Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[Lord Beerus]

Vegeta attained SS by training. Goku attained SS2 and 3 off screen training, are they disgusting too?

Yeah, but Goku trained for 7 f**king YEARS... That's not even close to someone who was defeated and killed by a untrained SSJ and with only 4 MONTHS of training got power enough to battle a former Super Saiyan God

Does anyone ever think maybe, just maybe, Freeza's race are genetically superior and more adept than the Saiyans? I mean forget tapping into latent power or unlocked potential, Freeza's race can freaking create their own transformations. That should give you an idea of just how incredibly gifted Freeza's race is.

[rereboy]

Does anyone ever think maybe, just maybe, Freeza's race are genetically superior and more adept than the Saiyans? I mean forget tapping into latent power or unlocked potential, Freeza's race can freaking create their own transformations. That should give you an idea of just how incredibly gifted Freeza's race is.

Not really, Goten and Trunks got much stronger than Freeza as little kids without even training, just playing around. Goten didn't even know how to fly. So, however gifted Freeza is, Goten and Trunks are even more gifted. And yet they didn't skyrocketed in power to Beerus levels with a bit of training. Heck, even a fusion of these two greater prodigies than Freeza is only Super Buu level with his SSJ3.

[Saiga]

Does anyone ever think maybe, just maybe, Freeza's race are genetically superior and more adept than the Saiyans? I mean forget tapping into latent power or unlocked potential, Freeza's race can freaking create their own transformations. That should give you an idea of just how incredibly gifted Freeza's race is.

No... it really doesn't. The transformations are used to suppress their strength, so the creation of them isn't nearly as impressive as if they had the ability to make themselves stronger out of nothing.

And the reason I don't think that they're genetically superior is that it's never come up before, and Freeza's race has never been explored. All these justifications and ideas are only coming when they need something to make Freeza all powerful, and that doesn't sit right with me.

[Doctor.]

Are we somehow forgetting that Piccolo got over 100x stronger in 3 years? Not a Saiyan, not Freeza, Piccolo.

[rereboy]

Are we somehow forgetting that Piccolo got over 100x stronger in 3 years? Not a Saiyan, not Freeza, Piccolo.

Piccolo at that point was no longer just one Namekian, he was a fusion of two. Therefore, his potential was very different than just his old potential. And he only jumped from Freeza second form to higher than #20 but fodder to #17 and #18. He needed yet another fusion just to reach #17's and #18's power.

[Saiga]

Are we somehow forgetting that Piccolo got over 100x stronger in 3 years? Not a Saiyan, not Freeza, Piccolo.

We don't even know how strong he actually got, but... I'm not happy with that either. That's definitely a weak moment in the manga to me, and so comparing the movie's developments to that doesn't really do much to defend it in my eyes.

[Doctor.]

Are we somehow forgetting that Piccolo got over 100x stronger in 3 years? Not a Saiyan, not Freeza, Piccolo.

Piccolo at that point was no longer just one Namekian, he was a fusion of two. Therefore, his potential was very different than just his old potential. And he only jumped from Freeza second form to higher than #20 but fodder to #17 and #18. He needed yet another fusion just to reach #17's and #18's power.

And Freeza is already a mutant born with an abnormally large power, whilst being a prodigy on top of that. For the record, I'm not saying I agree with the route Toriyama is taking, I'm saying that increasing his power exponentially with training isn't impossible for Freeza.

Anyway, I'm sure we'll get refrained by the mod team if we continue this discussion.

[TheGmGoken]

Hey guys. We have a topic strictly for power debates
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=29453

Make sure to discuss power debates here and not flood the topic!

[rereboy]

And Freeza is already a mutant born with an abnormally large power, whilst being a prodigy on top of that. For the record, I'm not saying I agree with the route Toriyama is taking, I'm saying that increasing his power exponentially with training isn't impossible for Freeza.

Anyway, I'm sure we'll get refrained by the mod team if we continue this discussion.

And, like I said, Goten and Trunks put Freeza's prodigy status to shame by being shown to be even greater prodigies, already stronger than Freeza while they are little kids, without any real training, just playing around.

