Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[Marco Polo]

And now they're introducing a multiverse so, no, Boo isn't the final thing.

Every villain in Dragon Ball comes out of nowhere.

A Multiverse that is never mentioned in the epilogue, yay. Buu is the final thing and that's why Uub is a thing.

You are not answering his post. Every villain in Dragon Ball comes out of nowhere. Buu was never mentioned before his saga.

[Big Momma]

A Multiverse that is never mentioned in the epilogue, yay. Buu is the final thing and that's why Uub is a thing.

Why would any of it need to be mentioned in the epilogue? By that point, for all we know, Beerus would have been gone and asleep for years, and the multiverses would have been incredibly old news by then (Also something that only Goku knows about, as far as we know).

[Drayenko]

And before Vegetto was an endgame character, Gohan was. That's how the show has always gone.

It's not exactly the same. Vegetto had to be magically "killed," that's how stupid powerful he was/is.

You are not answering his post. Every villain in Dragon Ball comes out of nowhere. Buu was never mentioned before his saga.

Out of "nowhere" in an expanding universe. In the Buu saga we get to the Gods, the people who created EVERYTHING, and yet there is not even a hint of "Gods of destructions."

The only people who knew about Buu were Kibito and Shin.

[Marco Polo]

And before Vegetto was an endgame character, Gohan was. That's how the show has always gone.

It's not exactly the same. Vegetto had to be magically "killed," that's how stupid powerful he was/is.

You are not answering his post. Every villain in Dragon Ball comes out of nowhere. Buu was never mentioned before his saga.

Out of "nowhere" in an expanding universe. In the Buu saga we get to the Gods, the people who created EVERYTHING, and yet there is not even a hint of "Gods of destructions."

The only people who knew about Buu were Kibito and Shin.

The Gods in the Buu saga came out of nowhere, too. They were never mentioned before. We thought King Kai was the supreme god.

[Drayenko]

The Gods in the Buu saga came out of nowhere, too. They were never mentioned before. We thought King Kai was the supreme god.

Eh, not sure about you, but I never thought so. But hey, I watched Dragon Ball when it was already over, so what do I know.

[samuraix123]

So is my Paikuhan gonna show up and save everyone or what?

[Kakarot9001]

The way I see it. At the beginning we are focused on Earth, and we expand on Earth alone, everything makes sense. Then we have the Saiyans, where we learn there is a universe full of strong people. Let's omit the Android saga just because. In the Buu saga we get an Universal scale. We have the Kaioshins and all of that. We have explored everything. Kaio shin never mentions a God of destruction, ever. Buu is the final "thing," the worst that's happened to the UNIVERSE.

I'm saying that off the top of my head, but yeah. Beerus kinda comes out of nowhere, because we had an epilogue with no mention of any of these things.

Bleh. I like the idea of Beerus and the different universes. The power scales, not so much. Super Saiyajin God, even less. IT really does come out of nowhere.

Where do I sign?

[dbzfan7]

The thing is, Vegetto is an endgame character, so yeah, Beerus being cynically stronger... eh. I doesn't sit well with me either.

And before Vegetto was an endgame character, Gohan was. That's how the show has always gone.

I mean hey, Gohan's my favorite character and the reason I got into the show, but I'm not so attached to him that any property is ruined forever just because he looks inferior to other characters, y'know?

I don't mind Goku and Vegeta being stronger, or Gohan never fighting again if he chose to. I hate that the only role they want to give to Gohan is make him job to everyone. Jobbing is an embarrassing role.

Also I'm predicting that Vegeta didn't get Super Saiyan God, but trained to get ridiculously strong in such a short amount of time. Might not be the case, but I can see them going with that stupid idea.

