Doujinshi Mary Sue/Gary Stu discussion

[rereboy]

I hate pretty much everything about Rigor. No offense. The rest is good.

[Tzigi]

And, so conveniently you fail to mention the worst offender: "he's yet another surviving Saiyan with yet another non-canonical form" (that's different then "related to a canon character" and "incredibly strong"). Those three qualities that you mention aren't that bad as the one you omit. What (in my eyes, of course) makes both Rigor a horrible Gary Stu and DBNA a terrible story is that both are so cliche. I remember reading it for the first time and then - several years later (after the remake) for the second time and always being able to predict what will happen because I simply had to remember other AF stories. So yeah, in my eyes Rigor is one of the worst Gary Stus I've ever had the displeasure of reading about in fan-made stories.

Jesus... this has to be one of the most mean-spirited comments about a fan-artist's work I've ever had the displeasure of reading. And oddly enough, it comes from someone who constantly defends another long-running fan comic - one that has its own fair share of flaws. I'm not a huge fan of Rigor's background either, but Malik's work doesn't warrant this kind of vitriol. It's one thing to criticize a fan-artist's work and another to insult it.

I only defend Multiverse where I feel it should be defended (i.e. where people start criticising it based on hearsay [supposed Freeza nerf based upon a mistranslation and the like] or they don't understand the technical constraints and other such decisions) - there are many, many things I dislike about Multiverse (the last special chapter deserves here a special mention but many other points as well - overuse of u16, the Babidi special and so on) but - much as with DBNA - I don't speak about them unless the conversation demands it. I don't go into the DBNA thread to post every time how I feel its story to be a boring rip-off (first of Radditz then of Majin Vegeta/Baby Vegeta) but when someone frankly demands an opinion, I don't see any reason why I shouldn't state mine. And my opinion about DBNA is that apart from the passable artwork, it has nothing more to recommend itself.

As just one last thing I wanted to remind you of Sanderson's Third Law: "Expand what you already have before you add something new.". In DB we've got - depending on how we look at the canon - from 3 to 6 SSJ forms (SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSJ4, SSJ God, Legendary SSJ). Adding any more is violating this law. Using those forms creatively isn't. Just think about the ASSJ2->3 switch that Vegeta and Future Trunks use respecitely in Toyble's AF and DBM. That's creative and interesting. Including a new SSJ form is plain bad storytelling. If we take GT into consideration, we know that overuse of Dragon Balls makes Shadow Dragons appear. Making new Shadow Dragons based upon addditional wishes is expanding on this idea and that's what Youngjiji's AF does. Adding a new set of Dragon Balls is also violating Sanderson's Third Law. Do you see the difference now?

[Malik_DBNA]

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I was under the assumption that "expanding" and "adding" were somewhat synonymous.
Regardless, there is a simple reason why there is a new SSJ form and a new set of Dragon Balls: a pattern established throught the series' entire run.
Each Dragon Ball series, including GT, follows a pattern of transformations in regards to Saiyans, as well as introducing a new set of Dragon Balls.

Saiyan transformations by series:
DRAGON BALL - Oozaru
DRAGON BALL Z -Super Saiyan 1-3 / Golden SSJ forms, SSJ God
DRAGON BALL GT - Golden Oozaru, Super Saiyan 4 / half-Oozaru SSJ

Like it or not, transformations are part of the Dragon world lore. DBNA adds 1 transformation, then exapnds on SSJ4, saying that the form can be pushed to greater degrees of power.

DRAGON BALLS BY SERIES:
DRAGON BALL - Original Dragon Balls
DRAGON BALL Z - Namekian Dragon Balls
DRAGON BALL GT - Black Star Dragon Balls

DBNA again follows this established pattern by touching on the idea that if Kami and The nameless Namekian could create Dragon Balls, it can be reasonably assumed that Demon King Piccolo could as well.

I also feel that you've somehow singled my series out as having no redeemable story qualities, while bringing up two series that commit some of the same "offenses" as I do.

