Toriyama and the Super Saiyan multiplier

[Hitiro]

The ability to spin reality to fit one's desires will always surprise me. I mean, how can someone take this:
"Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point." and turn it into a "I originally planned to make it a 10x boost but in the end I drew it as a 50x increase".

No, come on, that's precisely the OPPOSITE of what he's actually saying. He says that he drew it with a 10x in mind, but that surprisingly (for him) most people assumed it was a 50x boost and not the 10x boost he drew.

Yes, I know, Toriyama meaning what he said is bad because our beloved SSJ aren't as strong as we would love them to be, but that's not an excuse to spin Toriyama's words to the point of making him say THE OPPOSITE of what he said.

Furthermore, I don't know about which multipliers you're talking about when in the manga it's perfectly clear that the SSJ wasn't a 50x increase. The manga clearly points towards a 10x increase which is obviously what Toriyama drew.

You have to understand that when Toriyama talked about this it had already been almost 20 years. He likely took Goku's Kaioken strength as Goku's base strength that he "could" use up to that point. I mean the man forgot all about SSJ2 and that had a major role in his story and was used throughout the story until the end of the Boo arc. Given the time discrepancy between that and Kaioken it's not very unlikely that he forgot about Kaioken. So yes, in Toriyama's mind 50x what Goku's strength "could" be at that point is pretty ridiculous because Goku's strength could be at 50% Freeza with the Kaioken which Toriyama likely forgot about.

Essentially Goku's strength as a SSJ if Toriyama believed Kaioken x10 or x20 was Goku's base, through forgetting about the technique, would mean that he was 12.5x-25x stronger than Freeza. Given how the fight between Goku and Freeza played out it is clear that Goku isn't that strong.

[Kaboom]

Hahahahah wow, it can't be that hard to understand a simple sentence like the one Toriyama says, can it?

The ability to spin reality to fit one's desires will always surprise me.

This attitude from you is 100% uncalled for and unwelcome. If you want to put forth a different theory from the relatively simple ones that the book or your peers offer, fine. But don't act like everyone but you is stubborn or some sort of simpleton for not agreeing.

[freezamite]

Sure, buddy, everybody spins and denies reality except you. That's why Freeza = Cell in power and only you see it.

Not everybody, but you certainly did it. You spinned Toriyama's words to the extreme of saying that he said the OPPOSITE of what he really said. You could've said that "he forgot about that part of the series so he was wrong" and we could've discussed if that was the case or if it wasn't.
But what you did was exactly what I said.

As for why it makes sense for it to be 50x, its because Goku's 20x Kaioken more or less matched Freeza's 50%.

Which makes the x50 totally impossible for two reasons:
1. 20x KaioKen matched Freezer's 50% before Freezer was severely injured by the Genkidama. To not take that into account is like saying that "the enraged Gohan that fought against Vegeta in the earth had 18.000 units of power or a number really close to that because he put up a fight against the saiyan and Vegeta was confirmed to be at 18.000". Well, it happens that when Gohan fought against Vegeta in order to protect his father Vegeta had already lost a ton of strength due to being injured, and that's why Gohan could fight against him without being even close to 18.000.

2. Even if for whatever reason we assume that Freezer didn't lose energy through the injuries even when it's blatantly obvious that he does, it happens that 100% Freezer equalled SSJ Goku. It was for a short period of time because Freezer lost energy faster than a normal fighter would (and that's logic if that was his first time fighting at his 100% and if he had never trained in his life), but he still equalled Goku SSJ. A 50x multiplier would make the difference between 100% Freezer and SSJ Goku bigger than the one between Vegeta and Dodoria for example, so even in that case a 50x multiplier is impossible. More like a 39-41x. But as I say, Freezer was badly injured by the Genkidama and he had lost a lot of strength, so the 10x it's perfectly possible. 50x directly contradicts the manga (and the manga had it's own share of contradictions, but that doesn't mean that nothing in it was coherent).

Goku gets rage boosts now? Gohan gets a rage boost, Vegeta gets a rage boost, Goku gets a rage boost, everyone gets a rage boost!!!

Are you saying that Goku didn't get a Rage boost? That he was as weakened before Krilin's death as he was after that? Well, considering he couldn't even stand up by himself, that nobody healed him and that it was just when he enraged that he got the power boost, yes, I think there're enough reasons to think that had a rage boost.
It could be that some aliens with the technology to teleport energy from their energy generators to Goku's body replenished Goku's energy just at the same moment he was enraged, but since nothing like that was implied and Goku said that "I’m a Saiyan who came from Earth to defeat you…A legendary warrior whose tranquil heart has been awakened through intense rage…Super Saiyan Son Goku!" I choose to consider what happened there a rage boost.

