The strongest earthling

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Because it's not inconsistent. Krillin > Tenshinhan isn't contradicted by anything. The only things really ever messed up in the manga where small/minor/insignificant details.

I just can't see the logic behind "Toriyama was wrong when he had Yamcha say Krillin was the strongest earthling just because Tenshinhan trains."

[FoolsGil]

For Kuririn: "We have Point A, Point B, Point C, Point D, and Point E, which all together clearly indicate that Kuririn is the strongest Earthling, and thus stronger than Tenshinhan."
For Ten: "I choose to ignore and/or attempt to debase those points, and make stuff up instead."

Well I made up jack. I read the manga too but know when to stop taking things for face value, and I proved what I said by using the author's own logic for his own series. If what I said can honestly be refuted beyond "But Toriyama said Krillin..." Then I'll quiet down.

[Kaboom]

Well I made up jack. I read the manga too but know when to stop taking things for face value, and I proved what I said by using the author's own logic for his own series. If what I said can honestly be refuted beyond "But Toriyama said Krillin..." Then I'll quiet down.

1) You've provided nothing but your own arbitrary views on how strong each of them got, even rejecting an official number in the process.
2) Among plenty of other things, Toriyama saying Kuririn is the strongest does refute what you say, and is entirely uncontradicted. You're just choosing to dismiss it.

[FoolsGil]

1) You've provided nothing but your own arbitrary views on how strong each of them got, even rejecting an official number in the process.

75,000 is Krillin's official pl on Namek? Source?

[Kaboom]

75,000 is Krillin's official pl on Namek? Source?

Sure, right here.

Never refuted, replaced, or contradicted by anything. No reason whatsoever to reject it beyond "I don't think he should be that strong."

[FoolsGil]

75,000 is Krillin's official pl on Namek? Source?

Sure, right here.

Never refuted, replaced, or contradicted by anything. No reason whatsoever to reject it beyond "I don't think he should be that strong."

WHAT! How come Krillin and Gohan got wrecked?! That doesn't make sense! They would not have needed Goku to take out Recoome, or Burtur or Jeice! Was it not Ginyu who said a power level of 60,000 would be needed to stop those three? So why didn't Krillin stop those three?!

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Because that was after the Recoome fight. Like I said, during the Freeza fight, Vegeta says Gohan and Krillin's power keep increasing.

[FoolsGil]

Because that was after the Recoome fight. Like I said, during the Freeza fight, Vegeta says Gohan and Krillin's power keep increasing.

*breathes in* *breathes out*

Never mind. Krillin is the strongest there is.

[Kaboom]

WHAT! How come Krillin and Gohan got wrecked?! That doesn't make sense! They would not have needed Goku to take out Recoome, or Burtur or Jeice! Was it not Ginyu who said a power level of 60,000 would be needed to stop those three? So why didn't Krillin stop those three?!

The 75,000 number is for the battle against Freeza, not the Ginyu Force. Against Recoome, Kuririn's official power level is 13,000, and a short while after that he's doing fine against Ginyu-Goku's power of 23,000.

The battle with Freeza is even later, and Vegeta even points out how Gohan and Kuririn's power keeps rising. Evidently, the 75,000 number is taking this all into account and assuming the boost from the Grand Elder was cumulative over time (Gohan's official starting PL against Freeza is a whopping 200,000!). Which puts Kuririn so far ahead of the other Earthlings, that even after a year or so of training under Kaio's and 7 years of mountain training after Cell, Tenshinhan still hasn't caught up. Which fits with Yamcha's comment, Toriyama's comment, and... y'know, everything else.

[rereboy]

The 75.000 number doesn't exist in the manga, it just exists in a guidebook. The last measurable thing we have of Krillin is him having trouble taking down a 20.000 something Ginyu-Goku while paired with Gohan.

Yes, its true that Vegeta mentioned that Krillin's power was still growing but there's nothing there to suggest how much because there's nothing in the Freeza fight for us to guess if he is 20.000 something or 75.000 or any other number, and he is incomparable to Gohan who has zenkais, rage boosts and a totally different potential.

This means that the 75.000 number in the guidebook is basically a random guessed number for Krillin.

Furthermore, even if we want to consider the 75.000 number as accurate, Goku went from a powerlevel of around 500 to around 8000 at Kaio's after spending only 128 days there. That's around a 16 times increase in 128 days. Tenshinhan, on the other hand, spend more than 260 days there, more than double the time Goku spent there. Let's assume that Tenshinhan wouldn't have as big of an increase per day at Kaio's as Goku, let's say he just increased in power 28 times in all that time. If he had around 2000 when he fought Nappa, with a 28 times increase he would be at 56.000, just 19.000 behind Krillin. I don't see why Tenshinhan wouldn't cover that difference at least during the 7 years Krillin didn't train and he continued to train.

Add to that the portrayal of Tenshinhan in the Cell arc and Buu arc, and Tenshinhan being stronger simply would have made more sense.

