Dragon Box vs Original Broadcast - The Audio

[Kojiro Sasaki]

There is no Blu-ray box... the video isn't 4:3, it isn't 1080p... it isn't AVC... it isn't even DTS based audio...

I'm sure you have a point, but beyond saying 5.1 audio everything else you said is basically nonsense.

If you didn't get that, it's your problem.

[VegettoEX]

If you didn't get that, it's your problem.

No, it's your problem, because you're not the one explaining yourself properly. We can't have a discussion with you when you're not explaining yourself. I don't know if it's a language problem or a rudeness problem, but it's one of the two.

There is no boxset that lines up with what you've said. It doesn't exist. Furthermore, your specs don't line up with the reality of that type of encoding.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

No, it's your problem, because you're not the one explaining yourself properly. We can't have a discussion with you when you're not explaining yourself. I don't know if it's a language problem or a rudeness problem, but it's one of the two.

There is no boxset that lines up with what you've said. It doesn't exist. Furthermore, your specs don't line up with the reality of that type of encoding.

An audio sample taken from the Dragon Box: The Movies Blu-ray Box Set (4:3, 1080p, ~28Mbps AVC, 5.1 DTS-HD Master Audio)

I have DeLorean. I traveled to the future, I bought Dragon Box: The Movies on Blu-ray, I took a sample of the audio track, I compressed it with Dolby Digital and synced up with Dragon Box:The Movies DVD footage.
Its just a pure fantasy with marketing purposes to drag people's attention and make them dream a litle bit: This is how the audio could sound* on the new potential future release.

I am a guy who is interested in technical stuff. As you all see, it's 90% of what I am writing here. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong, but I find telling me that there is no Blu-ray box of the movies which is presented in 4:3, 1080p, AVC with DTS-HD Master Audio, when I spend 90% of my time here on complaining that there is no such a release, to be a little bit sarcastic. Same goes for the description of my sample. That's what caused my reaction. Excuse me for reading the tone incorrectly.
If I would see someone here writing about “Dragon Box: The Movies Blu-ray box set” I would automatically think that this is some kind of joke.

I never expected that it would cause this much of confusion. I got my lesson.

(* - to not cause another confusion: It would sound better, because my cut is just a quick mix without half of the processing that should be done for the real 5.1 mix)

[dougo13]

Any idea when Japan began broadcasting these series in stereo Hi-Fi sound on television? I would think by the time of the first Hi-Fi stereo VCRs this was well established (1983). So, does this mean the early recordings are also in stereo? Dual channel mono?

As I understand it, the Japanese adopted a different type of transmission as to what eventually became MTS in North America. Any idea though if US recorders can decipher that?

[MarcFBR]

Any idea when Japan began broadcasting these series in stereo Hi-Fi sound on television? I would think by the time of the first Hi-Fi stereo VCRs this was well established (1983). So, does this mean the early recordings are also in stereo? Dual channel mono?

As I understand it, the Japanese adopted a different type of transmission as to what eventually became MTS in North America. Any idea though if US recorders can decipher that?

You're equating technical advances to when production companies that are slow to change would make those changes (along with various cultural reasons that don't need a lot of posting about at the moment.)

Dragon Ball wasn't stereo until GT.

The vast majority of TV productions in Japan now are still stereo, even though we consider 5.1 to be the standard for quite a long time at this point.

[dougo13]

Any idea when Japan began broadcasting these series in stereo Hi-Fi sound on television? I would think by the time of the first Hi-Fi stereo VCRs this was well established (1983). So, does this mean the early recordings are also in stereo? Dual channel mono?

As I understand it, the Japanese adopted a different type of transmission as to what eventually became MTS in North America. Any idea though if US recorders can decipher that?

You're equating technical advances to when production companies that are slow to change would make those changes (along with various cultural reasons that don't need a lot of posting about at the moment.)

Dragon Ball wasn't stereo until GT.

The vast majority of TV productions in Japan now are still stereo, even though we consider 5.1 to be the standard for quite a long time at this point.

Since I'm no longer connected with Japan do you know if ANY productions from that 80's period were transmitted in stereo? I have 2 channel sound tapes from that era that had selective (in Japan) sound (one channel English, the other Japanese). Other than that, how to check if the sound is stereo? I can't recall if the equipment itself detects if the sound is stereo or just recorded in hi-fi. Going to have to check some old equipment manuals I guess...

[bleed0range]

I just read through this thread for the first time and I had no idea something like this existed. I have for years been very saddened by the audio quality of the Japanese version. I never knew someone out there had the recordings to the whole series in the original higher quality broadcast audio!? The examples show just how much more impactful the scenes are when it doesn't sound muffled. It also "de-ages" the anime a bit to have clearer sound. SSJ2 Gohan transformation scene was a million times better as was the Instant Kamehameha. A release of this sort, heck I'd buy every last episode again if I could get it in this kind of quality. I really hope they can manage this.

