General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

[Kamiccolo9]

Tell that to all the DB fans calling GT utter trash because it's "not canon" therefore its garbage, evil, worse than Hitler and any number of dumb shit variations of the same comment I've seen all over the place these days.

Said DB fans seem incapable of looking at a dictionary.

[Sandubadear]

Nobody will agree on this because they either don't know what canon means, or they are being personal on the canon. "I like this and this so they are canon".

This will all fall apart if Freeza ends up mentioning Cooler in FnF.

[Dyno]

No, if Cooler is to be mentioned then prepare to see a new brand Cooler. Just like what happened to Bardock. In other words, Cooler being mentioned does not mean his movies happened in the manga continuity.

[Kakarot9001]

The original manga had an error in which Vegeta's power level was reduced to 20 thousand instead of increasing to 30 thousand after being beaten by Zarbon. The Kanzenban fixed this error. According to the logic you've been citing, we should ignore the Kanzenban's correction, because it came out later.

Are you serious? This rule applies in "canon fit" not in write or animation errors... That's why I I don't take in consideration Cooler cameo in GT, because it was unintentional or did we see Oob and the others fight Cooler?

No, if Cooler is to be mentioned then prepare to see a new brand Cooler. Just like what happened to Bardock. In other words, Cooler being mentioned does not mean his movies happened in the manga continuity.

When did we see a new Bardock? Are you talking about good guy Bardock in Minus or the Super Saiyan from another dimension? They can't create a new character for one that already exists. Besides I would like Freeza to mention Cooler that would make FnF entirely filler

[Kamiccolo9]

The original manga had an error in which Vegeta's power level was reduced to 20 thousand instead of increasing to 30 thousand after being beaten by Zarbon. The Kanzenban fixed this error. According to the logic you've been citing, we should ignore the Kanzenban's correction, because it came out later.

Are you serious? This rule applies in "canon fit" not in write or animation errors... That's why I I don't take in consideration Cooler cameo in GT, because it was unintentional or did we see Oob and the others fight Cooler?

When making up rules, one should be sure to account for all possibilities. Maybe your made-up rule just wasn't good enough? I'm just going by what you initially wrote down.

[Dyno]

Are you talking about good guy Bardock in Minus.

Yes.

Besides I would like Freeza to mention Cooler that would make FnF entirely filler

No.

[rereboy]

I'm getting the distinct impression that Kamiccolo9 is ignoring me. Oh, well...

[Kakarot9001]

When making up rules, one should be sure to account for all possibilities. Maybe your made-up rule just wasn't good enough? I'm just going by what you initially wrote down.

Nah, I didn't made for myself, I saw in Saiyan Island forum and I like it, it really works for most of the things

No.

Yes, it would

[Kamiccolo9]

When making up rules, one should be sure to account for all possibilities. Maybe your made-up rule just wasn't good enough? I'm just going by what you initially wrote down.

Nah, I didn't made for myself, I saw in Saiyan Island forum and I like it, it really works for most of the things

So it's somebody else's made-up rules then.

If you want to utilize that yourself, feel free, but don't quote it as objective fact.

[Hellspawn28]

Because that's irrelevant? A continuity and a canon are totally different things.

They are pretty much the same thing. I mean if something can't fit into the main continuity then it's not consider to be canon. That's why most fans here don't consider Fusion Reborn and Super #13 canon because they can't fit into the main continuity.

[Kamiccolo9]

Because that's irrelevant? A continuity and a canon are totally different things.

They are pretty much the same thing. I mean if something can't fit into the main continuity then it's not consider to be canon. That's why most fans here don't consider Fusion Reborn and Super #13 canon because they can't fit into the main continuity.

A canon is an out of universe concept in which works are collected. A continuity is an in-universe concept of a story's history. They are not the same thing.

[rereboy]

Belonging in a continuity is something that can only be ascertained out of universe. In-universe, there's always continuity and everything is in continuity. There's nothing in-universe and out of continuity. So, I disagree.

[lord turbo]

This is the canon as far as I see it

DB- --> Jaco ---> Dragon Ball (The Manga)

And then, with in the confines of the main manga; Yo!, Battle of Gods, and FnF

Next, Toriyama is not the sole owner of the franchise. Why shouldn't we consider Toei's works equally as valid, since, as far as everything "official" is concerned, they are just as much "Dragon Ball" as anything Toriyama made?

What about when Toriyama's stuff and Toei's stuff start contradicting each other?

A "canon" consist of a set of works, not continuities. When you start discussing in-universe contradictions, you are talking about continuity, not a canon. A canon can easily consist of multiple continuities, as shown in both Marvel and DC.