[Tyro]

Which puts Kuririn so far ahead of the other Earthlings, that even after a year or so of training under Kaio's and 7 years of mountain training after Cell, Tenshinhan still hasn't caught up. Which fits with Yamcha's comment, Toriyama's comment, and... y'know, everything else.

Supposing Piccolo really did become stronger than Nail in 6 days or less, I don't see why it's not a viable argument that Tenshinhan re-surpassed Kuririn while he was training on Kaio's. Furthermore it looks like your phrasing is backwards. You're claiming that explicit evidence exists that fits Yamcha's statement, thus verifying it, but it's just the opposite: there are statements which can be argued to be false based on the evidence, or lack thereof.

That's around a 16 times increase in 128 days.

158 days.

[DieHard]

The 75.000 number doesn't exist in the manga, it just exists in a guidebook. The last measurable thing we have of Krillin is him having trouble taking down a 20.000 something Ginyu-Goku while paired with Gohan.

Yes, its true that Vegeta mentioned that Krillin's power was still growing but there's nothing there to suggest how much because there's nothing in the Freeza fight for us to guess if he is 20.000 something or 75.000 or any other number, and he is incomparable to Gohan who has zenkais, rage boosts and a totally different potential.

This means that the 75.000 number in the guidebook is basically a random guessed number for Krillin.

Furthermore, even if we want to consider the 75.000 number as accurate, Goku went from a powerlevel of around 500 to around 8000 at Kaio's after spending only 128 days there. That's around a 16 times increase in 128 days. Tenshinhan, on the other hand, spend more than 260 days there, more than double the time Goku spent there. Let's assume that Tenshinhan wouldn't have as big of an increase per day at Kaio's as Goku, let's say he just increased in power 28 times in all that time. If he had around 2000 when he fought Nappa, with a 28 times increase he would be at 56.000, just 19.000 behind Krillin. I don't see why Tenshinhan wouldn't cover that difference at least during the 7 years Krillin didn't train and he continued to train.

Add to that the portrayal of Tenshinhan in the Cell arc and Buu arc, and Tenshinhan being stronger simply would have made more sense.

vegeta punched goku a little and he went from 180,000 to 60,000,000 according to the daizenshuu

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Supposing Piccolo really did become stronger than Nail in 6 days or less, I don't see why it's not a viable argument that Tenshinhan re-surpassed Kuririn while he was training on Kaio's.

Tenshinhan isn't Piccolo. Tenshinhan's gains are ambiguous and completely speculative.

Furthermore it looks like your phrasing is backwards. You're claiming that explicit evidence exists that fits Yamcha's statement, thus verifying it, but it's just the opposite: there are statements which can be argued to be false based on the evidence, or lack thereof.

Authors don't give us false information. He wouldn't make a character say something for it to be blatantly wrong and never have us find out. There's no evidence at all to argue Yamcha's statement is wrong.

[Tyro]

Tenshinhan isn't Piccolo. Tenshinhan's gains are ambiguous and completely speculative.

No, Tenshinhan is not Piccolo. But he trained with Piccolo, as did Yamcha and Chaozu. Logic would hold that if Piccolo managed to skyrocket his battle power from the 2,000-4,000 range to over 42,000 in ~6 days, everyone else probably became pretty powerful as well.

Authors don't give us false information. He wouldn't make a character say something for it to be blatantly wrong. There's no evidence at all to argue Yamcha's statement is wrong.

There's hardly any evidence at all, and that's why this is such an argument in the first place. I'm a fence-sitter. I'm not claiming to know who's the stronger of the two. I simply don't find it to be ridiculous that Tenshinhan could have once again surpassed Kuririn while training on Kaio's, or training for the Artificial Humans, or training before the Boo arc, or training before the end of the series. I also wouldn't put it past Yamcha to be wrong, or for Toriyama to not give a hoot and just make that statement. I'm trying to look at it strictly from an in-universe perspective and keep the options open.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

No, Tenshinhan is not Piccolo. But he trained with Piccolo, as did Yamcha and Chaozu. Logic would hold that if Piccolo managed to skyrocket his battle power from the 2,000-4,000 range to over 42,000 in ~6 days, everyone else probably became pretty powerful as well.

It's all completely speculative. Tenshinhan could've made huge gains or got like 1.25x stronger. We just don't know for sure. It would make sense, I suppose, to assume that Tenshinhan should have made huge gains based on Piccolo and Goku, but it's not concrete.

There's hardly any evidence at all, and that's why this is such an argument in the first place. I'm a fence-sitter. I'm not claiming to know who's the stronger of the two. I simply don't find it to be ridiculous that Tenshinhan could have once again surpassed Kuririn while training on Kaio's, or training for the Artificial Humans, or training before the Boo arc, or training before the end of the series. I also wouldn't put it past Yamcha to be wrong, or for Toriyama to not give a hoot and just make that statement. I'm trying to look at it strictly from an in-universe perspective and keep the options open.

Nothing really suggesting Yamcha to be wrong tbh, and I mean, it's not like Toriyama had forgot Tenshinhan at that time, he had just drawn him at the Cell Games and later shows him when Goku goes SSJ3.

