Would Z have been as successful on US TV if JPN BGM was kept

[Attitudefan]

When I was a child, I would judge a series on the opening, and I always wonder if I would've turned it off if I saw the Japanese opening when it first aired. However, I distinctly remember how pumped up I got watching Dead Zone and singing along with Cha La in gibberish Japanese. I got chills, and still do, when I hear Garlic jr summon the Dragon. I was so disappointed when I purchased it on DVD when they removed the score and Cha La from the redub and having all the characters sound weird.

That moment that I was disappointed with FUNimation's redub of Dead Zone was the moment I listened to the Japanese dub in full for the first time, and I never looked back. At least it had Cha La! Thanks for screwing up the redub FUNi!

So I guess in the end, if it had aired with the original score, as a kid, I probably would have been hooked on the intro!

[eledoremassis02]

I think the FUNi in-house dub just got in at the right time. Mind you that's when it really exploded and I think the scored helped it as it made everything more "epic"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEFZONODtPU

It's hard to tell with todays audience because thanks to the orange bricks and blurays and such people are more accustomed to the Japanese score. Back then it did sound very old and dated (the audio quality didnt help).

People watched clips and stuff in Japanese to see later episodes but it was usually small fragments. And it's like Nozawa's goku, a lot of people preferred the american version but tolerated the Japanese to see Buu or Freeza get cut in half, etc.

Now mind you, these are people who were introduced to DB by the US dubs. The fansub crowed was quite the opposite from what I hear

[Hellspawn28]

Baring in mind that there is no definite way to prove either way, my honest belief is that it would have still been successful but not as successful. Here's a few points I thought of:

-The original Dragonball did eventually air in the US in full with Kikuchi BGM, but failed to grab the level of attention that Z or even GT did. In Japan the original Dragonball was hugely popular, easily more than GT. This proves that there is at least some kind of difference in what audiences in different countries enjoy.

GT did better then the original Dragon Ball in the US because GT came out right after DBZ ended and was market as the next big thing. US fans that didn't follow the series on the web wanted to see what happen next right after DBZ. The original DB series aired in the US when DBZ was half way done on being dubbed and got over shadowed by DBZ. The original DB is still well liked and is popular with the fan base.

[MCDaveG]

I found the US audience opinions in this thread interesting, so I wanted to step in as a foreigner.
I don't know how the sentiment of 90's kids all over US worked, but I remember me and my friends back then as we loved the music.
The series felt more ''mature'' and unique because of that. As kids, we were watching loads of Kung-Fu movies and movies with music by John Williams, Elliot Goldenthal, Danny Elfman or James Horner.
Orchestral scores were the staple in BGM for us and usually, B movies from 80's and 90's had weird or cheesy synthesizer score including animated western series, which we rejected as something we watched as small kids.
Tough there are really good synthesizer scores of course, my most favorite is probably Vangelis' Blade Runner. Compare that with Faulconer and endlesly mixed music and you get the idea.

Japanese music in Dragon Ball was part of it's success in Europe, as it went with what we were used to, epic and classic things has orchestral music - Asian things and Kung-fu Movies have traditional or orchestral music.
Dragon Ball is asian fighting series and that music goes with it.

The change of score for US audience with the mindset of ''americanizing and adopting'' the series and changing it into cartoon standard makes sense.

One old story I told countless times here on forums.... We had Cartoon Network on cable TV, where the Saban's DBZ ran, and as my friend was sleeping at my house, we browsed the TV and stumbled upon the DBZ.
We never understood what the hell we were watching and turned it off as it was horrible. That weird atmospheric synth music, weird voices... wow.
My childhood version wasn't the Japanese one, but the french one and I knew Japanese actors from video games. French Vegeta has really horrible voice.

PS: Batman TAS? No comment, that is for me a masterpiece animated show from US. The score by Elfman and Shirley Walker? It was bigger than my childhood life.
First time I saw one episode as a little kid on german television and even tough I saw Burton's Batman, I was kind of frightened by it's look in dark night setting and noir music...

[Kamiccolo9]

PS: Batman TAS? No comment, that is for me a masterpiece animated show from US. The score by Elfman and Shirley Walker? It was bigger than my childhood life.
First time I saw one episode as a little kid on german television and even tough I saw Burton's Batman, I was kind of frightened by it's look in dark night setting and noir music...

This. I always considered BTAS and Gargoyles to be the "best" cartoons from the 90's, and they didn't have nonstop, synthesized scores. The idea that an American audience wouldn't have accepted anything other than that is ridiculous.

[MarcFBR]

This. I always considered BTAS and Gargoyles to be the "best" cartoons from the 90's, and they didn't have nonstop, synthesized scores. The idea that an American audience wouldn't have accepted anything other than that is ridiculous.

Those perhaps aren't the best examples despite being beloved and popular shows.

After the first production season BTAS was retitled and reworked to be more kid friendly (to the annoy-ment of the production crew which wasn't even allowed to make an episode that didn't feature Robin.)

Gargoyles in and of itself was only moderately popular while it was on, to the point that most of the staff was replaced after season 2 in an attempt to make the show more appealing to kids.