But again, I AM NOT trying to make this thread about DBNA. Besides this particular line of discussion, I feel that some of you have brought up good points about Sues/Stus. Context seems to be the determining factor in truly distinguishing between a sue / stu and a character that is just simply not liked by someone

[Dbzfan94]

And, so conveniently you fail to mention the worst offender: "he's yet another surviving Saiyan with yet another non-canonical form" (that's different then "related to a canon character" and "incredibly strong"). Those three qualities that you mention aren't that bad as the one you omit. What (in my eyes, of course) makes both Rigor a horrible Gary Stu and DBNA a terrible story is that both are so cliche. I remember reading it for the first time and then - several years later (after the remake) for the second time and always being able to predict what will happen because I simply had to remember other AF stories. So yeah, in my eyes Rigor is one of the worst Gary Stus I've ever had the displeasure of reading about in fan-made stories.

Jesus... this has to be one of the most mean-spirited comments about a fan-artist's work I've ever had the displeasure of reading. And oddly enough, it comes from someone who constantly defends another long-running fan comic - one that has its own fair share of flaws. I'm not a huge fan of Rigor's background either, but Malik's work doesn't warrant this kind of vitriol. It's one thing to criticize a fan-artist's work and another to insult it.

I was thinking the same thing.

[Saiga]

I definitely think the terms Mary Sue/Gary Stu are overused and misused, and on top of that they're really hard to define. They've evolved beyond their original meaning - partly from misuse, and partly out of necessity for how stiff the term was.

As rereboy said, it's subjective. And that's going to be the cause of a lot of disagreement and argument.

But I'm not one who thinks the terms are useless just due to the misuse. Everyone's personal definition will vary but we'd have to throw out a lot of terms if that was enough to make them unusable.

People have forgotten what a Mary Sue/Gary Stu actually means and just lazily use it as a way to slag any character they don't like.

This is certainly true, but it's not like genuine Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters don't exist. And people will use this kind of comment to defend genuine Sues purely because they like them.

It goes both ways.

Now, since the opener has really made this about Rigor, I'll weigh in on that issue as well:

He's a total Sue. He checks so many boxes, and the flaws he has do little to off-set this. I don't buy into your justification at all, Malik, and feel the drawbacks you chose to give him actually work against you. Making Rigor lose to the strain of his own power might seem like it's showing that he's not too powerful, but it really has the opposite effect. Rigor's so damn powerful that the only way he can be done in is by his own drawbacks. This is only relevant because of a combination of the stasis pod and Rigor being an idiot and using his full power too soon.

Sure, it shows he's not perfect to make such mistakes, and it's common for villains to be partially brought down by their mistakes, but it's also diminishing the heroes' efforts and makes them look bad. You even had Goku and Vegeta point it out that it mostly wasn't them.

So despite it being a drawback, a flaw, it really serves more to preserve how great Rigor was. The heroes only won because Rigor was impatient, they can't compare to Rigor if not for that, etc.

It's fairly uncommon in Dragon Ball for it to come down to that sort of thing. Usually the heroes triumph on their own merits, so it really stands out when Rigor's defeat is treated much differently.

Even if it would be argued that Rigor isn't a Sue for some technicality or overly strict definition, I'd still call him a poorly written fanfic character for all the reasons already mentioned. His relation to Vegeta, his Saiyan survivor status, absurd power, general uniqueness... almost everything that makes Rigor Rigor is a common Mary Sue/poorly written fanfic character trait. There's no creativity in him, at all.

Hell, I created Rigor when I was nine. Only his name was Gekara (I have no idea) and he was Vegeta's secret cousin instead of half-brother. Same deal, comes to Earth, super special awesome, goes beyond Super Saiyan 4, doesn't truly get defeated, etc.

And I'm not the only one to do it. Sue or not, Rigor's been done a thousand times. I'm not trying to be mean, or spiteful, but this is just honestly how I feel about the whole thing. Not a well-written or interesting character at all, and I don't think your defence really works.

But, at the end of it, it honestly doesn't matter if the term Mary Sue is useless. It's not going to slow me down at all - at the end of the day, I'm going to call a shit character out for being shit, regardless of whether I can use a handy term for it or not.

[Malik_DBNA]

I definitely think the terms Mary Sue/Gary Stu are overused and misused, and on top of that they're really hard to define. They've evolved beyond their original meaning - partly from misuse, and partly out of necessity for how stiff the term was.

As rereboy said, it's subjective. And that's going to be the cause of a lot of disagreement and argument.

But I'm not one who thinks the terms are useless just due to the misuse. Everyone's personal definition will vary but we'd have to throw out a lot of terms if that was enough to make them unusable.

People have forgotten what a Mary Sue/Gary Stu actually means and just lazily use it as a way to slag any character they don't like.

