Would Z have been as successful on US TV if JPN BGM was kept

[Gonstead]

Outside the USA no one is familiar with Faulconer

We here in New Zealand and Australia had the Funimation dub on TV in full after the Saban episodes as well. IIRC a few other places had them as well but the names escape me.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Yeah. I forgot New Zealand and Australia. The UK got another score I think, but feel free to correct me.

[SSJ YUSUKE]

We also got it here in South Africa.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Ok,I was definitely wrong in saying it didnt have reach outside the USA. It definitely did have major reach in English Speaking Countries. And I think India also made its dub with Funimation as basis. I definitely take back what I said. But I still think Toonami didnt have that major an effect on Non-English Speaking Countries.

[Kakacarrottop]

Yeah. I forgot New Zealand and Australia. The UK got another score I think

The UK (and Canada) got the recycled Megaman score for the Android to Buu sagas, while Australia, New Zealand, South Africa(?) and the US got the Faulconer score. As far as i'm aware all of those countries got the Shuki Levy score from the Saban/Ocean/FUNimation collaboration for the first 53 episodes.

[TheBlackPaladin]

The Netherlands also got the Westwood and Blue Water dubs, with Dutch subtitles..........no sure why, but they did.

[UltimateHammerBro]

Ok,I was definitely wrong in saying it didnt have reach outside the USA. It definitely did have major reach in English Speaking Countries. And I think India also made its dub with Funimation as basis. I definitely take back what I said. But I still think Toonami didnt have that major an effect on Non-English Speaking Countries.

The (three) Indian dubs used the Funimation version as a basis, but the soundtrack was Kikuchi's (except for the first 52 episodes which were dubbed from the Saban version and used its music).

The Netherlands also got the Westwood and Blue Water dubs, with Dutch subtitles..........no sure why, but they did.

Yeah, it feels pretty lame to me. IMO, each country should either dub the series or subtitle the original language, but subtitle a dub? Come on.

[Blade]

And the last paragraph is very true and interesting, but I dont see what it has to do with anything.

It's deeply relevant, because arguably, in regard to this debate, context is everything. At the time that the original Dragonball Z dub was put together, there was more than just a genuine precedent for replacement scoring and wholesale localisation changes, from an industry point of view it was outright fashionable, and deemed a successful practice off the back of a number of big hits. The broadcast mediums at play were totally different back then, and how people engaged with media content is barely comparable to the modern situation. The internet technologies that facilitate the modern on-demand world were in their earliest of days, and the network infrastructure was only starting to speed up. For the absolute most part, Anime viewership was totally different, where often the first exposure that Western audiences had to something like Dragonball Z was in it's dubbed form through broadcast television. This was before the boom of BitTorrent and digital fan-subbing, where the appearance of barely intelligible, 15-megabyte-per-episode Real Media Player rips of lossy VHS fansubs online was something that was only starting to happen.

Fast-forward a few years to the mid 2000's, viewership of Anime had totally changed, and spectatorship of material such as Naruto, One Piece and Bleach often came first, long before any Western broadcast, in its original, un-dubbed form via illegally distributed fansubs online. When One Piece was brought to America, much of the negative reaction came from the same core viewership online who were already versed in the Japanese original through illegal means, and therefore already had an ingrained concept of the style, tone and feel of the show. The dubbed version was simply not coherent with what they were accustomed to. Arguably in this day and age, companies like Funimaiton don't replace the score, and preserve more faithful translations purely because they recognise that core demographic that they cater for are the very fans who already know what they're getting when they buy the English version, as they've probably already seen the Japanese original via Funimation's on demand service, Crunchyroll, or less honourable means.

Anime localisation is a totally different matter now, and caters for this more condensed and niche market, which 15 years ago simply didn't exist in the size and fashion it does today. In 2015, you can carry a programming block like Toonami on that sort of viewership potential alone, whereas in 2000, the projected audience for Toonami was a different animal, and those who were versed in the original Japanese materials were a decimal fraction of what they are now.

My point being, in a sort of round-a-bout way, is that when these sorts of debates arise, the predominant temptation appears to be to directly compare modern dubbing practices, such as Funimation's treatment of Kai, to historic dubbing practices, as employed on Dragonball Z, without properly considering the context. Everything is different now, and what works, doesn't work, is fashionable and isn't fashionable in 2015 can't be fairly compared to the situation in the late 90's and early 2000's. It's not just a case of 'Well, they left Kai alone, and it's fine, so why couldn't that have done that with Z?', because as appealing simplistic as that may sound as a philosophical question - it ignores the wealth of sociological and technological factors which shouldn't be overlooked when considering if Dragonball Z would have still found success in America without a replacement score and significant localisation.