Batman was always very beloved, but Gargoyles has always been more beloved among a small group than overall (although most people will admit it is generally of high quality.) Gargoyles DVD sales were 'meh' enough that it took almost 8 years for Disney to do the last bit of season 2 on DVD.

Which is to say nothing of the fact that much of the ambiance/etc of BTAS was allowed to happen because of the popularity of the film.

[Kamiccolo9]

This. I always considered BTAS and Gargoyles to be the "best" cartoons from the 90's, and they didn't have nonstop, synthesized scores. The idea that an American audience wouldn't have accepted anything other than that is ridiculous.

Those perhaps aren't the best examples despite being beloved and popular shows.

After the first production season BTAS was retitled and reworked to be more kid friendly (to the annoy-ment of the production crew which wasn't even allowed to make an episode that didn't feature Robin.)

Gargoyles in and of itself was only moderately popular while it was on, to the point that most of the staff was replaced after season 2 in an attempt to make the show more appealing to kids.

Batman was always very beloved, but Gargoyles has always been more beloved among a small group than overall (although most people will admit it is generally of high quality.) Gargoyles DVD sales were 'meh' enough that it took almost 8 years for Disney to do the last bit of season 2 on DVD.

Which is to say nothing of the fact that much of the ambiance/etc of BTAS was allowed to happen because of the popularity of the film.

Well, I was speaking more from the viewpoint of an American growing up in the 90's moreso than from an objective quality standpoint.

[MarcFBR]

Well, I was speaking more from the viewpoint of an American growing up in the 90's moreso than from an objective quality standpoint.

That's my point.

They were objectively good. But both were reworked to be more kid friendly, and Gargoyles never lasted long in the first place and wasn't THAT popular in the first place.

People are bringing up examples that are relevant to 'them' as a person. I'd find it hard to name a better 90s toon than BTAS, but it did tend to skew away from the audience the networks wanted for their kids block.

[eledoremassis02]

This. I always considered BTAS and Gargoyles to be the "best" cartoons from the 90's, and they didn't have nonstop, synthesized scores. The idea that an American audience wouldn't have accepted anything other than that is ridiculous.

I full heartily agree but there was a interview with Fukunaga that stated test audiences said the japanese score was too sparse. I've been trying to find that again but I cant...that and japanese goku's voice being hard to tolerate.

While test audiences come with their own share of problems, it's what they wanted :/

[TheKingOfKamehamehas]

I am just going to say this....

Kikuchi replacing Shuki: Yes

Kikuchi replacing Faulconer: No

In all honesty, there are only a few people who think the Shuki Levy track was much better than Faulconer and we all know Faulconer tracks are the ones that became extremely popular.
Let me just tell you, Youtube proves how much people like Faulconer and shit on Kai....

[Kamiccolo9]

I am just going to say this....

Kikuchi replacing Shuki: Yes

Kikuchi replacing Faulconer: No

In all honesty, there are only a few people who think the Shuki Levy track was much better than Faulconer and we all know Faulconer tracks are the ones that became extremely popular.
Let me just tell you, Youtube proves how much people like Faulconer and shit on Kai....

Without going so far as to disparage the Youtube community, I'll just say that said community is hardly representative of the fanbase as a whole.

[Ajay]

Let me just tell you, Youtube proves how much people like Faulconer and shit on Kai....

YouTube represents a very small minority of fans. They hardly represent a general consensus.

[90sDBZ]

Baring in mind that there is no definite way to prove either way, my honest belief is that it would have still been successful but not as successful. Here's a few points I thought of:

-The original Dragonball did eventually air in the US in full with Kikuchi BGM, but failed to grab the level of attention that Z or even GT did. In Japan the original Dragonball was hugely popular, easily more than GT. This proves that there is at least some kind of difference in what audiences in different countries enjoy.

GT did better then the original Dragon Ball in the US because GT came out right after DBZ ended and was market as the next big thing. US fans that didn't follow the series on the web wanted to see what happen next right after DBZ. The original DB series aired in the US when DBZ was half way done on being dubbed and got over shadowed by DBZ. The original DB is still well liked and is popular with the fan base.

True DB is still generally well liked but is also under appreciated in that lots of people haven't even seen it. And even in more recent years the GT Yellow Bricks still sold more than the DB Blue Bricks. And then there's those comments from game producers saying that GT characters are more popular in America and Europe than in Japan, which is also supported by the fact that GT has been included in games much more frequently than DB.

[eledoremassis02]

Also the main negative things I've heard about BOG was that it was too comical and not enough epic fights, a very "Dragon Ball" movie if you will

[Lord Beerus]

DBZ would have been still successful if Kikuchi score remained intact. I mean Faulconer's score certainly is a remembered feature of the original run of the show but it's not the deal breaker as much many people claim it to be.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Let me just tell you, Youtube proves how much people like Faulconer and shit on Kai....

YouTube represents a very small minority of fans. They hardly represent a general consensus.

Perhaps, but quite frankly, neither does Kanzenshuu.

