Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
- Malik_DBNA
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Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
As a doujinshi author, sometimes characters of mine are labelled Mary Sue/Gary Stu based on one or two things alone. After a while, it gets aggravating when you come with a coherent argument to the contrary and are rebuffed with "doesn't matter. Still a Sue".
My question is, where does the line get drawn? Many canon characters (Son Goku, Superman, Batman, etc) possess qualities of a Sue/Stu, so why can't an original character? Granted, having MULTIPLE Sue/Stu qualities that clearly label them a Sue/Stu are understandable, but when an original character only possesses 2 or 3 Sue/Stu qualities, is it fair to write them off as a straight up Sue/Stu?
Now in my opinion, a few Sue/Stu qualities aren't enough to make a character a Sue/ Stu. Characters that possess these qualities, so long as they possess proper drawbacks and flaws can escape the Mary Sue/Gary Stu label.
Now, conversely, I have seen fan characters who are born SSJ4, reach levels like SSJ20, kill all of their opponents in a few hits, are so powerful that just transforming warps reality, they become omnipotent by inane means (like merging with the Dragon Balls) and grant themselves wishes, are experts in all fighting styles, etc. In comparison to characters like this, I think it further establishes that a few traits are okay, so long as they are logical, organic, and do not grossly affect the story.
What do you guys think?
*POST EDITED, SINCE I AM NOT TRYING TO MAKE THIS ABOUT RIGOR/ DBNA*
My question is, where does the line get drawn? Many canon characters (Son Goku, Superman, Batman, etc) possess qualities of a Sue/Stu, so why can't an original character? Granted, having MULTIPLE Sue/Stu qualities that clearly label them a Sue/Stu are understandable, but when an original character only possesses 2 or 3 Sue/Stu qualities, is it fair to write them off as a straight up Sue/Stu?
Now in my opinion, a few Sue/Stu qualities aren't enough to make a character a Sue/ Stu. Characters that possess these qualities, so long as they possess proper drawbacks and flaws can escape the Mary Sue/Gary Stu label.
Now, conversely, I have seen fan characters who are born SSJ4, reach levels like SSJ20, kill all of their opponents in a few hits, are so powerful that just transforming warps reality, they become omnipotent by inane means (like merging with the Dragon Balls) and grant themselves wishes, are experts in all fighting styles, etc. In comparison to characters like this, I think it further establishes that a few traits are okay, so long as they are logical, organic, and do not grossly affect the story.
What do you guys think?
*POST EDITED, SINCE I AM NOT TRYING TO MAKE THIS ABOUT RIGOR/ DBNA*
Last edited by Malik_DBNA on Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
The term is way overused by people who are too quick to label stuff without actually looking into the context the story provides for the characters that they are labeling.
I see people call Future Trunks a Gary Stu all the time, due to his "unique" hair color (despite Bulma having the same color in the manga), having a sword, and killing Freeza. This is totally ignoring the fact that this is a set up for providing context into how incredibly outclassed everyone else is going to be once the androids show up, and Trunks proceeds to be made a fool of for the rest of the arc.
I see people call Future Trunks a Gary Stu all the time, due to his "unique" hair color (despite Bulma having the same color in the manga), having a sword, and killing Freeza. This is totally ignoring the fact that this is a set up for providing context into how incredibly outclassed everyone else is going to be once the androids show up, and Trunks proceeds to be made a fool of for the rest of the arc.
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Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
I haven't read your comics, but I've noticed that a lot of people--in general, but also especially on the internet--want to be seen as smart and critically minded, which to their meager understanding just means slagging off everything. They see recurring traits that they know they're supposed to hate and apply the appropriate label from TV Tropes without actually thinking about whether or not those traits work in the context of a particular story. They could stop and think, but then they wouldn't have as much time to write scathing critiques on other works. It's a lazy shortcut.
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Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
To me, a character being a Gary-Stu/Mary-Sue depends more on the creator than the character itself. My belief is that the intent of the author/creator is what can make a character a Gary-Stu/Mary-Sue.I think that an uber-powerful character who the most powerful warriors can hardly even touch isn't necessarily a Gary-Stu/Mary-Sue if it's sensible and works well with the story.
I'd even use Rigor as an excellent example. His power exceeds that of Super Saiyajin 4 Gogeta, which, in itself, would lead most to point at him as a Gary-Stu. However, Rigor's attributes and his role in the story not only make sense, but enrich and enhance the story. I'd go as far as to even say that they're necessary for the story of DBNA.