DBZ's popularity helped the anime boom in a major way,true. But much like Jason De Marco (I love him to death. He CAN get on my nerves though) you seem to think the USA was most instrumental in the anime boom abroad when this is DEFINITELY not the case. We've had anime looong before Toonami was even a thing. And it didnt just do good, IT DID AMAZING. Anime was humongous in Latin America, Europe, and even places liek the Middle East long before Cartoon Network even aired anime on major networks with major success. And the toys sold like hotcakes. We never got half of what Toonami got. We didnt get Outlaw Star. Gundam Wing flopped.Toonami never was the household name it was in the USA. It did wonders for the anime fandom in the USA.

Toonami was awesome, yes. But you are giving it waaaay too much credit.

I don't mean to say that Toonami was solely responsible for the popularity of Anime, but it was largely responsible for the early 2000's anime boom, both in the US and abroad. The UK had its own version of Toonami, and other broadcasters around the world cottoned on to properties first popularised by Toonami before acquiring them to air. I think it's more than reasonable to argue that the effect of stateside popularity for a lot of those circa 2000 shows can be attributed as a factor in their worldwide proliferation via proxy, as it's a well known fact that broadcasters frequently look abroad, and particularly to America, for cues and inspiration on programming choices. The cultural influence of America on worldwide broadcasting is another topic for another forum, but it's marked and well documented.

Yeah. I forgot New Zealand and Australia. The UK got another score I think, but feel free to correct me.

The UK got the Levi score for the Saiyan/Namek episodes of Z, the Faulconer for the Freeza, Garlic Jr and (first half) of the Trunks Saga (and then briefly again for the 'Fusion Saga'), and the recycled Megaman music and Tom Keenylside score for the rest of Z. For Dragonball, GT and all of the movies and specials, we had the original Japanese music untouched.

[ABED]

I think it's safe to say that most of us were aware that rescoring was the trend back in the day, but it's not exactly the best argument for why the show wouldn't have been as popular. Those decisions were made by men in their 40's who I don't seeing as having the greatest grasp on , and things change all the time. Things become popular that weren't trendy even a few years prior. Anime with the score in tact were becoming more prevalent in the late 90s. There's little reason to think that DBZ couldn't have been at the forefront of the trend. You keep bringing up how things changed, but something had to instigate those changes.

Arguably in this day and age, companies like Funimaiton don't replace the score, and preserve more faithful translations purely because they recognise that core demographic that they cater for are the very fans who already know what they're getting when they buy the English version, as they've probably already seen the Japanese original via Funimation's on demand service, Crunchyroll, or less honourable means.

This is conjecture. Are the people buying the home video releases people who love the original Japanese version or people who love the American version and grew up with it?

[Blade]

I think it's safe to say that most of us were aware that rescoring was the trend back in the day, but it's not exactly the best argument for why the show wouldn't have been as popular. Those decisions were made by men in their 40's who I don't seeing as having the greatest grasp on , and things change all the time. Things become popular that weren't trendy even a few years prior. Anime with the score in tact were becoming more prevalent in the late 90s. There's little reason to think that DBZ couldn't have been at the forefront of the trend. You keep bringing up how things changed, but something had to instigate those changes.

I've not said that it wouldn't have been as popular without the replacement score, my personal opinion, which I've repeated stated, is that it's truly impossible to say because the circumstances are so different to the way they are now. The age of those who made the decisions is irrelevant, and whatever you may think about their grasp on the situation, at the time, with the evidence available to them, and based on industry trends and the work that Saban had previously done on Dragonball Z, not re-scoring and localising Dragonball Z would have been to go against the grain. This is exactly why I'm arguing that this debate is so complex, and perhaps not suited to a Dragonball fan forum - because there's a genuine issue where people are unable to separate the modern situation, contemporary dubbing trends, and their personal attachments to the sanctity of the Japanese original, from looking at the situation objectively.

This is conjecture. Are the people buying the home video releases people who love the original Japanese version or people who love the American version and grew up with it?

It's analytical commentary based on facts and observable trends. In regard to Dragonball Z? Both - but I was referring specifically to modern properties that Funimation handle such as Attack on Titan. The primary demographic for dubbing new titles coming out of Japan is the market who are already familiar with the original. Like I said, the landscape has changed - the core market for dubbed Anime now isn't a general audience, it's a (considerably large) niche, born out of the digital fansub boom and fueled by today's on-demand culture with services such as Crunchyroll.