[Retan]

That's only with Transformations though, no one but Beerus, Whis, and Buu are naturally stronger then Freeza.

[RandomGuy96]

Are we somehow forgetting that Piccolo got over 100x stronger in 3 years? Not a Saiyan, not Freeza, Piccolo.

How is Piccolo gaining a hundred times more power in 5 years (which most people consider silly, even though he had sparring partners) relevant to Freeza gaining something like a million times more power in 4 months? Or, more importantly, the various plot holes and retroactive character shifts that such an explanation brings?

That's only with Transformations though, no one but Beerus, Whis, and Buu are naturally stronger then Freeza.

Dabra and Kaioshin are. There's no indication either of them trained, though they could have. On the other hand, there are several indications that Freeza trained. So even saying that everyone besides those guys is naturally weaker than him is really reaching. Goten and Trunks were many times more powerful than him at the very beginning of the Buu arc, despite the fact that we have every reason to believe that they trained less. He's way older than them, he knows tons of ki techniques while they don't, he's a skilled hand to hand and aerial fighter while they're not, and he sparred with his father (and got some dust on him) while they didn't.

Heck, even if we were to accept that explanation for Freeza's strength, why is everyone so willing to accept it just on a narrative level? Aren't these the same people who admire the supposed moral that hard work can triumph natural talent with enough dedication? This movie shits all over that. Not that I ever thought the story made such a point, but a lot of people clearly did.

Perhaps I am putting words into people's mouths a bit, so for that I apologize - but when all one does is harp endlessly about a fact, in this case the fact being that the background crew is going to take on a swarm of soldiers, with no other meat to it, then I'm left to assume one of two things. 1) They'd actually prefer to see something as boring as the stronger people just one-shotting people to preserve their notions of power levels. 2) They'd prefer not to see anything new at all. If it's the former, then I repeat, that just seems like a boring scenario to me. If it's the latter (which it's quickly seeming to be), then perhaps it's best they do just that - ignore the new stuff if all it's going to do is irritate them.

But I don't see why you have to go with any of those assumptions. Both of them seem like a stretch, or a convenience to dismiss other people's opinions. I think it's far more likely to be number 3 in all cases: they want new material without the logical problems they're presenting. That's me.

I'd love new material if it was something I could actually enjoy. That's why I can never ignore the new material, even without any expectations, because I'll definitely never get what I want if I don't look for it.

I mean, seriously, I get it. There's plenty of stuff not to like about the new stuff, and a lot of people are latching on to that and not seeing any of the good stuff that's come along with it. Or maybe even the 'good' stuff isn't good to them to begin with. And that's fine! But do we really, really need to hear about it every time new information comes out, especially when it's just the same information we already knew just stated again? There is absolutely no need to continually harp on things and turn this entire thread into a cesspool of negativity, which is all it is accomplishing, and making it hard for people that are looking forward to the film to do so. Is it so hard to just go 'nah this isn't for me' and move on?

Weeeeell I feel you can say the exact same thing for defending things as well. How much is that needed compared to criticizing them to begin with? Because there are plenty of posts that fall into the same trap the complaints are: they're repeating things already said, without actually bringing in something new. You'll get a whole bunch of "Piccolo shouldn't be getting his ass kicked" posts that don't bring any new argument or ideas forward, but then you've got just as many "it's not farfetched at all, you're just upset because of your headcanon!" posts that likewise don't differ enough to be new in any way. It seems to cut both ways just as much.

I get that it's a bummer trying to be hyped for something when other people won't buy into it, but those who are critical are also finding enjoyment discussing these perceived flaws with others and it's a real bummer when people don't appear to allow that happening. And I don't even mean finding enjoyment in a perverse "hah I knew this would suck way", but being able to better phrase what you dislike about something or understand why you dislike something from discussing with others is something to be enjoyed.

Also on the sexual assault thing: yeah I've got to say fuck that. Society has some real problems with how it deals with assault and consent, and while there is no hard proof that making jokes of it contributes to these problems, it sure as shit does nothing to help. It's just such a sensitive issue that I absolutely can't enjoy having a predator made a comedic, positive character.