[bleed0range]

After like 100 pages of all this complaining (that included some from me), I just feel like it's not worth making such a big deal out of it all. I think we all have to remember that, this manga ended 20 years ago and honestly Toriyama had done just about everything you COULD do in the manga up to that point. Let's be real, more ridiculous transformations wouldn't make anything any more original or new. That's why I always scoffed at the fan drawings of SSJ5, SSJ6 or whatever. There comes a point where it's just silly. Toriyama had, as someone recently pointed out... escalated the threats of villains from just Goku and his friends/planet Earth all the way to Buu who threatened the destruction of the entire universe. He created a character that essentially was magic through Buu. He explored androids, genetics, aliens, etc. He showed us both the whole world and the afterlife (heaven)... even going so far as to show us those who watched over the universe/galaxies. To be honest, there isn't much more he ever could do that would be SO original. This is, in my opinion, the most major reason why Toriyama ended the manga where he did... because although you can keep telling the story... there's only so much you could do that would keep it fresh.

So 20 years later he finally reveals a new dimension of power. A God form that Goku is able to attain. That IS sort of a new direction... he does tell us about this possible multiverse which IS interesting and expands everything further. But people are now complaining that even that stuff just comes out of nowhere. Even though in reality we know the same goes for anything prior in the manga. Because in real life, this story is fiction being made up as it goes along so just because goku was never mentioned as being an alien before didn't mean it couldn't be true. We know the reality behind the situation. So why is it so hard to accept?

Toriyama is addressing that continually making ridiculous power-up forms like SSJ6 or whatever won't be interesting by doing the opposite. SSJ God Goku is lean and small because why would a God even need actual strength in muscle? It's also less ridiculous. Same goes for Golden Freeza. Honestly, there's really no win-win situation here. Everything has really already been done and although he could make ridiculous transformations or continue to explore other universes. I don't think there's really all that much that could seem MORE threatening then what has come before, MORE original or MORE interesting.

So, we have these new films and I think we should be able to enjoy them for what they are. Because honestly, Toriyama was right originally in that we never needed any further stories. He really had touched on everything that was worth touching on during the manga's run. It's kind of either more dragon ball that we don't really need from a narrative point of view or nothing. Which is better?

By the way, I've NEVER seen a fan idea that was actually better then anything Toriyama ever ACTUALLY did. So half of the opinions of everyone on what they SHOULD be doing is wrong. Including the ridiculous drawings I've been seeing of what Freeza's new form SHOULD look like. Oh so original. There's just nowhere new to take the dragon ball world. I know that's not going to be a popular view, but it's always been in the back of my mind. What else can they do? They've even had the character fuse together to make new characters! Even though Beerus is cool, he is not as threatening as Majin Buu was. His bizarre personality and powers were far more original and interesting. You can't really top that.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

bleed0range you pretty much hit the nail on the head with that post! Agree with everything you said.

[jjgp1112]

And before Vegetto was an endgame character, Gohan was. That's how the show has always gone.

It's not exactly the same. Vegetto had to be magically "killed," that's how stupid powerful he was/is.

You are not answering his post. Every villain in Dragon Ball comes out of nowhere. Buu was never mentioned before his saga.

Out of "nowhere" in an expanding universe. In the Buu saga we get to the Gods, the people who created EVERYTHING, and yet there is not even a hint of "Gods of destructions."

The only people who knew about Buu were Kibito and Shin.

Before Supreme Kai, King Kai was supposed to be the supreme ruler. Then we find out there are 3 other guys who do the same thing on other corners of the universe. And then we find out there are Kais above THEM. And then before that, Kami was supposed to be the supreme ruler of all. See where I'm getting at? All of these come out of nowhere without any sort of prior hint. It goes back to the issue some fans have in reconciling new additions to what they feel is a finished story.

[dbzfan7]

After like 100 pages of all this complaining (that included some from me), I just feel like it's not worth making such a big deal out of it all. I think we all have to remember that, this manga ended 20 years ago and honestly Toriyama had done just about everything you COULD do in the manga up to that point. Let's be real, more ridiculous transformations wouldn't make anything any more original or new. That's why I always scoffed at the fan drawings of SSJ5, SSJ6 or whatever.