You are making it over complicated, when someone says canon, or if something is canonical to a series, they are asking if that story is set in the same continuity as main storyline. Ergo, the old 13 dbz movies are not canon to the main storyline (the manga) or even the anime for that matter regardless of paradox cameos. The canon of DBZ is simple, whatever is written to fit into the main storyline of the manga continuity is considered canon. This mean is Naho makes something and Toriyama gives its approval of officially happening in the manga continuity its canon to Dragon Ball. Episode of Bardock by Naho is a video game what if tie in for Dragon Ball Heroes so its not even really canon to the Bardock Special where Bardock himself is stated in Narration to have been killed by Freeza in the manga and shown killed by Freeza in the anime.

The way I see it so far you have the original manga, Tarble special, Trunks special (Manga), Bardock TV Special (Used to be canonical, is now overwritten by Minus), the aforementioned Minus special, Jaco special, BoGs film, and now RoF and any further movie additions by Toriyama. Dragon Ball Online's status as canonical to the manga continuity is left up in the air due to the recent new movies and things can only get hairier as more and more movies appear in the future. GT itself is already non-canonical for existing in the same continuity as the old 13 DBZ movies which are stated to be in alternate universe by Toriyama from the manga continuity.

Also, a set of works does not mean they all exist in the same canon/continuity with each other. For instance, Tencha Muyo, Tenchi Universe, and Tenchi Toyko are all official works of Tenchi Media, but all three shows exist in different universes from each other, they don't co-exist int he same continuity/canon with each other.

[Dyno]

Desconsidering Episode of Bardock because of its origin is somewhat invalid as well. Why don't you desconsider Tarble's OVA if this is the case? Tarble's OVA exists only to celebrate 40 years of Shonen Jump. A lot of other animes did an animation for it too.

[lord turbo]

Desconsidering Episode of Bardock because of its origin is somewhat invalid as well. Why don't you desconsider Tarble's OVA if this is the case? Tarble's OVA exists only to celebrate 40 years of Shonen Jump. A lot of other animes did an animation for it too.

I'm dismissing EoB for two reasons, 1. Its a game only what if scenario tie in for Dragon Ball Heroes so it has very little relevance to the Dragon Ball manga continuity to begin with and 2. Bardock Special was overwritten by Minus no longer making it in the continuity of the manga by default kicking EoB out of the picture since its a what if scenario kicking off from the out of continuity Bardock Special. Don't know why your brought up the Tarble special as it doesn't contradict anything (So far) and exist just fine as another additional to the manga continuity.

[ekrolo2]

Desconsidering Episode of Bardock because of its origin is somewhat invalid as well. Why don't you desconsider Tarble's OVA if this is the case? Tarble's OVA exists only to celebrate 40 years of Shonen Jump. A lot of other animes did an animation for it too.

I'm dismissing EoB for two reasons, 1. Its a game only what if scenario tie in for Dragon Ball Heroes so it has very little relevance to the Dragon Ball manga continuity to begin with and 2. Bardock Special was overwritten by Minus no longer making it in the continuity of the manga by default kicking EoB out of the picture since its a what if scenario kicking off from the out of continuity Bardock Special. Don't know why your brought up the Tarble special as it doesn't contradict anything (So far) and exist just fine as another additional to the manga continuity.

Wasn't Bardock's last stand shown in the manga as it is in the special? Freeza commented on Goku looking like Bardock in the manga but I could be wrong about that.

[Kamiccolo9]

Desconsidering Episode of Bardock because of its origin is somewhat invalid as well. Why don't you desconsider Tarble's OVA if this is the case? Tarble's OVA exists only to celebrate 40 years of Shonen Jump. A lot of other animes did an animation for it too.

I'm dismissing EoB for two reasons, 1. Its a game only what if scenario tie in for Dragon Ball Heroes so it has very little relevance to the Dragon Ball manga continuity to begin with and 2. Bardock Special was overwritten by Minus no longer making it in the continuity of the manga by default kicking EoB out of the picture since its a what if scenario kicking off from the out of continuity Bardock Special. Don't know why your brought up the Tarble special as it doesn't contradict anything (So far) and exist just fine as another additional to the manga continuity.

Wasn't Bardock's last stand shown in the manga as it is in the special? Freeza commented on Goku looking like Bardock in the manga but I could be wrong about that.

As far as I can remember, it just shows a picture of Bardock's head.

[ekrolo2]

As far as I can remember, it just shows a picture of Bardock's head.

I actually found the image of it, it's not much like you said but from what we can see its pretty close to the special.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2011 ... Manga).png

[rereboy]

As far as I can remember, it just shows a picture of Bardock's head.

It clearly shows a scene from the special:

[Kamiccolo9]

As far as I can remember, it just shows a picture of Bardock's head.

I actually found the image of it, it's not much like you said but from what we can see its pretty close to the special.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2011 ... Manga).png

Ok, I was thinking of the scene I just saw in Kai, my bad.