I don't like being lumped in with overprotective/over-sensitive people just because I don't like seeing sexual assault being made light of.

Well said.

[Retan]

Heck, even if we were to accept that explanation for Freeza's strength, why is everyone so willing to accept it just on a narrative level? Aren't these the same people who admire the supposed moral that hard work can triumph natural talent with enough dedication? This movie shits all over that.

Apparently some admire it less for Villians, and others much more.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Vegeta attained SS by training. Goku attained SS2 and 3 off screen training, are they disgusting too?

Yeah, but Goku trained for 7 f**king YEARS... That's not even close to someone who was defeated and killed by a untrained SSJ and with only 4 MONTHS of training got power enough to battle a former Super Saiyan God

We don't know that though, Goku was dead for 7 years we do not no what happened in those 7 years, he could have obtained SS2 and 3 in a few months for all we know. But my original point still stands, if Goku can get TWO levels of Super Saiyan off screen with hardly or no explanation at all yet Freeza gets a new evolution with a specific explanation of four moths of training, all of a sudden this is ridiculous? Same goes for Vegeta when he become a Super Saiyan that was utter nonsense but it happened I see nobody complaining but when it is a villains turn to get a ridiculous power up people start saying it is disgusting etc yeah scratching my head at that one.

[Drayenko]

Same goes for Vegeta when he become a Super Saiyan that was utter nonsense but it happened I see nobody complaining.

That happened in 1991, wanna discuss about it?

[Doctor.]

How is Piccolo gaining a hundred times more power in 5 years (which most people consider silly, even though he had sparring partners) relevant to Freeza gaining something like a million times more power in 4 months? Or, more importantly, the various plot holes and retroactive character shifts that such an explanation brings?

Woah, woah, hold the phone.

"Millions"? We have absolutely no basis to say SSJG Goku is millions of times stronger than Freeza besides some imaginary, non-official, fan-made numbers. He could be thousands or hundreds of times weaker. We know that he's at least 400x, not much else.

[Gyt Kaliba]

That happened in 1991, wanna discuss about it?

And pray tell how something happening back then excludes it from being bad, while anything made now is excluded from being good?

[Drayenko]

I never said it was good. My point is that if it happened today, we would, for sure, discuss about it.

[rereboy]

Woah, woah, hold the phone.

"Millions"? We have absolutely no basis to say SSJG Goku is millions of times stronger than Freeza besides some imaginary, non-official, fan-made numbers. He could be thousands or hundreds of times weaker. We know that he's at least 400x, not much else.

We know that he is stronger than Vegetto because Beerus and SSJG Goku and implied to be stronger than Vegetto.

[Doctor.]

Woah, woah, hold the phone.

"Millions"? We have absolutely no basis to say SSJG Goku is millions of times stronger than Freeza besides some imaginary, non-official, fan-made numbers. He could be thousands or hundreds of times weaker. We know that he's at least 400x, not much else.

We know that he is stronger than Vegetto because Beerus and SSJG Goku and implied to be stronger than Vegetto.

Yes, but we don't know what the difference between Vegetto and Freeza even is. We know that base Goku was around Freeza's level, so we know that Freeza is 400x weaker than SSJ3 Goku, but that's about it. We don't know the difference between SSJ3 Goku and SSJG Goku to make a judgement saying that Freeza got "millions" of times stronger.

[Kakarot9001]

That happened in 1991, wanna discuss about it?

And pray tell how something happening back then excludes it from being bad, while anything made now is excluded from being good?

Of course, because the new will never surpass the old, period.

Woah, woah, hold the phone.

"Millions"? We have absolutely no basis to say SSJG Goku is millions of times stronger than Freeza besides some imaginary, non-official, fan-made numbers. He could be thousands or hundreds of times weaker. We know that he's at least 400x, not much else.

We know that he is stronger than Vegetto because Beerus and SSJG Goku and implied to be stronger than Vegetto.

Still makes me mad how Beerus could be stronger than a SSJ3 Vegetto, what a overpower, dude... That's why I hate BoG