So 20 years later he finally reveals a new dimension of power. A God form that Goku is able to attain.

Toriyama is addressing that continually making ridiculous power-up forms like SSJ6 or whatever won't be interesting by doing the opposite. SSJ God Goku is lean and small because why would a God even need actual strength in muscle? It's also less ridiculous. Same goes for Golden Freeza. Honestly, there's really no win-win situation here

So more ridiculous transformations wouldn't make anything original or new, Toriyama knows this, and then he goes ahead and makes 2 more ridiculous transformations.

By the way, I've NEVER seen a fan idea that was actually better then anything Toriyama ever ACTUALLY did. So half of the opinions of everyone on what they SHOULD be doing is wrong. Including the ridiculous drawings I've been seeing of what Freeza's new form SHOULD look like. Oh so original.

It's subjective whether people like a design or not, no one is wrong. Some of those designs aren't original, but neither is Golden Freeza.

Before Supreme Kai, King Kai was supposed to be the supreme ruler. Then we find out there are 3 other guys who do the same thing on other corners of the universe. And then we find out there are Kais above THEM. And then before that, Kami was supposed to be the supreme ruler of all. See where I'm getting at? All of these come out of nowhere without any sort of prior hint. It goes back to the issue some fans have in reconciling new additions to what they feel is a finished story.

You're right, but you gotta ask, what point is the line drawn? How many times can this be done before it's either an ass pull, or silly. It wasn't really great in the manga either, but really this could happen for anything. Appule could have a muscle bound super brother who didn't like him, and is stronger than all the gods. Nothing contradicts that.

[Zephyr]

Toriyama was right originally in that we never needed any further stories. He really had touched on everything that was worth touching on during the manga's run. It's kind of either more dragon ball that we don't really need from a narrative point of view or nothing.

I'd say that "more stories that didn't need to be told" could apply to the Buu arc. It could apply to the Cell arc. It could apply to everything after the 23rd Budokai, Uranai Baba, or even the very first story arc. Rumors of "X is where the story was supposed to end" wouldn't be so common otherwise.

[bleed0range]

Toriyama was right originally in that we never needed any further stories. He really had touched on everything that was worth touching on during the manga's run. It's kind of either more dragon ball that we don't really need from a narrative point of view or nothing.

I'd say that "more stories that didn't need to be told" could apply to the Buu arc. It could apply to the Cell arc. It could apply to everything after the 23rd Budokai, Uranai Baba, or even the very first story arc. Rumors of "X is where the story was supposed to end" wouldn't be so common otherwise.

I'd disagree about the Android or Cell arc because that further explored Vegeta's transformation into a good guy... it added new elements like time travel, cyborgs, genetics through Cell and it brought about a resolution to Gohan's hinted at power. It gave us a coming of age tale that allowed Gohan to be the hero. There were plenty of fresh elements there.

I'd also disagree about the Buu arc because it brought fusion, Vegeta reverting to his former evil self and struggling with himself changing into a family man, further exploration of the unvierse which hadn't really been done yet, a magical villain that was like putty that seemed almost invincible and showed us what the world would be like with the characters having aged 7 years without Goku around. It also gave Mr. Satan some character development and the ultimate resolution to Vegeta's transformation into a good person.

There comes a point where you run out of things to explore. Aliens, time travel, space, heaven/hell, gods, magical beings, mind control, fusions, coming-of-age tales, exploring the main character becoming a father and how he deals with his son (Goku/Saiyan arc), it even touched on the super hero motif with Great Saiyaman. Seriously, there was still some new stuff to do in the Buu arc... but it's all kind of been done now. I'm sure Toriyama knows this, but he's doing it more for the fans (and money) then anything else because at this point in his age people tend to go back and explore their biggest success they left behind because as life winds down you go, "Why not?"