In contrast, let's take a character whose powers and abilities are identical to Rigor's. His power exceeds Super Saiyajin 4 Gogeta's and none of the heroes can so much as touch him. However, this character has no reason for attacking the heroes in the first place aside from being outright evil and simply wanting to, has no personal gain or goal in mind, and subtracts from the quality of the story itself. This character is a powerhouse simply because he is and attacks the heroes simply because he can; he has no ties to nor any history with any of the heroes and has no more reason for attacking them than simply to show off how perfect and invincible a character he is.
I'd even use Rigor as an excellent example. His power exceeds that of Super Saiyajin 4 Gogeta, which, in itself, would lead most to point at him as a Gary-Stu. However, Rigor's attributes and his role in the story not only make sense, but enrich and enhance the story. I'd go as far as to even say that they're necessary for the story of DBNA.
In contrast, let's take a character whose powers and abilities are identical to Rigor's. His power exceeds Super Saiyajin 4 Gogeta's and none of the heroes can so much as touch him. However, this character has no reason for attacking the heroes in the first place aside from being outright evil and simply wanting to, has no personal gain or goal in mind, and subtracts from the quality of the story itself. This character is a powerhouse simply because he is and attacks the heroes simply because he can; he has no ties to nor any history with any of the heroes and has no more reason for attacking them than simply to show off how perfect and invincible a character he is.
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Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
And, so conveniently you fail to mention the worst offender: "he's yet another surviving Saiyan with yet another non-canonical form" (that's different then "related to a canon character" and "incredibly strong"). Those three qualities that you mention aren't that bad as the one you omit. What (in my eyes, of course) makes both Rigor a horrible Gary Stu and DBNA a terrible story is that both are so cliche. I remember reading it for the first time and then - several years later (after the remake) for the second time and always being able to predict what will happen because I simply had to remember other AF stories. So yeah, in my eyes Rigor is one of the worst Gary Stus I've ever had the displeasure of reading about in fan-made stories.Malik_DBNA wrote: For example, my original character Rigor possesses 3 Stu qualities:
1) He is related to a canon character.
2) He has a troubled past (Freudian Excuse/ My life made me evil)
3) He is incredibly strong (his strength at maximum exceeds Beerus/Whis)
Now in my opinion, just these 3 qualities, while common Sue/Stu traits, aren't enough to make him a Stu. Rigor's power comes with intense drawbacks, he's flawed, he loses the battle he's introduced in, etc. I think there are enough character, look, and personality flaws within him that he can escape the Gary stu label.
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Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
Ditto. Sorry to say that...
On completely general level- I don't let anything to stand between me and a good story. Even if I see flaws in writing, characters, research etc I usually let it go if the effect is worth it. I may notice them, discuss about them, but rarely complain. But when the story itself is already dead and in a coffin it's very tempting to find a handful of nails.
On completely general level- I don't let anything to stand between me and a good story. Even if I see flaws in writing, characters, research etc I usually let it go if the effect is worth it. I may notice them, discuss about them, but rarely complain. But when the story itself is already dead and in a coffin it's very tempting to find a handful of nails.
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Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
I did not "conveniently" omit them, I omitted them because I am speaking of Mary Sue/Gary Stu characteristics IN GENERAL. Surviving Saiyans and additional SSJ forms are commonplace among Dragon Ball fanfiction only, and I am speaking ONLY to characteristics that can be applied to doujinshi characters in general, not to specific fandoms.Tzigi wrote: And, so conveniently you fail to mention the worst offender: "he's yet another surviving Saiyan with yet another non-canonical form" (that's different then "related to a canon character" and "incredibly strong"). Those three qualities that you mention aren't that bad as the one you omit. What (in my eyes, of course) makes both Rigor a horrible Gary Stu and DBNA a terrible story is that both are so cliche. I remember reading it for the first time and then - several years later (after the remake) for the second time and always being able to predict what will happen because I simply had to remember other AF stories. So yeah, in my eyes Rigor is one of the worst Gary Stus I've ever had the displeasure of reading about in fan-made stories.
But to speak on those two specific things, yes, I can see where someone might take slight to them. I would especially IF they were traits applied to a character who is meant to be a protagonist, rather than an antagonist. As an antagonist, in my opinion, some leeway is given in the regard to the additional non-canon form. Its fan fiction so almost everything about it is non-canon despite its association with established material. There can also be some leeway given to his being a surviving Saiyan because he is an alternate counterpart to a surviving Saiyan related to Vegeta in the prime timeline: Tarble. But again, this discussion isn't about DBNA. This is about the hurling of calling characters Stus/Sues based on a few traits alone.