This is certainly true, but it's not like genuine Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters don't exist. And people will use this kind of comment to defend genuine Sues purely because they like them.

It goes both ways.

Now, since the opener has really made this about Rigor, I'll weigh in on that issue as well:

He's a total Sue. He checks so many boxes, and the flaws he has do little to off-set this. I don't buy into your justification at all, Malik, and feel the drawbacks you chose to give him actually work against you. Making Rigor lose to the strain of his own power might seem like it's showing that he's not too powerful, but it really has the opposite effect. Rigor's so damn powerful that the only way he can be done in is by his own drawbacks. This is only relevant because of a combination of the stasis pod and Rigor being an idiot and using his full power too soon.

Sure, it shows he's not perfect to make such mistakes, and it's common for villains to be partially brought down by their mistakes, but it's also diminishing the heroes' efforts and makes them look bad. You even had Goku and Vegeta point it out that it mostly wasn't them.

So despite it being a drawback, a flaw, it really serves more to preserve how great Rigor was. The heroes only won because Rigor was impatient, they can't compare to Rigor if not for that, etc.

It's fairly uncommon in Dragon Ball for it to come down to that sort of thing. Usually the heroes triumph on their own merits, so it really stands out when Rigor's defeat is treated much differently.

Even if it would be argued that Rigor isn't a Sue for some technicality or overly strict definition, I'd still call him a poorly written fanfic character for all the reasons already mentioned. His relation to Vegeta, his Saiyan survivor status, absurd power, general uniqueness... almost everything that makes Rigor Rigor is a common Mary Sue/poorly written fanfic character trait. There's no creativity in him, at all.

Hell, I created Rigor when I was nine. Only his name was Gekara (I have no idea) and he was Vegeta's secret cousin instead of half-brother. Same deal, comes to Earth, super special awesome, goes beyond Super Saiyan 4, doesn't truly get defeated, etc.

And I'm not the only one to do it. Sue or not, Rigor's been done a thousand times. I'm not trying to be mean, or spiteful, but this is just honestly how I feel about the whole thing. Not a well-written or interesting character at all, and I don't think your defence really works.

But, at the end of it, it honestly doesn't matter if the term Mary Sue is useless. It's not going to slow me down at all - at the end of the day, I'm going to call a shit character out for being shit, regardless of whether I can use a handy term for it or not.

You brought up a good point about how the loose and stiff nature of the term has made it now a term based truly on subjectivity.

As for Rigor, again, I'm not trying to make the thread about him or DBNA. I brought him up as an example. I'm not even trying to deny that there is favoritism to him or that he doesn't possess any traits of a Sue/Stu, or even say that I don't see how or why he can be seen as one. I think the division this thread has shown has shown that he can be viewed as one to some, not to others, further enforcing the subjective nature of the intended subject of this thread.

[TheGmGoken]

This isn't a DBNA topic guys. Pretty sure it clear.
But I'll mention Rigor since I'm going to pick my favorite series.

Kronos from DBNG - A demon who wants to destroy the otherworld. He have powers similar to Miira or Towa. Such as raising powers, aggressive, and in SOME cases controlling people to improve his power.

Rigor - Everything that's been said already been said. But he's a Mary sae with GOOD writing. Idgaf if you're a MS. As long as writing is good. Db itself is not original.

Aladjinn(Shocked no one brought him up) -

I'm not sure what's a Mary Sue in Dbz.

[Skar]

Rigor - Everything that's been said already been said. But he's a Mary sae with GOOD writing. Idgaf if you're a MS. As long as writing is good. Db itself is not original.

What do you consider "good writing" and what differentiates Rigor from the hundreds of other fan characters with an almost identical backstory? I think all these characters just blend together.

[TheGmGoken]

Rigor - Everything that's been said already been said. But he's a Mary sae with GOOD writing. Idgaf if you're a MS. As long as writing is good. Db itself is not original.

What do you consider "good writing" and what differentiates Rigor from the hundreds of other fan characters with an almost identical backstory? I think all these characters just blend together.

Umm identical back stories has nothing to do with the writing. Malik wrote it good. Others did not. Quite simple. I don't even care if a character a Sue or not.

[Skar]

Umm identical back stories has nothing to do with the writing. Malik wrote it good. Others did not. Quite simple. I don't even care if a character a Sue or not.