After like 100 pages of all this complaining (that included some from me), I just feel like it's not worth making such a big deal out of it all. I think we all have to remember that, this manga ended 20 years ago and honestly Toriyama had done just about everything you COULD do in the manga up to that point. Let's be real, more ridiculous transformations wouldn't make anything any more original or new. That's why I always scoffed at the fan drawings of SSJ5, SSJ6 or whatever.

So 20 years later he finally reveals a new dimension of power. A God form that Goku is able to attain.

Toriyama is addressing that continually making ridiculous power-up forms like SSJ6 or whatever won't be interesting by doing the opposite. SSJ God Goku is lean and small because why would a God even need actual strength in muscle? It's also less ridiculous. Same goes for Golden Freeza. Honestly, there's really no win-win situation here

So more ridiculous transformations wouldn't make anything original or new, Toriyama knows this, and then he goes ahead and makes 2 more ridiculous transformations.

By the way, I've NEVER seen a fan idea that was actually better then anything Toriyama ever ACTUALLY did. So half of the opinions of everyone on what they SHOULD be doing is wrong. Including the ridiculous drawings I've been seeing of what Freeza's new form SHOULD look like. Oh so original.

It's subjective whether people like a design or not, no one is wrong. Some of those designs aren't original, but neither is Golden Freeza.

You're missing the point. I'm not saying what Toriyama did is more original. Neither is he. I think he knows there's not much else that can be told, which is why he left the series behind when he did. But at this point, he's doing it more for the fans (and the money I'm sure). Most famous actors and directors say, "I will never do another___" again in their careers early on. Whatever it was they were super famous for, they do it for awhile and then stop. But you'll find they'll re-explore those things sometimes as they get older because they no longer have their future careers to worry about or being known only for that one thing. They become okay with doing some more for the fun of it because, why not? I think that's just sort of where Toriyama stands on it.

The question is not whether or not it is more original. It's whether or not you can deal with the fact that everything has kind of already been done. Either more Dragon Ball or none?

And yeah, it's subjective... but that's a cop-out response to just about anything. Every opinion is subjective. But there's a reason some people create works like Dragon Ball and some people are just fans leeching ideas off of concepts that have already come before. Most fan drawings are just SSJ3 with different hair colors or clothing... those Freeza drawings are a mix of Cooler and some of Freeza's other forms. So yeah, I'd say they're nowhere near as good as anything Toriyama did. You didn't see fans making Goku more scrawny... so although not super original, it is at least more unexpected. Which is about the best result you could get at this point.

[KaiserNeko]

The only issue I have with Freeza's new design is the color. That gold is rather garish, up against the purple. Other than that, though, I think simple was 100% the way to go. Freeza's entire deal was that he was at his strongest in his final form, and it was sleeker and simpler than any of the forms before him. Making simple, smaller changers for his final form (such as making him more masculine and taller, and changing his color) work well, but the color choice seems a tad ignorant of color theory, in this regard.

I might watch the movie and come to love it, who knows. Or maybe it'll continue to look garish! We'll see.

As for the ever expanding hierarchy in the universe that is DragonBall: Kami-sama came out of nowhere. Enma Daiou came out of nowhere. Kaiou-sama came out of nowhere. The other Kaiou came out of nowhere. Kaioushin totally came out of nowhere. So, yeah, Beerus' existence was certainly out of nowhere... but I certainly don't find it surprising at this point, nor do I think think it's any different from what's come before it. Super Saiyan God was a little distracting, if not only because you'd like a legend such as that would have been a tad more pervasive. Part of me was hoping it would be more heavily implied that the Super Saiyan God would ultimately be the Super Saiyan of legend. But, that wouldn't have made it that much better, and may have just opened the door for other complaints. Either way, I enjoyed Battle of Gods immensely, as Beerus was a fantastic antagonist, we got to see some legitimate character development for Goku and Vegeta, the interactions were fun, and it opened the door for new possibilities in the future. Certainly wasn't perfect (the Pilaf scenes were more of a distraction than anything else, Goku and Vegeta being the only characters to actually get fights was frustratingly disappointing, and the Super Saiyan God transformation and design were both lackluster, though not upsettingly so for me), but it felt more like DragonBall than any of the other pieces of animation that have dropped in the last several years, Yo! Son Goku included.

