Official DBZ 2015 Movie Power Discussion: "Resurrection F"

[Cetra]

So every Freezer minion must be stronger than Roshi? I don't think so. I am pretty sure there are pilots, scientists or whatever that also cannot really fight. And then there are soldiers who are enough for normal humans but not Roshi.

[godku23]

I could see Roshi getting to post Kami training Krillin over time, maybe Raditz level, but that may be pushing it.

[RancorSnp]

Roshi has trained for hundred of years at least. After so much time it's safe to assume he reached his complete limit, unlike all the main cast, Roshi is not a mutant, he is a genius, but he can't surpass the limits of the human race. It's true we see him get seemingly stronger between first two Budokai's, but i belie it was just him regaining past strenght.

I would say a peak of Roshis power would be a power level of around 150, and in this movie his power level is probably around 120 Still enough to be the strongest Earthling, or one of the very top not counting mutant main cast.

It's very important to note though, that what makes roshi strong is NOT his power level, but Ki manipulating expertise. My personal theory is that USSJ does NOT exist at all. In my opinion it's just a ki manipulation technique, that allows to increase physical strength, and it's the very same technique as Freeza's "100% power" and Master Roshi's buff form.
Since SSJ is said to increase your base power 50 times, it works 50 times better for Super sayan than for Freeza and Roshi, but it's still a very powerful boost in strenght. Actually Freeza states that before buffing his muscles he has only 70% of this power.

Adding up both this boost, and the fact Roshi probaly knows the very best way of focusing his Ki, I conclude his Kamehameha wave is an energy attack of Around 200. Yes I do believe this is enough to send normal Freeza soldiers flying, and we do not even know if he defeated them with that move, or just damaged and moved aside.

Personally I think that lowest class Freeza soldiers would have power levels between 50 - 200.

[Doctor.]

And Freeza is already a mutant born with an abnormally large power, whilst being a prodigy on top of that. For the record, I'm not saying I agree with the route Toriyama is taking, I'm saying that increasing his power exponentially with training isn't impossible for Freeza.

Anyway, I'm sure we'll get refrained by the mod team if we continue this discussion.

And, like I said, Goten and Trunks put Freeza's prodigy status to shame by being shown to be even greater prodigies, already stronger than Freeza while they are little kids, without any real training, just playing around.

They're stronger than Freeza with a transformation and they indeed had training, just not much. Freeza had none at all, he says.

[rereboy]

They're stronger than Freeza with a transformation and they indeed had training, just not much. Freeza had none at all, he says.

1. They had absolutely no training. Goten didn't even know to fly or how to pronounce and properly shoot a Kamehameha, while Freeza did know that and had a master level control of various techniques. Freeza even states that his father had been the only one able to strike him and put some dust on him, implying that they at least spared a little.

Meanwhile, its clear that the kids had never spared with their elders at all, which is why Vegeta and Gohan are shocked by how strong they are.

The only thing mentioned for the kids is that they played around with each other, and at least that much is implied for Freeza when he stated that his father had been able to strike him and put some dust on him.

2. Its unknown how Freeza's transformation works. There is nothing to suggest that if he had the transformation in Namek that he would be stronger than Buu saga Trunks and Goten.

3. Freeza's base state may be stronger than the base form of Goten and Trunks individually. But its not stronger than the base form of Gotenks. And yet, Gotenks, with, not one, but three transformations, is only Super Buu level. Freeza, with just 4 months and one transformation, is apparently as strong or stronger than a SSJG Goku that is implied to be stronger than Buu saga Vegetto.

[Retan]

So those who that are saying Freeza trained, are we basing this solely on the quote about his Father ever putting dust on him, or hurting him, or something actually concrete? As I've never been able to read the japanese version so I can't say for sure, but couldn't the statements about Freeza and his father hurting him, just be about Freeza getting mad and his father disciplining him?

[rereboy]

So those who that are saying Freeza trained, are we basing this solely on the quote about his Father ever putting dust on him, or hurting him, or something actually concrete? As I've never been able to read the japanese version so I can't say for sure, but couldn't the statements about Freeza and his father hurting him, just be about Freeza getting mad and his father disciplining him?

My opinion is that, in the manga, he never had hard training with the specific objective of increasing his power. But he did learn how to use his power, which at least involved sparing with Cold and learning techniques.

The kids in the Buu saga are implied to have even less than that.