You have to understand that when Toriyama talked about this it had already been almost 20 years. He likely took Goku's Kaioken strength as Goku's base strength that he "could" use up to that point. I mean the man forgot all about SSJ2

Well, he could be wrong, of course, but what we have to do in order to check if Toriyama was right or if it wasn't is to try to convey his "10x boost" with the manga. Is it possible to explain what happened in the manga with Toriyama's numbers? Because if it's possible to explain it with Toriyama's own numbers, then, even if other numbers and explanations seem equally possible, we still have to go with Toriyama's number.

Only if it's absolutely impossible to use Toriyama's numbers to explain what happened in the manga we can say "he forgot about it".

This attitude from you is 100% uncalled for and unwelcome. If you want to put forth a different theory from the relatively simple ones that the book or your peers offer, fine. But don't act like everyone but you is stubborn or some sort of simpleton for not agreeing.

For not agreeing? No, it wasn't for not agreeing with me.
I simply said that to grab "Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point" and turn it into a "I originally planned to make it a 10x boost but in the end and seeing how the fight went I drew it as a 50x increase because it better fit the story" is to spin reality. I mean, you can disagree with Toriyama as much as you want, but he said what he said.

[rereboy]

Not everybody, but you certainly did it. You spinned Toriyama's words to the extreme of saying that he said the OPPOSITE of what he really said.

No, I just stated what I think is the most likely thing he meant. I don't really care if you agree or not.

Which makes the x50 totally impossible for two reasons:
1. 20x KaioKen matched Freezer's 50% before Freezer was severely injured by the Genkidama. To not take that into account is like saying that "the enraged Gohan that fought against Vegeta in the earth had 18.000 units of power or a number really close to that because he put up a fight against the saiyan and Vegeta was confirmed to be at 18.000". Well, it happens that when Gohan fought against Vegeta in order to protect his father Vegeta had already lost a ton of strength due to being injured, and that's why Gohan could fight against him without being even close to 18.000.

2. Even if for whatever reason we assume that Freezer didn't lose energy through the injuries even when it's blatantly obvious that he does, it happens that 100% Freezer equalled SSJ Goku. It was for a short period of time because Freezer lost energy faster than a normal fighter would (logic if that was his first time fighting at his 100% and if he had never trained in his life), but he still equalled Goku SSJ. A 50x multiplier would make the difference between 100% Freezer and SSJ Goku bigger than the one between Vegeta and Dodoria for example, so even in that case a 50x multiplier is impossible. More like a 39-41x. But as I say, Freezer was badly injured by the Genkidama and he had lost a lot of strength, so the 10x it's perfectly possible. 50x directly contradicts the manga (and the manga had it's own share of contradictions, but that doesn't mean that nothing in it was coherent).

Goku was just as injured as Freeza. In fact, he appeared to be more injured than Freeza, so any power that Freeza lost due to his injuries was more than compensated by Goku's injuries. So, no.

Oh, and no, SSJ doesn't magically heal injuries.

I simply said that to grab "Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point" and turn it into a "I originally planned to make it a 10x boost but in the end and seeing how the fight went I drew it as a 50x increase because it better fit the story" is to spin reality. I mean, you can disagree with Toriyama as much as you want, but he said what he said.

Sure, I'm denying reality when I have a different interpretation of Toriyama's words, but you are not denying reality when you claim that implying that another user is delusional is not uncalled for. Sure, friend, sure...

[freezamite]

No, I just stated what I think is the most likely thing he meant. I don't really care if you agree or not.

There's a limit between interpreting something and transforming it into something different, and you crossed that limit without any kind of doubt.

Here's the original statement:
"My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point" and your interpretation of this sentence according to you is "I wanted it to be a 10x boost, but in the end I drew a 50x boost because that's what it had to be at that point" and I say that this is not interpreting, this is transforming.
Interpreting could be to grab that "what it was up to that point" and say "This included the KKx20 so Toriyama meant it was a 200x increase", I would still strongly disagree with that but I wouldn't speak of "reality spins".

Goku was just as injured as Freeza. In fact, he appeared to be more injured than Freeza, so any power that Freeza lost due to his injuries was more than compensated by Goku's injuries. So, no.

Oh, and no, SSJ doesn't magically heal injuries.