The Earth was almost destroyed because of pudding. That is DragonBall.

... I also adore Gohan's gym clothes outfit, am in love with Policeman Kuririn, think Freeza's hell is 100% perfect, think the whole "hoard of soldiers" angle is something great that the series has rarely ever tried before and I can't wait to see Gohan, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Kuririn, and Roshi battle their way through them, and personally am okay with Freeza gaining the strength to fight Goku in four months of training, as I've talked about several times in this thread. I'm excited for this flick, and just hope that the animation for it doesn't bulk at the feat.

[Zephyr]

There comes a point where you run out of things to explore. Aliens, time travel, space, heaven/hell, gods, magical beings, mind control, fusions, coming-of-age tales, exploring the main character becoming a father and how he deals with his son (Goku/Saiyan arc), it even touched on the super hero motif with Great Saiyaman. Seriously, there was still some new stuff to do in the Buu arc... but it's all kind of been done now.

None of that was necessary though. The story could have been wrapped up at either of those points and what had already been told would be fine.

You're making it sound as if everything that is happening in these new films doesn't qualify as "something new to be explored", like they've already somehow happened. Gods of destruction weren't explored before. Righteous ki coming together to form divine ki wasn't explored before. Vegeta finally being a legitimate good guy wasn't explored before. Goku losing a fight, nobody saving the day in his stead, and the villain sparing everyone anyway, wasn't explored before.

Or perhaps rather than saying "these things have already been explored", you're saying "these things didn't need to be explored", to which I could reply that the same could be said about aliens, gods, cyborgs, time travel, the afterlife, mind control, fatherhood, fusion, and superheroes.

[dbzfan7]

After like 100 pages of all this complaining (that included some from me), I just feel like it's not worth making such a big deal out of it all. I think we all have to remember that, this manga ended 20 years ago and honestly Toriyama had done just about everything you COULD do in the manga up to that point. Let's be real, more ridiculous transformations wouldn't make anything any more original or new. That's why I always scoffed at the fan drawings of SSJ5, SSJ6 or whatever.

So 20 years later he finally reveals a new dimension of power. A God form that Goku is able to attain.

Toriyama is addressing that continually making ridiculous power-up forms like SSJ6 or whatever won't be interesting by doing the opposite. SSJ God Goku is lean and small because why would a God even need actual strength in muscle? It's also less ridiculous. Same goes for Golden Freeza. Honestly, there's really no win-win situation here

So more ridiculous transformations wouldn't make anything original or new, Toriyama knows this, and then he goes ahead and makes 2 more ridiculous transformations.

By the way, I've NEVER seen a fan idea that was actually better then anything Toriyama ever ACTUALLY did. So half of the opinions of everyone on what they SHOULD be doing is wrong. Including the ridiculous drawings I've been seeing of what Freeza's new form SHOULD look like. Oh so original.

It's subjective whether people like a design or not, no one is wrong. Some of those designs aren't original, but neither is Golden Freeza.

You're missing the point. I'm not saying what Toriyama did is more original. Neither is he. I think he knows there's not much else that can be told, which is why he left the series behind when he did. But at this point, he's doing it more for the fans (and the money I'm sure). Most famous actors and directors say, "I will never do another___" again in their careers early on. Whatever it was they were super famous for, they do it for awhile and then stop. But you'll find they'll re-explore those things sometimes as they get older because they no longer have their future careers to worry about or being known only for that one thing. They become okay with doing some more for the fun of it because, why not? I think that's just sort of where Toriyama stands on it.