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Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
Generally, I would say its a Mary Sue or Gary Sue when things regarding a character are too convenient and exaggerated. However, its subjective when something its too convenient and exaggerated, and the way things in the story are presented influences this a lot.
Last edited by rereboy on Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
Why is this trope always bad?
Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
Jesus... this has to be one of the most mean-spirited comments about a fan-artist's work I've ever had the displeasure of reading. And oddly enough, it comes from someone who constantly defends another long-running fan comic - one that has its own fair share of flaws. I'm not a huge fan of Rigor's background either, but Malik's work doesn't warrant this kind of vitriol. It's one thing to criticize a fan-artist's work and another to insult it.Tzigi wrote:And, so conveniently you fail to mention the worst offender: "he's yet another surviving Saiyan with yet another non-canonical form" (that's different then "related to a canon character" and "incredibly strong"). Those three qualities that you mention aren't that bad as the one you omit. What (in my eyes, of course) makes both Rigor a horrible Gary Stu and DBNA a terrible story is that both are so cliche. I remember reading it for the first time and then - several years later (after the remake) for the second time and always being able to predict what will happen because I simply had to remember other AF stories. So yeah, in my eyes Rigor is one of the worst Gary Stus I've ever had the displeasure of reading about in fan-made stories.
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Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
I can definitely understand where you're going with this Malik. It's one of the main reasons why I'm putting so much work into my Saiyan character. I already know some people are going to call out on certain things (the biggest probably being she can go SSJ3), but that's just the inevitable. No character is perfect after all.
Agreed. You're bound to run into this kind of problem with nearly any sort of Saiyan fan character, but it doesn't mean you should immediately call it as being a Gary Stu/Mary Sue or flat out insult them.ParkerAL wrote:Jesus... this has to be one of the most mean-spirited comments about a fan-artist's work I've ever had the displeasure of reading. And oddly enough, it comes from someone who constantly defends another long-running fan comic - one that has its own fair share of flaws. I'm not a huge fan of Rigor's background either, but Malik's work doesn't warrant this kind of vitriol. It's one thing to criticize a fan-artist's work and another to insult it.Tzigi wrote:And, so conveniently you fail to mention the worst offender: "he's yet another surviving Saiyan with yet another non-canonical form" (that's different then "related to a canon character" and "incredibly strong"). Those three qualities that you mention aren't that bad as the one you omit. What (in my eyes, of course) makes both Rigor a horrible Gary Stu and DBNA a terrible story is that both are so cliche. I remember reading it for the first time and then - several years later (after the remake) for the second time and always being able to predict what will happen because I simply had to remember other AF stories. So yeah, in my eyes Rigor is one of the worst Gary Stus I've ever had the displeasure of reading about in fan-made stories.
Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
People have forgotten what a Mary Sue/Gary Stu actually means and just lazily use it as a way to slag any character they don't like.
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Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
I think when people attack the story or Rigor for being Sue-ish, I think they just have a problem with the story idea not being original enough: Vegeta having a long lost brother who hates him, and is stronger than anything else in the series before him but luckily only shows up when Vegeta has a ghost of a chance to win instead of 10-20 years ago when he would have been soundly destroyed? We've all heard or seen that all before.
Another thing is you clearly favor Rigor. He has a wife, he has children, he has a special devoted to him-You've given him more than Toriyama given his other villains. People confuse Mary Sue for Creator's Pet. People are mislabeling Rigor a Sue, but these are likely the reasons why, and critics are confusing them to be Mary Sue traits.
Another thing is you clearly favor Rigor. He has a wife, he has children, he has a special devoted to him-You've given him more than Toriyama given his other villains. People confuse Mary Sue for Creator's Pet. People are mislabeling Rigor a Sue, but these are likely the reasons why, and critics are confusing them to be Mary Sue traits.
- Malik_DBNA
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Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
You may have a point with that, Foolsgil. I may perhaps show Rigor a bit of favoritism, especially when compared to other villains. In that regard, I believe that the Creator's pet label may be a better fit than a Gary Stu label.FoolsGil wrote:I think when people attack the story or Rigor for being Sue-ish, I think they just have a problem with the story idea not being original enough: Vegeta having a long lost brother who hates him, and is stronger than anything else in the series before him but luckily only shows up when Vegeta has a ghost of a chance to win instead of 10-20 years ago when he would have been soundly destroyed? We've all heard or seen that all before.