[Retan]

Goku only needed to see Kamesennin preform a Kamehameha once to preform, couldn't Freeza have seen his father do some of those moves, and come up with the rest on the fly, much like Goku in early dragonball? And when I say train I mean, as in he's not in shape, still incredibly powerful, but much physically weaker then he should be, not in a fight sense, but in a conditioning sense. (And yes I know he became ultra buff, at 100%)

[rereboy]

Goku only needed to see Kamesennin preform a Kamehameha once to preform, couldn't Freeza have seen his father do some of those moves, and come up with the rest on the fly, much like Goku in early dragonball? And when I say train I mean, as in he's not in shape, still incredibly powerful, but much physically weaker then he should be, not in a fight sense, but in a conditioning sense. (And yes I know he became ultra buff, at 100%)

Goku's techniques level, for example, evolves over time. A clear example of this is Goku performing the Super Kamehameha at the 23rd tournament. Its not simply a matter of power, they actually become better and more effective. At the 23rd tournament, Goku's Kamehameha is superior in every way to Roshi's Kamehameha, not just in power.

And Freeza is shown to have a degree of control over his techniques that rivals Goku and the others.

I find it highly unlikely that everything that Freeza does was something that he nailed at the very first time and that he didn't learn how to use his power.

[Retan]

Goku only needed to see Kamesennin preform a Kamehameha once to preform, couldn't Freeza have seen his father do some of those moves, and come up with the rest on the fly, much like Goku in early dragonball? And when I say train I mean, as in he's not in shape, still incredibly powerful, but much physically weaker then he should be, not in a fight sense, but in a conditioning sense. (And yes I know he became ultra buff, at 100%)

Goku's techniques level, for example, evolves over time. A clear example of this is Goku performing the Super Kamehameha at the 23rd tournament. Its not simply a matter of power, they actually become better and more effective. At the 23rd tournament, Goku's Kamehameha is superior in every way to Roshi's Kamehameha, not just in power.

And Freeza is shown to have a degree of control over his techniques that rivals Goku and the others.

I find it highly unlikely that everything that Freeza does was something that he nailed at the very first time and that he didn't learn how to use his power.

All I'm saying is it's like theres a difference between a natural athlete, and a professional one, a professional is usually a natural athlete that trains hard right? Freeza is like the natural athlete who doesn't work at it, but get's by on mostly natural talent alone. In this movie Freeza goes through with training to become what he becomes, sure a pro athlete has usually trained there whole life, and not gotten near the boost that Freeza will for this movie, but then again there not Freeza.

[ZazamPow]

They're stronger than Freeza with a transformation and they indeed had training, just not much. Freeza had none at all, he says.

1. They had absolutely no training. Goten didn't even know to fly or how to pronounce and properly shoot a Kamehameha, while Freeza did know that and had a master level control of various techniques. Freeza even states that his father had been the only one able to strike him and put some dust on him, implying that they at least spared a little.

Meanwhile, its clear that the kids had never spared with their elders at all, which is why Vegeta and Gohan are shocked by how strong they are.

The only thing mentioned for the kids is that they played around with each other, and at least that much is implied for Freeza when he stated that his father had been able to strike him and put some dust on him.

2. Its unknown how Freeza's transformation works. There is nothing to suggest that if he had the transformation in Namek that he would be stronger than Buu saga Trunks and Goten.

3. Freeza's base state may be stronger than the base form of Goten and Trunks individually. But its not stronger than the base form of Gotenks. And yet, Gotenks, with, not one, but three transformations, is only Super Buu level. Freeza, with just 4 months and one transformation, is apparently as strong or stronger than a SSJG Goku that is implied to be stronger than Buu saga Vegetto.

Wouldn't the fact that Goten can't fly or perform Kamehamehas without being trained, while Freez COULD indicate that Freeza is more of a prodigy than Goten and Trunks? King Cold hitting Freeza doesn't at all indicate training, it indicates that King Cold was a tyrant and didn't even mind hitting his own child when he felt like it.

It's a fact that Freeza never trained a day in his life, he never even lifted a finger. For 50% of the Namek arc he just sat in a chair, he couldn't even be bothered to walk. All of his power and abilities is entirely natural, the guy didn't even bother to keep himself in shape, he just lazed around in his hover chair and did whatever he wanted. Goten and Trunks are stronger than him as Super Saiyans, but that's because Super Saiyan is a stronger transformation than any of Freeza's transformations. Again, if Freeza could master all of these ki techniques and match guys like Piccolo and Goku move for move in martial arts, through sheer instinct, than he is a far greater prodigy than Goten and Trunks.