Sorry I don't follow. The quality should be on the same level if there's almost no difference between them. What makes one better than the other when they're essentially the same other than their power level?

[BlazingBarrrager]

Rigor - Everything that's been said already been said. But he's a Mary sae with GOOD writing. Idgaf if you're a MS. As long as writing is good. Db itself is not original.

What do you consider "good writing" and what differentiates Rigor from the hundreds of other fan characters with an almost identical backstory? I think all these characters just blend together.

Umm identical back stories has nothing to do with the writing. Malik wrote it good. Others did not. Quite simple. I don't even care if a character a Sue or not.

Agreed. Despite Rigor being a Stu in some aspects, he is still a good character in a well written story. As I said before, nothing is perfect. Another plus side is that Malik openly admits that his character has some Stu qualities. A lot of other artists who do this tend to...get offended.

[TheGmGoken]

Umm identical back stories has nothing to do with the writing. Malik wrote it good. Others did not. Quite simple. I don't even care if a character a Sue or not.

Sorry I don't follow. The quality should be on the same level if there's almost no difference between them. What makes one better than the other when they're essentially the same other than their power level?

Quick question since if origin stories are identical (or almost no difference) and ignoring the quality.

What's your opinion on Son Goku after Dragonball minus?
What's your opinion on Ultimate Peter Parker vs Mainstream Peter Parker?
What's your opinion of superheroes who got their powers from convenient radiation, weather, or waste?
What's your opinion on TV shows of a poor family?

Since all indentical stories have same quality of writing

[Skar]

Quick question since if origin stories are identical (or almost no difference) and ignoring the quality.

What's your opinion on Son Goku after Dragonball minus?
What's your opinion on Ultimate Peter Parker vs Mainstream Peter Parker?
What's your opinion of superheroes who got their powers from convenient radiation, weather, or waste?
What's your opinion on TV shows of a poor family?

Since all indentical stories have same quality of writing

I'm not sure if you can tell the difference between an inspiration and an almost direct clone of another character. It's no secret that Goku was inspired by Superman even before Dragonball Minus. Some fans still prefer Superman over Goku but they actually give their reasons why. There's only so many ways a normal human can get super powers in a comic book but the characters have different motives, powers, or goals. If a "new" character is almost identical to a previous character then his story probably won't be considered good without the person explaining why.

So far you haven't told me why you think Rigor has good writing or what makes him better than the hundreds of other OCs with an almost identical backstory. When I first read New Age my initial reaction was "This guy reminds me of Broly but I'm not surprised since a lot of OCs remind me of Broly". That was it. I didn't even think he was a bad character just that he doesn't stand out among the rest. He seems like an average and plain OC to me. When I first read AF I thought "This guy looks a lot like Broly but a Saiyan hybrid with a race other than humans is new". I didn't think Xicor was an incredible but he was different. I'm asking you why you think Rigor is better than the rest? Is it because he had a similar backstory to Broly but not completely insane? Is it because he was so overpowered that he almost killed SSJ4 Gogeta and only lost due to his own weakness? Is it because he wanted to kill Vegeta and didn't know that Vegeta was already killed twice and wished back?

[TheGmGoken]

If a "new" character is almost identical to a previous character then his story probably won't be considered good without the person explaining why.

So far you haven't told me why you think Rigor has good writing or what makes him better than the hundreds of other OCs with an almost identical backstory.

Only answered the Goku one?

What's your opinion on Ultimate Peter Parker vs Mainstream Peter Parker?
What's your opinion of superheroes who got their powers from convenient radiation, weather, or waste?
What's your opinion on TV shows of a poor family?

Some are direct clones with clearly different writing.

Well..Malik outright stated he's the LSSJ not Broly. So...you shouldn't be shocked. He also got sue qualities he said. So...what'd you expect?

I believe Malik edited the part out of what I love bout Rigor (not saying he's the best character). Oh well. The topic ain't bout Rigor which been discussed for the entire thread. It's about Sues qualities. Besides if Golden Freeza is being accepted then no shame to Rigor. .


Another sue quality - unique hair colors

[Skar]

Only answered the Goku one?