Another thing is you clearly favor Rigor. He has a wife, he has children, he has a special devoted to him-You've given him more than Toriyama given his other villains. People confuse Mary Sue for Creator's Pet. People are mislabeling Rigor a Sue, but these are likely the reasons why, and critics are confusing them to be Mary Sue traits.
The truth is, in regards to his backstory special, is that it was Inspired mainly by Dragon Ball Minus. I have wanted to do an alternate DB story that wasn't a post GT story that took place In the past for a while, and some of my fans constantly inquired about Rigor's backstory, so it seemed like a good fit (More than a few people have told me they enjoy the History of Rigor story more than the main story).
But I digress, back to the topic at hand lol
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Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
Because having Mary Sue/Gary Stu can most of the time, limit the quality of your story telling. If the main character is flawless in every way, there is no room to develop said character. And in the end, character development is the most important of any story, because if you can't develop your character well, nobody will care for him/her. And having a main character that nobody cares for, is a writer's worst nightmare.Regarder wrote:Why is this trope always bad?
Spoiler:
Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
So, it's mostly bad sure. I'm thinking that a smart writer could make the story revolve around other character's relation to the Mary Sue/Gary Stu.Lord Beerus wrote:Because having Mary Sue/Gary Stu can most of the time, limit the quality of your story telling. If the main character is flawless in every way, there is no room to develop said character. And in the end, character development is the most important of any story, because if you can't develop your character well, nobody will care for him/her. And having a main character that nobody cares for, is a writer's worst nightmare.Regarder wrote:Why is this trope always bad?
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Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
It's called Superman. And when well-written, it works extremely well.Regarder wrote:So, it's mostly bad sure. I'm thinking that a smart writer could make the story revolve around other character's relation to the Mary Sue/Gary Stu.Lord Beerus wrote:Because having Mary Sue/Gary Stu can most of the time, limit the quality of your story telling. If the main character is flawless in every way, there is no room to develop said character. And in the end, character development is the most important of any story, because if you can't develop your character well, nobody will care for him/her. And having a main character that nobody cares for, is a writer's worst nightmare.Regarder wrote:Why is this trope always bad?
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Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
I don't know how a superhuman main villain cannot be a Gary Stu. That is pretty much the main requirement to be hired.
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Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
Pretty much what makes the entire comment so ironic. But this isn't about favoritism....oh wait it kinda is...ParkerAL wrote:Jesus... this has to be one of the most mean-spirited comments about a fan-artist's work I've ever had the displeasure of reading. And oddly enough, it comes from someone who constantly defends another long-running fan comic - one that has its own fair share of flaws. I'm not a huge fan of Rigor's background either, but Malik's work doesn't warrant this kind of vitriol. It's one thing to criticize a fan-artist's work and another to insult it.Tzigi wrote:And, so conveniently you fail to mention the worst offender: "he's yet another surviving Saiyan with yet another non-canonical form" (that's different then "related to a canon character" and "incredibly strong"). Those three qualities that you mention aren't that bad as the one you omit. What (in my eyes, of course) makes both Rigor a horrible Gary Stu and DBNA a terrible story is that both are so cliche. I remember reading it for the first time and then - several years later (after the remake) for the second time and always being able to predict what will happen because I simply had to remember other AF stories. So yeah, in my eyes Rigor is one of the worst Gary Stus I've ever had the displeasure of reading about in fan-made stories.
Well a sue has many many traits now a days. It's hard to not have a few of those traits in a character. I can personally say I'm not much of a Rigor fan, but am extremely intrigued about Aladjinn, whom is basically like the creator of Boo...though that might have been changed now...since Toriyama changed things. Dunno. Anyways it's easier to have a villain have these qualities than a hero. A villain is almost impossible to be perfect, as if they were, they couldn't be defeated. Unless the story literally ends with bad guy wins, then maybe changes his or her ways.