[Drayenko]

It's a fact that Freeza never trained a day in his life, he never even lifted a finger. For 50% of the Namek arc he just sat in a chair.

No and no. Namek was probably 7 days. That doesn't mean anything, nothing.

[ZazamPow]

It's a fact that Freeza never trained a day in his life, he never even lifted a finger. For 50% of the Namek arc he just sat in a chair.

No and no. Namek was probably 7 days. That doesn't mean anything, nothing.

Your talent at speaking and explaining astounds me. Congratulations, it's open minded people like you that make this forum worth visiting.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

About Freeza not having done any training before contradicting the manga:

The only thing that implies that Freeza had done training is all the techniques he has, but Freeza has also demonstrated the ability to easily mimic techniques by stealing & improving at the same time Kuririn's Kienzan. So, maybe he was taught, or mimicked from enemies or allies, some techniques, and learned them all easily, but he had never done any actual training to increase his battle power.

As for his statement that Cold had gotten some dust on him in the past, it doesn't mean that Cold did that while Freeza was at full power, since he was using around 2.5% of his full power when Goku got some dust on him. So, it could have been when he & Cold had an argument, and Freeza was in his true form, but wasn't using his full power.

So no, it doesn't really contradict the manga. It contradicts our, the fans', conclusions. I had also concluded that Freeza had done training to learn his techniques, and that it was during their training that Cold hurt him, but this is only one conclusion, not the only one.

[TheGmGoken]

Freeza looked beaten up when he defeated Goku. Both look like hell. Meaning Goku wasn't 100% dominated. As I stated earlier. My prediction is that Goku was going to win but something prevented him like being too nice or being a fool and falling for Freeza's tricks.

[Drayenko]

Your talent at speaking and explaining astounds me. Congratulations, it's open minded people like you that make this forum worth visiting.

I don't need to explain something you are assuming from nothing. So yeah, little open minded genius.

[flashback0180]

What's the power level of freezas henchmen.

[dbgtFO]

What's the power level of freezas henchmen.

Probably ranging from the low hundreds to low thousands.
That Red Demon Guy is probably a special henchman. I personally believe he's the remaining soldiers merged into one via Sorbet's ring and that's why he can beat Down Piccolo(and probably Gohan too).
We obviously will have a better idea, when the movie comes out.

[rereboy]

Wouldn't the fact that Goten can't fly or perform Kamehamehas without being trained, while Freez COULD indicate that Freeza is more of a prodigy than Goten and Trunks? King Cold hitting Freeza doesn't at all indicate training, it indicates that King Cold was a tyrant and didn't even mind hitting his own child when he felt like it.

It's a fact that Freeza never trained a day in his life, he never even lifted a finger. For 50% of the Namek arc he just sat in a chair, he couldn't even be bothered to walk. All of his power and abilities is entirely natural, the guy didn't even bother to keep himself in shape, he just lazed around in his hover chair and did whatever he wanted. Goten and Trunks are stronger than him as Super Saiyans, but that's because Super Saiyan is a stronger transformation than any of Freeza's transformations. Again, if Freeza could master all of these ki techniques and match guys like Piccolo and Goku move for move in martial arts, through sheer instinct, than he is a far greater prodigy than Goten and Trunks.

The greater the prodigy Freeza is and the easier it is for him to gain power, the more lazy and stupid he appears to be for never training, especially after Namek. So, even assuming what you said as true, that doesn't help the premisse of the movie at all.

Btw, I don't agree what you said at all. To me that's just forcibly interpreting things. Trunks and Goten are implied to be easily at least prodigies as big as Freeza. You seem to forget that they were 7 and 8 year old kids who didn't even have adult bodies yet. Freeza, even without training, had many more decades of experience and was a fully mature adult.

Finally, I can't wait for the return of Cell. He has the perfect combination of DNA from nameks, saiyans and freeza's race, and he never trained, so imagine the prodigy he is! He will train for a month and become stronger than a fusion of Beerus and Whis.

[Drayenko]

I don't know if this has been said, but. Kaioshin is stronger than Freeza, far stronger. We never got an indication that he trained, and then he is fused. So, by this movie's logic... shouldn't he train 3 hours and have God level power?