The question is not whether or not it is more original. It's whether or not you can deal with the fact that everything has kind of already been done. Either more Dragon Ball or none?

And yeah, it's subjective... but that's a cop-out response to just about anything. Every opinion is subjective. But there's a reason some people create works like Dragon Ball and some people are just fans leeching ideas off of concepts that have already come before. Most fan drawings are just SSJ3 with different hair colors or clothing... those Freeza drawings are a mix of Cooler and some of Freeza's other forms. So yeah, I'd say they're nowhere near as good as anything Toriyama did. You didn't see fans making Goku more scrawny... so although not super original, it is at least more unexpected. Which is about the best result you could get at this point.

I don't believe that honestly. He just believes doing a simple less flashy form is the way to go. I agree to a certain level, but the results imo, come off as something that I and others feel as, too clingy. It's like he might be too scared to try and be different like he was once before, or he's too attached to his old designs, he doesn't want to change them.

I don't really believe that. We have a whole multi-verse that's new to Dragon Ball, and it's seemingly being used as a tidbit for the staple of "There's always someone stronger". So instead of using that new plot point, it's a throwaway tidbit that may never be explored.

More scrawny Goku is an interesting idea to me, but I don't like how he just looks like base form Goku. I mean if they tweaked his base form hair some more to make it somewhat more different, I'd be happier. I've said Toriyama has great ideas, but just needs some help with them. That's my opinion.

[Herms]

@bleed0range: Even just sticking with character designs and not getting into story elements, I do feel like the original series was a pretty hard act to follow. I mean, while I've never been a huge Freeza fan, for my money Freeza's fourth form is one of the best designs Toriyama's ever come up with. Coola's fifth form just doesn't hold a candle, and even Freeza's bulky 100% full power upgrade kind of ruins it for me. So the odds that anything Toriyama could come up these days would feel like an actual improvement were slim to none from the outset. With that in mind, his "change as little as possible" approach with Golden Freeza feels like a canny move...even if the logical endpoint of this train of thought is that it would have been even better to keep Freeza exactly the same. Actually, maybe the joke people had going for a while that Freeza's "new form" was simply that the big jelly bean in his chest was now white instead of purple wasn't such a bad idea.

Likewise with Super Saiyan God, coming up with any new Super Saiyan form after all this time seems like a recipe for disaster. The original Super Saiyan design was probably Toriyama's "less is more" and "easiest is best" approach at its most brilliant: hardly anything about Goku changes, yet he still looks completely different. There was pretty much no way of getting lightning in a bottle like that again. Even the variations in the main series seem pretty gimmicky in comparison: "more muscles! more sparks! more hair than you ever thought possible!" Super Saiyan 4 (not designed by Toriyama, I know) looks cool, but half of why it works is because the fairly complex design sets it apart from the relatively simple Super Saiyan transformations that came before it, and the other half is because the "monkey" aspect of the Saiyans had been neglected for so long that bringing it back made a big impression. If Toriyama had made Super Saiyan God complex like that, or with the same monkey elements, it wouldn't have seemed half as cool (and indeed, Yamamuro's original "beefy guy in cape" design sounds terrible, though obviously it's hard to judge without any actual pictures). So it made sense for him to stick with something simple, but simple had also been done before. It's hard to beat out Ultimate Gohan in the "transformations that change as little as possible" department. In the end we got something that's probably better than the blasted "cape" thing, gold Super Saiyan 4s, or anything convoluted like that, but still doesn't quite feel new enough. The best thing it has going for it is how it actually makes Goku skinnier and younger-looking, which isn't something we'd really gotten with a Saiyan transformation before, and helps set it apart from the Kaio-ken, which it otherwise resembles far too much. But for reasons quite outside my understanding, that's the aspect a lot of fans seem to hate most about it.