[ABED]

I didn't say it was unsupported but it's still conjecture. Those of us who think Z would've been about as successful if the original music was kept are also basing it on observable trends. Not only was it moving in that direction anyway, DBZ was successful everywhere.

The primary demographic for dubbing new titles coming out of Japan is the market who are already familiar with the original.

We're not talking about new titles, we're discussing a show that's been off the air for a while. Anime was always niche, nothing has changed. DBZ wasn't popular because anime was more popular back then. 1 - It was a leader in that trend, and 2 - it was popular because the action, humor, and characters.

The age of those who made the decisions is irrelevant, and whatever you may think about their grasp on the situation, at the time, with the evidence available to them, and based on industry trends and the work that Saban had previously done on Dragonball Z, not re-scoring and localising Dragonball Z would have been to go against the grain.

Yes, it's relevant. How many 40 year old businessmen do you know that know what appeals to young children? Do we know the credibility of the information they were basing their decisions on? You keep bringing up trends, but where did they start and why? The decision makers might not be making their choices on the most objective and rational basis as you might believe.

And sometimes it's best to go with your gut and not simply some financial statement or consumer report you read.

We all understand that it's complex, so you aren't saying anything we don't already know. It's not some deep knowledge that you're dropping on everyone.

[MarCas92]

Just look around the world, so many places kept the same score and it ended up being more popular in some countries than it was here in the US. Look at Mexico. BOG made more money there than any other country outside of Japan (source: Box Office Mojo).

I think the real question is: How did DBZ become popular in the states DESPITE the changes?

[Kakacarrottop]

Just look around the world, so many places kept the same score

But we don't know if the show would have been more popular around the world had music similar to the American replacement scores been used.

more popular than it was here in the US

I'll just say this: a video for the FUNimation dub has about 20 million views on Youtube, i'd say about 15 million or so of views were from America. I haven't seen a non FUNimation/Ocean video with more than a million views. The majority of posters here are American. The American DVDs have sold in the millions. You're burying your head in the sand if you think the show is more popular in Latin America/Europe than it is in the US.

[Eire]

I'll just say that Funimation has millions of vievs by the sheer virtue of being in English aka modern Lingua Franca- your guess about countries of vievers is well, guess. Forum? For people outside USA and UK it requires active fluency in language (passive fluency is way easier). Dvds? USA is the biggest market outside of Japan. To have any kind of comparasion you would have to compare population and market situation. IIRC BoG was a smash hit in Latin America- thing you can't say about USA.

On topic: it would be. IMHO the backlash against oryginal score roots mainly in the fact that most of the USA fans take their version for granted. They grew up with it, so oryginal soundtrack was and is a novelty. For me, who grew with oryginal happy, cheerful score is a part of my memetic background. Had USA had oryginal score there wouldn't have been that discussion because there would be no comparasion



Unless we talk about musicals music in cartoons usually takes backseat and you notice it only when it differs possitively. I rarely see revievers complaining about music at first glace. If you have any analysis of.music, it's usually done by people who are already fans and want to discuss aspect of the show they arleady like.

[GS7X7]

"IIRC BoG was a smash hit in Latin America- thing you can't say about USA."

That's really an excellent point.

I know that Poland had two DBZ movies hit theatres, and in Mexico the first episode of the beginning of the Buu saga was a huge deal in the country there.

That more or less says all that needs to be said.

Of course, the implications that replacing the music made it less popular would be unpalatable and hard to accept for those involved in such decisions, so I can understand their reticence not to want to believe that.

[Blade]

Yes, it's relevant. How many 40 year old businessmen do you know that know what appeals to young children?

So what are you saying? That only young people can make informed marketing decisions for the young? Tell that to the entire entertainment industry. The role of the marketing executive is predominantly populated by middle aged men, who are essentially businessmen by trade.

Do we know the credibility of the information they were basing their decisions on? You keep bringing up trends, but where did they start and why? The decision makers might not be making their choices on the most objective and rational basis as you might believe.

Saban's recent history, at the time, of making wholesale localisation changes to foreign aquisitions had been huge success for them. Money talks, and it's a pretty damned credible vindication that there's a market appetite for material of a certain tone and nature when you're literally rolling in the evidence. It therefore would clearly stand to reason at the time that taking a similar approach to Dragonball Z would pay off, and when Funimation took the reigns, their main interest was continuity. They were never going to do anything other than have a replacement score, that was always the trajectory of the property that they acquired, simply off the back of how Saban set the ball rolling. Whilst the people calling the shots at Funimation in the early days weren't particularly experienced, you can't really say the same of Saban, and when Funimation acquired Dragonball Z it's not difficult to see why they chose to shadow the decisions and practices that had been so successful for Saban.