SSJ doesn't magically heal injuries, but rage boosts surely replenishes one's stamina and even do more than that. If Goku didn't replenish any of his energy, how is that in chapter 325 he turns back to his normal state and he can not only fly at full speed but also dodge one of Freezer's attacks?
Goku's injuries were compensated by Goku's own rage boost.

Sure, I'm denying reality when I have a different interpretation of Toriyama's words, but you are not denying reality when you claim that implying that another user is delusional is not uncalled for. Sure, friend, sure...

You're not interpreting, you're literally transforming his words which is something different, friend

[rereboy]

There's only one character stated to have rage boosts in the manga: Gohan. And its explained why he has rage boosts, namely because he, as a saiyan-human hybrid, has vast reserves of power but he has trouble accessing them without an emotional trigger.

If Freeza lost power with the Genki Dama and his fight with Goku, so did Goku. It doesn't make sense to argue that only Freeza lost power. In fact, its apparent in the manga that Goku lost more power than Freeza. So, if he could match Freeza with his 20x kaioken when Freeza was at 50%, and both lost proportionately the same amount of power or Goku lost even more, than Goku needs a increase of more than 40x when Freeza goes 100%. Hence, the 50x.

As for the rest, ya, ya, my interpretation is crap because you don't agree with it but everything you say is correct and golden. No need to repeat yourself.

[freezamite]

There's only one character stated to have rage boosts in the manga: Gohan. And its explained why he has rage boosts, namely because he, as a saiyan-human hybrid, has vast reserves of power but he has trouble accessing them without an emotional trigger.

That's only the first explanation given by Vegeta, and was pure speculation. The rage boosts were later attributed to Gohan's pacific nature and neither of the other hybrids (Goten or Trunks) had them because they had a more violent nature.
Goku also had a rage boost, he himself explained this to Freezer and chapter 325 demonstrates that he had replenished his power without any kind of doubt.

If Freeza lost power with the Genki Dama and his fight with Goku, so did Goku. It doesn't make sense to argue that only Freeza lost power.

Yes, both of them lost their power, but only one of them replenished it and transformed. See, it's not as if chapter 325 of the manga didn't exist. We have it here, we can read it and we can touch it and it has Goku turning back to his base state with all his energy replenished.

As for the rest, ya, ya, my interpretation is crap because you don't agree with it but everything you say is correct and golden. No need to repeat yourself.

So you're saying you'll search for my home and kill my parents only because I disagree with you? Do you know those menaces are forbidden by the forum rules? You should be banned for doing this... (See, I can also "interpret" your words in the same style you do).

[rereboy]

SSJ sure is amazing, making Goku's condition go back to its normal state. I do wonder why they don't just turn SSJ after that whenever they are tired or injured. It would be even more conveniente than a senzu.

And yes, your extreme example is totally comparable to what I said.

[freezamite]

SSJ sure is amazing, making Goku's condition go back to its normal state. I do wonder why they don't just turn SSJ after that whenever they are tired or injured. It would be even more conveniente than a senzu.

And yes, your extreme example is totally comparable to what I said.

Well, of course it is, I mean, I said:
"SSJ doesn't magically heal injuries, but rage boosts surely replenishes one's stamina and even do more than that."
and you answered
"SSJ sure is amazing, making Goku's condition go back to its normal state. I do wonder why they don't just turn SSJ after that whenever they are tired or injured. It would be even more conveniente than a senzu."

Of course, after seeing how you turned
"My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point"
into
"My feeling as the creator is that I wanted the SSJ to be a 10x boost, but in the end I had to make it be a 50x boost"
you can't consider me surprised by any means, I mean, that was totally expected.

Believe me, I'm not saying you're doing it on purpose, but it happens that what is written and what you understand seems to be completely different things, often even to the extreme of you understanding the opposite.
Let's try to rephrase my stance on the subject:
SSJ NO heal and NO replenish energy. Rage NO heal but rage YES replenish energy. So I say: "RAGE REPLENISH GOKU'S ENERGY, SSJ NOT".

[Kaboom]

So you're saying you'll search for my home and kill my parents only because I disagree with you? Do you know those menaces are forbidden by the forum rules? You should be banned for doing this... (See, I can also "interpret" your words in the same style you do).

I'm genuinely flabbergasted by how out-of-place and disrespectful this is. There is absolutely no comparison between trying to reconcile a rather confusing quote in a way that makes sense, and... whatever this is right here.

You've turned this thread into another shameless, "people are biased and stupid for interpreting things in ways other than my own" tirade, and we're not going to put up with it. Everything worth saying was already said on the first page. It's done.