinhan's feats aren't his own because he is using the Shin Kikoho. Saying Tenshinhan's feats are impressive means nothing if it's purely based on an absurdly powerful Ki-technique. This is the same for Kuririn. I mean you literally told me that we can't accept Kuririn's feats as his own because it was the Kienzan's doing. So why is it okay to say that the feats done by Tenshinhan's Kikoho are Tenshinhan's feats and not Kuririn's? If it came down to a fight without using their best moves then Kuririn's probably going to take it. Even if we allow them to use the techniques if Kuririn is a 100x stronger than Tenshinhan then Tenshinhan won't be able to react fast enough to even get Kuririn with his technique.

The only way to judge them fairly would be to assess them without their special moves. Because at the end of the day if they were up against each other in a tournament setting again then the one with the overall superior abilities is going to be the victor. Regardless of their absurdly op techniques. But we can't have assess them on these because neither of them have any notable feats.

[rereboy]

It doesn't matter if in-universe Tenshinhan is only able to hold off Cell thanks to his technique or not. The point is that the impression that the manga gives off consistently in both the Cell arc and Buu arc is of Tenshinhan being superior when we think about the two of them in those arcs.

You can obviously justify logically why Krillin is superior because there's nothing in there proving that Tenshinhan is superior, but that doesn't change the impression and portrayal that the manga gives off.

Basically, what you are arguing is why those feats don't constitute proof of Tenshinhan's superiority to Krillin. But nobody is arguing that they constitute proof. What is being argued is what would have been the author's choice that would make most sense within the manga for the stronger fighter. And Tenshinhan simply makes more sense given the impression and portrayal of the Cell and Buu arc. Krillin also makes sense, but not as much.

[In Brightest Day]

I'm aware of Tenshinhan coming to Gohan and Dende's aid, but did he have a dialogue with Buuhan? I only remember Buu insulting him in the anime.

Edit: Grammar.

[flashback0180]

No Uub would undoubtedly the strongest human in the verse.

[rereboy]

I'm aware of Tenshinhan coming to Gohan and Dende's aid, but did he have a dialog with Buuhan? I only remember Buu insulting him in the anime.

From the Herms' strengh checker:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P7.1
Context: talking to Goku after knocking out Tenshinhan
Boo: “…That guy just now was apparently quite a master, but he was reduced to that state in just 1 one kick…You’re making some empty boasts…Frankly, no matter what you try, you absolutely won’t be able to even inflict damage on me.”

This is pretty high praising regarding Tenshinhan, considering that Gotenks-Buu is the third strongest fighter in the manga.

[Diotor]

Couple of theoretical questions regarding this:

1. If Tenshinhan had gone to Namek instead of Krillin (say Krillin is killed by Nappa instead) would he be any more use as he was slightly more powerful at this time?

2. Would Guru's potential unlocking give him anything more significant of an increase than Krillin?

3. Would it have kept Tenshinhan ahead of Krillin for the rest of the series if everything else proceeded in the same manner?

EDIT: 4. Could Tenshinhan have spammed the Kikoho to delay Frieza to allow Goku more time to pull of the Genki Dama, assuming he isn't killed by Freeza beforehand?

[In Brightest Day]

I'm aware of Tenshinhan coming to Gohan and Dende's aid, but did he have a dialog with Buuhan? I only remember Buu insulting him in the anime.

From the Herms' strengh checker:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P7.1
Context: talking to Goku after knocking out Tenshinhan
Boo: “…That guy just now was apparently quite a master, but he was reduced to that state in just 1 one kick…You’re making some empty boasts…Frankly, no matter what you try, you absolutely won’t be able to even inflict damage on me.”

This is pretty high praising regarding Tenshinhan, considering that Gotenks-Buu is the third strongest fighter in the manga.

Ah, that's right. Yeah, not a bad compliment at all, no doubt coming from Piccolo's memory banks.