It's not crazy to assume Tenshinhan surpassed Krillin, but nothing really supports it, and it's contradicted from multiple outside sources.

[Tyro]

It's all completely speculative. Tenshinhan could've made huge gains or got like 1.25x stronger. We just don't know for sure. It would make sense, I suppose, to assume that Tenshinhan should have made huge gains based on Piccolo and Goku, but it's not concrete.

I agree. We don't even know that Piccolo surpassed Nail at all. Either way, stronger or weaker, Nail was trying to goad him into using Assimilation. He could also have been comparing Piccolo to members of the Dragon Clan, or other members that were Warrior-type. And whether it was 3,000 to over 42,000 or 3,000 to 20,000, that's still an unbelievably huge jump in power for someone doing not-as-special-as-100G training.

Nothing really suggesting Yamcha to be wrong tbh, and I mean, it's not like Toriyama had forgot Tenshinhan at that time, he had just drawn him at the Cell Games and later shows him when Goku goes SSJ3.

It's not crazy to assume Tenshinhan surpassed Krillin, but nothing really supports it, and it's contradicted from multiple outside sources.

This thread has already repeated all the classic rebuttals. "He wouldn't know who the stronger one is at this point", "He was trying to reassure Kuririn's little girl", "Tenshinhan is a monster with the Kikoho (in before "it's all about the technique")", etc, etc. I don't mind if we see if differently, and I'm not against the viewpoint that it really is that straightforward.

[lord turbo]

Tenshinhan isn't Piccolo. Tenshinhan's gains are ambiguous and completely speculative.

Just like everyone else.

Authors don't give us false information. He wouldn't make a character say something for it to be blatantly wrong and never have us find out. There's no evidence at all to argue Yamcha's statement is wrong.

\

What Yamcha said is no different than what Vegeta said about Goku despite not seeing him action seven years later. Yamcha has no clue how strong Tenshinhan is now compared to back then so his statements is literally just as worthless as Vegeta. The only thing left is supplement material such as BoGs and RoF bios and those have incorrect information so they are not 100% infallible. So all we have left is Toriyama agreeing and now that I've seen it again it feels more like he's just agreeing with someone without thinking about it himself. I wonder if he would have said the same thing if it Was Tenshinhan mentioned instead of Kuririn. That interview is questionable, but really the only proof and that''s out of universe, there's no proof Kuririn is superior to Tenshinhan in the actual manga though.

[DieHard]

Tenshinhan isn't Piccolo. Tenshinhan's gains are ambiguous and completely speculative.

Just like everyone else.

Authors don't give us false information. He wouldn't make a character say something for it to be blatantly wrong and never have us find out. There's no evidence at all to argue Yamcha's statement is wrong.

\

What Yamcha said is no different than what Vegeta said about Goku despite not seeing him action seven years later. Yamcha has no clue how strong Tenshinhan is now compared to back then so his statements is literally just as worthless as Vegeta. The only thing left is supplement material such as BoGs and RoF bios and those have incorrect information so they are not 100% infallible. So all we have left is Toriyama agreeing and now that I've seen it again it feels more like he's just agreeing with someone without thinking about it himself. I wonder if he would have said the same thing if it Was Tenshinhan mentioned instead of Kuririn. That interview is questionable, but really the only proof and that''s out of universe, there's no proof Kuririn is superior to Tenshinhan in the actual manga though.

I totally agree.You said it all. while I think tenshinhan is stronger, tehre is no PROOF of that.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

What Yamcha said is no different than what Vegeta said about Goku despite not seeing him action seven years later. Yamcha has no clue how strong Tenshinhan is now compared to back then so his statements is literally just as worthless as Vegeta. The only thing left is supplement material such as BoGs and RoF bios and those have incorrect information so they are not 100% infallible. So all we have left is Toriyama agreeing and now that I've seen it again it feels more like he's just agreeing with someone without thinking about it himself. I wonder if he would have said the same thing if it Was Tenshinhan mentioned instead of Kuririn. That interview is questionable, but really the only proof and that''s out of universe, there's no proof Kuririn is superior to Tenshinhan in the actual manga though.

Vegeta's statement was contradicted, Yamcha's wasn't.

Why would Toriyama make Yamcha say that if it was meant to be blatantly disregarded? Why lie to his readers? That's asinine.

That's your interpretation of the interview and doesn't exactly discredit it.

[lord turbo]

Vegeta's statement was contradicted, Yamcha's wasn't.

Why would Toriyama make Yamcha say that if it was meant to be blatantly disregarded? Why lie to his readers? That's asinine.

That's your interpretation of the interview and doesn't exactly discredit it.

You missed my point entirely, Yamcha is talking out his ass as he has zero clue about Tenshinhan 7 years later, at best his statement would reference Tenshinhan and Kuririn seven years ago. I know what Toriyama was trying to say, the execution was just very poor. Not my fault he can't properly convey things in his own manga. Also, I didn't discredit the interview, just saying its questionable with the way its formed, not that I was throwing it out no matter how poor I think that point was constructed.