We're not talking about new titles, we're discussing a show that's been off the air for a while. Anime was always niche, nothing has changed. DBZ wasn't popular because anime was more popular back then. 1 - It was a leader in that trend, and 2 - it was popular because the action, humor, and characters.

I can't stress this enough, but the thought process was never: 'How can we sell this to fans of the original?' or 'How can we preserve the sanctity of the original content?', it was 'How can we sell this to the young, male, general audience, who we've had success with in the past, and know nothing about the original, anime, or Japanese culture in general?'

This is the complete opposite of modern dubbing practices, where the target demographic are almost exclusively fans of the original. My point is that back when Dragonball Z was dubbed, this demographic didn't exist in anywhere near the size and scale it does today. In this day and age, if companies were to make wholesale localisation changes, they know there would be a considerable backlash, not because it's objectively crass, but simply because it wouldn't cater to market tastes.

I hope that clears things up, because I really feel like we're going round in circles here.

And sometimes it's best to go with your gut and not simply some financial statement or consumer report you read.

What's to say that they weren't going with their gut instincts? I feel as though you're supplanting the preservation of the sanctity of the original version for artistic or appreciation reasons that only an established fan, or someone well versed in Anime could engender, and these aren't the sorts of people we're talking about, make no mistake. I'm not dismissing your personal opinions on whether it was artistically wrong or right to preserve the original score, but in the context of this debate, from a business perspective there's no place for them - that's not what I'm discussing.

We all understand that it's complex, so you aren't saying anything we don't already know. It's not some deep knowledge that you're dropping on everyone.

Well that's interesting, given that such context and the overarching consequences it has on this debate have hardly been touched upon. The predominant arguments I've seen have more or less compared modern dubbing practices to old ones as though the landscape is like-for-like, in a 'Well, they don't replace the music now, so why did they have to then?' sort of way. So if you're right in saying that everything I've brought to the table is already known and has been considered by everyone debating, then I can only assume that a wealth of important points have been thus far ignored or not properly considered in the discussion.

[ABED]

So what are you saying? That only young people can make informed marketing decisions for the young? Tell that to the entire entertainment industry. The role of the marketing executive is predominantly populated by middle aged men, who are essentially businessmen by trade.

It's guess work and yes, generally the older you are, the more removed you are from what appeals to children. We're not talking about the entertainment industry as a whole. We're talking about a subset with a specific demographic.

Saban was the distributer, they weren't the one's that decided to change the music. Both Saban and FUNi's fortunes were made by acquiring properties that appealed to kids - people or robots destroying stuff.

I can't stress this enough, but the thought process was never: 'How can we sell this to fans of the original?'

I can't stress this enough, this has nothing to do with appealing to fans of the original. That's not my point of contention. You constantly bring up trends but someone has to start the trend, they don't happen in a vacuum.

My point is that back when Dragonball Z was dubbed, this demographic didn't exist in anywhere near the size and scale it does today.

You don't know that. You have no idea that it didn't exist back then. It could very well have existed back then but companies weren't appealing to it. I'm not talking about people who are merely fans of the original.

What's to say that they weren't going with their gut instincts? I feel as though you're supplanting the preservation of the sanctity of the original version for artistic or appreciation reasons that only an established fan, or someone well versed in Anime could engender, and these aren't the sorts of people we're talking about, make no mistake. I'm not dismissing your personal opinions on whether it was artistically wrong or right to preserve the original score, but in the context of this debate, from a business perspective there's no place for them - that's not what I'm discussing.

They weren't going with their gut, FUNi's decisions were based purely on what they thought appealed to Americans based on the trend of changing scores and there's even quotes where Gen says how the new music tested well.

Well that's interesting, given that such context and the overarching consequences it has on this debate have hardly been touched upon.

Maybe not in this thread, but this isn't the first time this issue has come up, and plenty of people understand the "business" reasons.

'Well, they don't replace the music now, so why did they have to then?

Who's to say they had to then?