Did you read the entire comment?
"There's only so many ways a normal human can get super powers in a comic book but the characters have different motives, powers, or goals. If a "new" character is almost identical to a previous character then his story probably won't be considered good without the person explaining why."
That was about many comic book characters having similar backstories and getting their powers from radiation or some freak accident. There are many generic comic book heroes and villains but if someone wants to argue that they had good writing or better than the rest then you would expect them to
The other examples are pretty self-explanatory. Ultimate Peter Parker is supposed to be an alternate version of Peter Parker like the many others in the DC and Marvel multiverse. They're not pretending it's a new character just an alternate version of an existing character and showing how he would've turned out if X happened in his universe. A lot of TV shows feature similar tropes including many sitcoms and crime shows. Many of these barely last one season or cancelled early because they're too unoriginal and a copy of a better known show. If they had anything that helps them standout among the rest then they would've had a better chance of lasting a whole season or more. Now could you answer the original question of why you think Rigor has good writing compared to the others based on the same trope? Rigor just seems like a generic character to me so not worse or better than any of the others.

I believe Malik edited the part out of what I love bout Rigor (not saying he's the best character). Oh well. The topic ain't bout Rigor which been discussed for the entire thread. It's about Sues qualities. Besides if Golden Freeza is being accepted then no shame to Rigor. .

I'm not a fan of Frieza coming back in the next movie. It seems like a major asspull that he can reach SSJ God tier in a few months of training but if Toriyama feels he's a great prodigy then sure why not. I guess in comparison I would rather see a former villain get wished back and gain a new transformation than another Saiyan attacking the Earth or Gero's computer building another super android. A lot of DBZ characters have Stu traits but I think the problem with OCs is that many pop up out of no where with no explanation for their power. Rigor is explained to be a legendary mutated Saiyan but he just seems way too powerful. In DBM Broly is stronger than Vegetto but he's a brain dead berserker. He's not an incredible or skilled martial artist that trained to become that powerful and more of an obstacle or wild animal. In base he was shown to be a calm and quiet guy so LSSJ was more of a curse that he had the misfortune of being born with than something he could use to his advantage. For me I don't care much if the character has a few Stu traits as long as they're somewhat memorable. I've read a lot of fanfics and fan comics but I can barely remember any of the OCs because very few stood out. I remember you recommended a story that was basically a retelling of early Dragonball with Pan and Goku's descendent instead of Bulma and kid Goku. I can't even remember that kid's name or what went on in that story because my memory of it just blends with early Dragonball saga that it was based on.

[TheGmGoken]

Anyways ..onto non DBNA Stuff

Malik who are your favorite characters and favorite Mary sues in any fiction?

[ParkerAL]

Anyways ..onto non DBNA Stuff

Malik who are your favorite characters and favorite Mary sues in any fiction?

I sure as heck know which one mine is.

Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way (aka Enoby) is the main character and Mary Sue of My Immortal. Arguably the worst female character in fanfiction history, she is a seventeen-year-old "goffic" vampire witch who attends Hogwarts School in England. She is the girlfriend of Draco Malfoy and also one of the few characters in the story not "based on" a canon Harry Potter character.

The best mary sue characters are the ones written so ridiculously over the top that I can't help but find them hilarious. "Enoby" definitely fits the bill.

[Dbzfan94]

Anyways ..onto non DBNA Stuff

Malik who are your favorite characters and favorite Mary sues in any fiction?

I sure as heck know which one mine is.

Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way (aka Enoby) is the main character and Mary Sue of My Immortal. Arguably the worst female character in fanfiction history, she is a seventeen-year-old "goffic" vampire witch who attends Hogwarts School in England. She is the girlfriend of Draco Malfoy and also one of the few characters in the story not "based on" a canon Harry Potter character.

The best mary sue characters are the ones written so ridiculously over the top that I can't help but find them hilarious. "Enoby" definitely fits the bill.

My Immortal is just as bad (and by bad I mean comedy gold) as the fanfics by Peter Chimarea,

[BlazingBarrrager]

My friends there are two franchises that top everything we've seen in this thread: My Little Pony, and Sonic the Hedgehog. Seriously enter your name and Sonic OC into Google. You'll find it hilarious.

[Triforce Master]

I always figured a Mary Sue/Gary Stu was someone who is typically flawless and too powerful for anyone to handle and serves no real point other than to show just how powerful this character was by defeating previous villains or heroes related to the protagonist or the protagonist themselves, having little to no effort with dealing with the aforementioned types of characters.

I mean if you don't mind me asking what are some of the qualities that make character X a sue/stu?