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Re: Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion
Aladjinn is Boo's father. Malik retconned it right after the interview was released.dbzfan7 wrote:Pretty much what makes the entire comment so ironic. But this isn't about favoritism....oh wait it kinda is...ParkerAL wrote:Jesus... this has to be one of the most mean-spirited comments about a fan-artist's work I've ever had the displeasure of reading. And oddly enough, it comes from someone who constantly defends another long-running fan comic - one that has its own fair share of flaws. I'm not a huge fan of Rigor's background either, but Malik's work doesn't warrant this kind of vitriol. It's one thing to criticize a fan-artist's work and another to insult it.Tzigi wrote:And, so conveniently you fail to mention the worst offender: "he's yet another surviving Saiyan with yet another non-canonical form" (that's different then "related to a canon character" and "incredibly strong"). Those three qualities that you mention aren't that bad as the one you omit. What (in my eyes, of course) makes both Rigor a horrible Gary Stu and DBNA a terrible story is that both are so cliche. I remember reading it for the first time and then - several years later (after the remake) for the second time and always being able to predict what will happen because I simply had to remember other AF stories. So yeah, in my eyes Rigor is one of the worst Gary Stus I've ever had the displeasure of reading about in fan-made stories.
Well a sue has many many traits now a days. It's hard to not have a few of those traits in a character. I can personally say I'm not much of a Rigor fan, but am extremely intrigued about Aladjinn, whom is basically like the creator of Boo...though that might have been changed now...since Toriyama changed things. Dunno. Anyways it's easier to have a villain have these qualities than a hero. A villain is almost impossible to be perfect, as if they were, they couldn't be defeated. Unless the story literally ends with bad guy wins, then maybe changes his or her ways.
I think especially Rigor and Aladjinn are the two interesting villains of New Age - and I am interested in what the Bounty Hunters are like. Travel around just to hunt for some Bounty chocolate bars (lol). I mean, I aso like Zen Buu and Ksii/XXI in Multiverse but MUltiverse is lacking the story and only is there for art and some humor in most cases for me. It lacks a lot. New Age is - in my opinion - the best one out there and Rigor and Aladjinn having some Stu characteristics is not a problem for me. This is a fan comic about a Japanese fantasy series, after all. I mean, I think Gogeta being almost dominated by Rigor seems a bit much but Rigor is the New Age version of Broly, a legend that works different than others. And I guess especially after Freezer's return we can be okay with such power-ups even more. In my opinion. A classic Dragon Ball stu I don't like is Xicor. But only because I don't like his design so even in that case it is not really the writing but more those demonic black face and hand spikes that seem so inappropriate to me. Also those two black bangs.Just a white-haired character would have been enough. As you can see, it is not even the writing here.
If a stuesque character ruins something then it is bad writing. But bringing in sucha character is not automatically bad writing. Just like many people think a Deus ex Machina is bad writing. But it is also not always. I also think in certain situations a character like this - they do not have all those characteristics - is fitting. Ultimate main villains of a long story should definitely have a overwhelming power and probably some story connection that you did not think of even though it is about stuff that was always seemingly known by you. Surviving Saiyans? Why not? Super Saiyan 5? Why not? I think the actual probem of this is how people respond to this cliche after it has become so popular and therefore repetetive in the overall collective of works, not that this cliche itself would be a bad idea.
Except even expanding an idea means adding something new. So even if it is not something new-new and instead related to the idea it is still something new that is added. Adding a Super Saiyan form is expanding an idea by adding something new to that idea. It is not "new-new" when it comes to the concept of "Saiyan transformations" but simply an expansion of the transformation list. So yes, some ideas are something completely new and probably should not be mentioned before something else is done but it still is always something new that did not exist before. And complaining about Saiyan transformations is a bad idea in this context because just bringing in a new one is not just an introduction of something new or even just recycled but also an idea that already exists and is expanded.Tzigi wrote:
As just one last thing I wanted to remind you of Sanderson's Third Law: "Expand what you already have before you add something new.". In DB we've got - depending on how we look at the canon - from 3 to 6 SSJ forms (SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSJ4, SSJ God, Legendary SSJ). Adding any more is violating this law. Using those forms creatively isn't. Just think about the ASSJ2->3 switch that Vegeta and Future Trunks use respecitely in Toyble's AF and DBM. That's creative and interesting. Including a new SSJ form is plain bad storytelling. If we take GT into consideration, we know that overuse of Dragon Balls makes Shadow Dragons appear. Making new Shadow Dragons based upon addditional wishes is expanding on this idea and that's what Youngjiji's AF does. Adding a new set of Dragon Balls is also violating Sanderson's Third Law. Do you see the difference now?
Last edited by Cetra on Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:00 pm, edited 5 times in total.
"Citation needed."
"too lazy
feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"
"too lazy
feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"