And hey, I love Kanzenshuu! I merely say what I said for the sake of context and perspective (as both are needed when we're discussing the topic of this thread). Kanzenshuu is a website dedicated primarily to the original version of the Dragon Ball animes. As such, on this forum, there is generally a great respect for that version. That's who this site appeals to. Almost anything relating to the original version is generally going to be viewed more favorably on this site than it might elsewhere.

A great example is the Dragon Boxes. Over on this forum, those box sets, while not quite idolized as holy relics, are generally thought of as the best home video format that Dragon Ball has ever existed on. The flip side of that is, I can't think of anywhere else that has scrutinized them to the point that we have. Even Anime News Network, in one of their reviews of the Dragon Boxes, said that they were "just another release," and that if you had the orange bricks, there was no need to get the Dragon Boxes.

In any event, I don't mean to digress. The truth is, we don't have any official sales data or graphs to go by to show us how many people really prefer the Faulconer score. Our answers are coming from opinions and deductions. There's nothing wrong with that, but it is perhaps not surprising that Kanzenshuu would primarily have people posting that the show would have been just as popular with the original score. We're not really the general consensus either......well, OK, perhaps taking the global fanbase into account, but not necessarily taking the English dub fanbase into account.

Now, having said all that......you may now laugh at the fact that I'm going to do exactly what I just described: post on Kanzenshuu that the show would have been just as popular with the original score.

Not only that, but I'm going to give the exact same reasons that everybody else has:
-It was popular everywhere else (because no other dub replaced the score).
-Other English-dubbed animes on Toonami (Gundam Wing, Tenchi Muyo, and many more) had the original score, and not a peep was heard about it.
-The dub of Dragon Ball used the original score. Again, not a peep.

I think part of the reason a large number of English dub fans have said that the original score "sucks" is because of the underwhelming 5.1 mix (first released on the orange bricks). It varies from episode to episode how loud the music is, and in huge batches of episodes, the music is not nearly loud enough, to the point that it is at times comically underwhelming.

[theoriginalbilis]

If shows like Ren & Stimpy can have classical music and German polka songs running in the background, there's no reason why DB and DBZ's English dub couldn't have had the "orchestral martial-arts movie" score run through the whole program.

Besides charging royalties, I think one of the other reasons why Z's dub received replacement scores initially was to help cover the numerous edits and rearranging of footage they were doing back in the Ocean/Saban days. The Kikuchi score would've been cutting in and out between different tracks constantly, and would have sounded incredibly jarring and unprofessional.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Besides charging royalties, I think one of the other reasons why Z's dub received replacement scores initially was to help cover the numerous edits and rearranging of footage they were doing back in the Ocean/Saban days. The Kikuchi score would've been cutting in and out between different tracks constantly, and would have sounded incredibly jarring and unprofessional.

Eh, not necessarily. FUNimation received the SFX and Music tracks separately (they must have, since they kept the original SFX), so theoretically they could get around the editing problem by just adjusting the placement of the music ever-so-slightly (making it start earlier or later). That's how they handled the edited Kai dub on some occasions.

Really, though, the charging of royalties was the biggest reason for the new score. FUNimation was a small company at the time, and DBZ's success was far from certain (it had been canceled once before, after all), so while I don't approve of their decision to make a new score as a fan, from a business perspective it was actually a pretty smart move.

[Adamant]

Even Anime News Network, in one of their reviews of the Dragon Boxes, said that they were "just another release," and that if you had the orange bricks, there was no need to get the Dragon Boxes.

Makes you wonder why they even review DVD releases at all.

[Cold Skin]

I don't think it would have worked so well, because the US got into Dragon Ball quite late. But I don't know if music is enough to impact the success or failure of a product.
There's a reason why, whether it's Funimation or Toei, they thought "wow, the music has to be replaced by something more suitable for today": Kikuchi's BGM sounds old, too old.
It's like "would the new Mario games work if you copy-pasted the NES tune from the first Mario game as-is, without reorchestration?". Nostalgic fans would be happy, others would not be.

Kikuchi sounds stripped, flat, it mostly sounds like midi trying to be orchestra and recorded on tape, it's very rare to have music that can take you out of the experience because it sounds ridiculously like the 30s or something. Basically, the sound itself sounds old and poor, and that's the problem because the composition itself is legendary.
Basically, even though I enjoy all Japanese scores since then, I have to wonder: why hasn't Toei simply re-recorded Kikuchi's tracks with better sound from nowadays' standards?

The sound is atrocious, dated, like an old tape playing flat instruments, but the composition is legendary and has become so for a reason and is already "owned" by Toei.
Toei would likely have much less to pay if they chose to pay a re-orchestration rather than pay a new composer to make new tracks (which is necessary for a movie but not for a remaster like Kai).
If Kikuchi's tracks were re-recorded in better, more dynamic, more striking sound quality (let's go for a full symphonic orchestra), everyone would be on board, as we would have compositions that are inspiring and emotional, AND a sound quality that has nothing to envy to big budget movies/games.

That being said, I'm quite happy with new tracks from new composers, so I'm not complaining.
But that really doesn't make a sense how a simple re-recording would be a much safer, money-saving and fan-satisfying solution that would get rid of the one and only problem: it all sounds OLD and flat. Just make it new and striking again, problem solved.