[Kakacarrottop]

Blade, Saban weren't the ones who changed the music, it was a FUNi decision designed to earn some quick cash on the side for a startup company. Even the pre-Saban Dragon Ball dub made with BLT productions had a replacement score. I don't know much about BLT productions but judging by this they seem to be a western animation company rather than an anime focused company which means they probably have no history of using replacement scores. When FUNi first replaced the music their sole intention was to make money, for example both the Saban and BLT scores were rushed out on CD in the 90s as soon as the dubs debuted, as FUNi were desperate for any sort of revenue back then. If it was a stylistic decision then they wouldn't have used the Kikuchi score for the 1998 Pioneer releases of the first 3 movies nor would have they included the JPN audio on the early 2000s DVD singles.

Both Saban and FUNi's fortunes were made by acquiring properties that appealed to kids

Saban's fortunes were made by screwing people out of music royalties.

[Blade]

It's guess work and yes, generally the older you are, the more removed you are from what appeals to children.

Well, damn. I'll guess I'll give Disney and Ghibli a call and tell them they're doing it wrong.

We're not talking about the entertainment industry as a whole. We're talking about a subset with a specific demographic.

No, yes we are. We're talking about an arm of the entertainment industry, which was much more closely linked to the television industry then than it is now. Again, I feel as though you're comparing the modern incarnation of Funimation, the modern landscape it operates within and the modern demographic it caters to with the past situation. It's chalk and cheese.

I can't stress this enough, this has nothing to do with appealing to fans of the original. That's not my point of contention. You constantly bring up trends but someone has to start the trend, they don't happen in a vacuum.

So what are you saying? You need me to identify exactly where the practice of replacing background music started in order to validate my argument? Are you saying that there wasn't a precedent and fashion for doing so at the time? Or that it hadn't been a regular practice associated with success for the people involved? I have no idea what you're actually arguing here, other than for the sake of it.

You don't know that. You have no idea that it didn't exist back then. It could very well have existed back then but companies weren't appealing to it. I'm not talking about people who are merely fans of the original.

Seriously? You're actually arguing that the market for subtitled Anime at that time could even resemble what it is today in terms of size? Before digital fansubs? Before the Anime boom (which included Dragonball Z) which more or less defined the current landscape? Seriously, get real - there's no argument to be had on this.

They weren't going with their gut, FUNi's decisions were based purely on what they thought appealed to Americans based on the trend of changing scores and there's even quotes where Gen says how the new music tested well.

And why wouldn't that be going with their gut inkling, just because there was market testing involved? A research-based informed business decision isn't necessarily counter-intuitive. It reads like you're saying that the natural gut instinct for anyone would be to do the wholesome and pure thing of keeping the original the way it was. Maybe for you - but you're a fan of the franchise! The way in which you see and interact with the source material is worlds apart, you can't even begin to transpose your own inklings onto what Fukunaga and co. were thinking as though they're some sort of global constant or universally shared moral value.

Maybe not in this thread, but this isn't the first time this issue has come up, and plenty of people understand the "business" reasons.

So I'm supposed to assume that everyone debating within the scope of this thread has read, understands and is versed in every other debate that has taken place on Kanzenshuu? If that's your argument, then why bother with this subject? Which has appeared in many different incarnations on this very forum over the years.

Who's to say they had to then?

That's not even what we're debating, they didn't have to replace it so much as I don't have to eat my greens. Arguing against doing something simply because you don't have to is bordering on nihilism, and undermines practically any line of decision making in anything.

Blade, Saban weren't the ones who changed the music, it was a FUNi decision designed to earn some quick cash on the side for a startup company. Even the pre-Saban Dragon Ball dub made with BLT productions had a replacement score. I don't know much about BLT productions but judging by this they seem to be a western animation company rather than an anime focused company which means they probably have no history of using replacement scores. When FUNi first replaced the music their sole intention was to make money, for example both the Saban and BLT scores were rushed out on CD in the 90s as soon as the dubs debuted, as FUNi were desperate for any sort of revenue back then. If it was a stylistic decision then they wouldn't have used the Kikuchi score for the 1998 Pioneer releases of the first 3 movies nor would have they included the JPN audio on the early 2000s DVD singles.

Shuki Levi was a partner in the company, who he founded with Haim Saban. Funimation weren't making a dime in royalties out of Levi's replacement score. The arrangement with Faulconer was different, and carried a more favorable remuneration agreement for them - but there was nevertheless a core, stylistic decision behind it. Funimation's adaptation of Dragonball Z was about re-packaging, and that applies to the replacement score as much as it does to the changes in dialogue and tone.

[GS7X7]

Wait, what's the whole deal with Saban screwing people out of music royalties?