[dougo13]

Any idea when Japan began broadcasting these series in stereo Hi-Fi sound on television? I would think by the time of the first Hi-Fi stereo VCRs this was well established (1983). So, does this mean the early recordings are also in stereo? Dual channel mono?

As I understand it, the Japanese adopted a different type of transmission as to what eventually became MTS in North America. Any idea though if US recorders can decipher that?

You're equating technical advances to when production companies that are slow to change would make those changes (along with various cultural reasons that don't need a lot of posting about at the moment.)

Dragon Ball wasn't stereo until GT.

The vast majority of TV productions in Japan now are still stereo, even though we consider 5.1 to be the standard for quite a long time at this point.

This from Fuji's website:

"* October 1978 - Fuji TV to telecast the 3rd in Japan that broadcast stereo and bilingual broadcasts (left-right speakers of different language) after Nippon Television and NHK. Impressions is the first stereo baseball game of Meiji Jingu Stadium. - See more at: http://nipponcultures.blogspot.ca/2011/ ... RqzY2.dpuf"

So it appears they were broadcasting in stereo for quite some time before DB. Now, how to find out which shows were broadcast that way. The guy who had the series on tape...any idea what the recordings were made on? Beta HiFi? VHS HiFi? 8mm or Hi-8? Might make a world if difference if you want audio recordings of particular series if you have a HiFi track...

[MarcFBR]

So it appears they were broadcasting in stereo for quite some time before DB. Now, how to find out which shows were broadcast that way. The guy who had the series on tape...any idea what the recordings were made on? Beta HiFi? VHS HiFi? 8mm or Hi-8? Might make a world if difference if you want audio recordings of particular series if you have a HiFi track...

The question never had to do with when companies DID broadcast in stereo, but rather when things were produced and broadcast that way to a degree of normalcy.

The article appears to be talking about noteworthy times they did things, not that they went stereo for the majority of their content (it would help if the translation wasn't crap, but it appears they may only be talking about a single baseball game.)

[kei17]

The first anime ever that aired with stereo audio is episode 99 of the second series of Lupin III on September 3rd in 1979. The first anime series that was entirely done in stereo was Ashita no Joe 2 which took over Lupin III's timeslot. However, most anime shows had been mono until the mid '90s, when the anime industry switched to videotape masters. Some shows that originally aired in mono were later remixed in stereo for home video releases, but over 90% of the anime series until the early '90s were left only with mono sound. In addition, some shows have had their stereo masters lost forever.

For your information, stereo audio recording was already availabe on home video before Hi-Fi. Some of Sony's Betamax models and Panasonic's VHS models featured "Normal Track Stereo."

[dougo13]

The first anime ever that aired with stereo audio is episode 99 of the second series of Lupin III on September 3rd in 1979. The first anime series that was entirely done in stereo was Ashita no Joe 2 which took over Lupin III's timeslot. However, most anime shows had been mono until the mid '90s, when the anime industry switched to videotape masters. Some shows that originally aired in mono were later remixed in stereo for home video releases, but over 90% of the anime series until the early '90s were left only with mono sound. In addition, some shows have had their stereo masters lost forever.

For your information, stereo audio recording was already availabe on home video before Hi-Fi. Some of Sony's Betamax models and Panasonic's VHS models featured "Normal Track Stereo."

Good info. Yes, I remember the split track stereo recorders. In Japan these were a must to be able to use multi-track audio playback as the article says. I have tapes with snippets on them from that period before Beta HiFi was introed. These same decks could have been used for twin audio track playback in areas that warranted it, as in California with its large Spanish speaking population or possibly countries in Europe or Asia. Alas, where I am the communities are split and dual language programming was not available. However, it would be fun to find out what did get mixed in stereo and transmitted that way. Possibly movies or specials which was a staple of Japanese TV in the 1980s. I have a lot of them, some transmitted only a single time. Slow going preserving stuff like that though and with as many tapes as I have in my collection...dang well impossible...

This site:

http://www.betainfoguide.net/Tidbits.htm#timeline

confirms they had decks capable of recording in stereo by 1978 and by 1980 when I first started to get stuff from Japan, it was probably in most home units. Still, how to check for sure? Got to see if the old decks respond to HiFi signals differently, though some decks like my Sony 860D should be able to tell me if a HiFi as well as if a linear audio track is available. As I recall, the Beta HiFi was based off a system where the audio signal was mixed with the video signal, giving it high bandwidth, while the VHS HiFi system was embedded into the depth of the magnetic material. As such it was problematic as the tapes aged. With the Beta decks, as long as you have a good video signal, you have an excellent audio signal as well...

Checked my manual for my Sony SL-2710 and I can tell if the tapes are mono only conventional track (low quality) or else Beta HiFi (much better quality) by adjusting audio output switches. This has some interesting possibilities. I can't remember what equipment my bud used but he was well off and usually had the best equipment available anyway. So, if Beta (or later, VHS) HiFi equipment was available, he probably owned it as soon as it came out...