Bottom line I guess is that while Golden Freeza and Super Saiyan God aren't some of Toriyama's better designs, all the best designs had already been used up in the main series, and they still look 14 trillion times better than most of the fan mock-ups. Although I will say: tracksuit Gohan looks as good as any Gohan we've had so far.

(The fact that Beerus and Whis look amazing should go without saying, but they're also not new forms of preexisting things like Golden Freeza and Super Saiyan God, so it was probably easier to break new ground with them. I mean, if Freeza's new form looked like Whis, and Super Saiyan God looked like Beerus...well, that would be kind of amazing, but would probably also be too big of a non-sequitur even for Toriyama.)

[dbzfan7]

@bleed0range: Even just sticking with character designs and not getting into story elements, I do feel like the original series was a pretty hard act to follow. I mean, while I've never been a huge Freeza fan, for my money Freeza's fourth form is one of the best designs Toriyama's ever come up with. Coola's fifth form just doesn't hold a candle, and even Freeza's bulky 100% full power upgrade kind of ruins it for me. So the odds that anything Toriyama could come up these days would feel like an actual improvement were slim to none from the outset. With that in mind, his "change as little as possible" approach with Golden Freeza feels like a canny move...even if the logical endpoint of this train of thought is that it would have been even better to keep Freeza exactly the same. Actually, maybe the joke people had going for a while that Freeza's "new form" was simply that the big jelly bean in his chest was now white instead of purple wasn't such a bad idea.

Likewise with Super Saiyan God, coming up with any new Super Saiyan form after all this time seems like a recipe for disaster. The original Super Saiyan design was probably Toriyama's "less is more" and "easiest is best" approach at its most brilliant: hardly anything about Goku changes, yet he still looks completely different. There was pretty much no way of getting lightning in a bottle like that again. Even the variations in the main series seem pretty gimmicky in comparison: "more muscles! more sparks! more hair than you ever thought possible!" Super Saiyan 4 (not designed by Toriyama, I know) looks cool, but half of why it works is because the fairly complex design sets it apart from the relatively simple Super Saiyan transformations that came before it, and the other half is because the "monkey" aspect of the Saiyans had been neglected for so long that bringing it back made a big impression. If Toriyama had made Super Saiyan God complex like that, or with the same monkey elements, it wouldn't have seemed half as cool (and indeed, Yamamuro's original "beefy guy in cape" design sounds terrible, though obviously it's hard to judge without any actual pictures). So it made sense for him to stick with something simple, but simple had also been done before. It's hard to beat out Ultimate Gohan in the "transformations that change as little as possible" department. In the end we got something that's probably better than the blasted "cape" thing, gold Super Saiyan 4s, or anything convoluted like that, but still doesn't quite feel new enough. The best thing it has going for it is how it actually makes Goku skinnier and younger-looking, which isn't something we'd really gotten with a Saiyan transformation before, and helps set it apart from the Kaio-ken, which it otherwise resembles far too much. But for reasons quite outside my understanding, that's the aspect a lot of fans seem to hate most about it.

Bottom line I guess is that while Golden Freeza and Super Saiyan God aren't some of Toriyama's better designs, all the best designs had already been used up in the main series, and they still look 14 trillion times better than most of the fan mock-ups. Although I will say: tracksuit Gohan looks as good as any Gohan we've had so far.

(The fact that Beerus and Whis look amazing should go without saying, but they're also not new forms of preexisting things like Golden Freeza and Super Saiyan God, so it was probably easier to break new ground with them. I mean, if Freeza's new form looked like Whis, and Super Saiyan God looked like Beerus...well, that would be kind of amazing, but would probably also be too big of a non-sequitur even for Toriyama.)

I can mostly agree with this. It's also why I think Toriyama can do new characters well, as well as giving nifty clothes to the characters we know, but isn't so great in designing new forms.

[Retan]

I'm sure Bandai asked him to do something where they wouldn't have to change designs, just colors, for there Future Freeza figures. Again I could be wrong though.