Also, the DB/Z videotapes that collector had...what format were they? HiFi or conventional audio? If HiFi, even in mono, sound would be pretty good, much better than the optical two track mono which is what is on the DVDs (?).

[kei17]

Also, the DB/Z videotapes that collector had...what format were they? HiFi or conventional audio? If HiFi, even in mono, sound would be pretty good, much better than the optical two track mono which is what is on the DVDs (?).

DB: Betamax with Linear Track Stereo and Beta Noise Reduction
DBZ: Video8 or Hi8 with PCM w/ AFM or only AFM

DB is far worse than Z sounds, but you can still hear the improvement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v6nOiznlxQ

[dougo13]

Also, the DB/Z videotapes that collector had...what format were they? HiFi or conventional audio? If HiFi, even in mono, sound would be pretty good, much better than the optical two track mono which is what is on the DVDs (?).

DB: Betamax with Linear Track Stereo and Beta Noise Reduction
DBZ: Video8 or Hi8 with PCM w/ AFM or only AFM

DB is far worse than Z sounds, but you can still hear the improvement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v6nOiznlxQ

I shall have to check the old tapes. It might be possible that the earliest DB tapes and the later Dr. Slump tapes were recorded in Beta HiFi but I have no way of telling currently. I need to get a set of phones to check the tapes either on my 2710 or else HFR-70. The former uses the small headphone jack while the latter uses the larger jack common with audio gear. I no longer have adapters for stuff like that. The 2710 is in a spot I use to cap old tapes from and is awkward at best to check things from. The 70 is in a better spot but I don't have the right phones anymore. Never thought I'd be digging stuff out again. Well, off to the electronics store to see if I can get what I need...

[dougo13]

Well, preliminary tests seem to indicate that the tracks on the tapes recorded in 1985 that I tested were indeed in Beta HiFi. The 860D definitely lets you know when a Beta HiFi track is present. Tested also with older tapes from my collection that were recorded with Beta mono equipment and sure enough, the light does not come on. I'll try to make a cap so you can see what I mean. This was tested with an episode of Dr. Slump. I'll have to check and see if there were any Dragonball episodes that can be used for a test.

[dougo13]

Anyone know exactly what was transmitted when Dragonball and DBZ were shown in Hawaii? Doubt it was the original audio. Just the optical at that point? Any of the DB tapes seem to be elusive at the moment but it might take me some time to look. Maybe I'll just cap off something as a test that's ultra rare like the Dr. Slump & Queen Millenia crossover material. I did manage to find that tape. Lost it several years ago when I was forced to move. Never got around to capping it...

[lolman196]

Anyone know exactly what was transmitted when Dragonball and DBZ were shown in Hawaii? Doubt it was the original audio. Just the optical at that point? Any of the DB tapes seem to be elusive at the moment but it might take me some time to look. Maybe I'll just cap off something as a test that's ultra rare like the Dr. Slump & Queen Millenia crossover material. I did manage to find that tape. Lost it several years ago when I was forced to move. Never got around to capping it...

I could upload a sample I have from a tape of the Hawaiian broadcast of DBZ. Pretty sure it isn't broadcast audio, but it is from a fansub tape. Would this help?

[NinjaGoku]

Just want to say that everything you are doing to restore the original audio is fantastic, thanks, and keep it up.

[dougo13]

Since the show ran from 1989 in Japan, it's unlikely to be anything but the optical track as the master audio track would have been discarded by the time it shows up in Hawaii in 1992. I have lots of the series starting with Dragonball about mid July 1992. The audio that would be best would be from tapes recorded off air from Fuji TV from 1989 out. I haven't found any of those yet but my collection is so large it could take a long time. I've come upon lots of other shows though that similarly also lost their master recordings because there was no call (at the time) to keep them. I've got to keep looking. The collection is completely disorganized. I packed everything away 5 years ago intending to never look through them again. Now I find people on a quest to preserve the audio from those old series. Go figure. DB also wasn't a priority series for me at the time. I figure I only have a few episodes at best. That's unlike Dr. Slump where I have lots of episodes.

[dougo13]

3 Beta HiFi decks, only one of which will play the tapes flawlessly and that one has a broken video out! Just one of those days...

The audio is definitely Beta HiFi on all the tapes checked so far including episode #1...

Just thought of something! I can output the Beta HiFi deck through the Rf to the Pioneer 650. Take the component outputs from that and the Audio outputs from the Beta deck and run them into the Hauppage HDPVR2 via its analog inputs (luckily I have the adapter for my Hauppage). That should allow me to adjust the tracking as well as preserve the HiFi audio on a capture. It's worth a shot even if it doesn't work. The video quality doesn't matter since its the audio we're after...

[thomas1up]

Out of curiosity, how much audio difference is there between the original master audio from the BigBox CD's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmqXzsMd-qM) and the tapes that Kei has got now?