Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
KaiserNeko wrote:I don't care if Super Saiyan goes away and never comes back. Why?
Because we've already had countless movies and episodes with them. We've already experienced them all. We've had five different iterations, including Super Saiyan God. One might say they became too much of the focus, that they got out of control, that they became totally passe by the end of the series.
And hell, Ultimate Gohan got rid of his need for it, yet people were upset to find him using it in this movie. Why can't we have Son Goku and Vegeta do the same?
To me: Super Saiyan is not the essence of the series. It's an iconic part of it, but 248 episodes/316 manga chapters (including GT, that's 248/508 episodes, so just under half, and not including it, that's 248/444, which is over half), 8 movies, etc. had absolutely no Super Saiyans, and most of those were my favorite parts of the series.
The forms themselves shouldn't matter so much to people. It's the events that surrounded them, the story, that should be the most engaging parts about them. Because all they've ever meant is a power increase, and that's... well, that's actually a pretty simple part of the show. Go Super Saiyan, become more powerful. Become Super Saiyan 2, become even more powerful. The small details vary slightly, but it never really matters in the end. Sure, they were visually interesting, but Son Goku is Son Goku with his iconic black hair any day. Same with Vegeta.
Okay I'm going to have to agree with this, whilst Super Saiyan does look pretty great on some of our favorite characters, some of my favorite movements haven't involved the transformation either. It's got me thinking whether it's going to be a big loss, after all it is just a recolor of two aesthetic features.
I just hate how the non-saiyan characters have to become significantly weaker just because their hair can't turn gold, thus making them not as marketable and irrelevant.
ZazamPow wrote:At that time, there was only one level of Super Saiyan.
Gohan and Vegeta both referred to it as surpassing Super Saiyan, same way Goku would before going with 2.
Because their Super Saiyan form WAS getting stronger, but it was still the same form, at least until Toriyama needed Goku to fight on par with Majin Boo and decided to give him another transformation, likely because he couldn't think of anything else.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I swear, the Gohan fanboys won't be happy unless he just bends over and farts all of Freeza's men into the sun.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
Honestly, this would only make me slightly satisfied. To make me happy, he'd also have to grab Freeza by the tail, drag him to the nearest toilet, and give him swirlies until he submits and calls him "daddy."
Ssj is far more iconic at least in America do to the way dbz was markerted in America. Ssj was introduced in toy stores and marketing ect when the series started abd Ssj Goku, Vegeta and Trunks was a huge deal back in the day.
dbzfan7 wrote:
There was a distinguished difference. He drew SSJ and SSJ2 aura's differently. SSJ2 wasn't a name, but he already knew there were two levels of Super Saiyan. The scenario is either he drew Gohan as an SSJ so he could portray Goku and Vegeta on another level, or he refused to give Gohan the same SSJ2 attributes to portray Goku and Vegeta's fight on another level. That's the first case of Gohan being taken down a peg, so Goku and Vegeta can look better by comparison. We already know Goku and Vegeta are stronger, but to emphasize this he removed features from Gohan. Here we are years later, and this time Gohan is being made a Super Saiyan only, so he isn't looped into the same group as Goku and Vegeta. Essentially having Goku and Vegeta rip off Gohan's special perk, and leave Gohan with something they seemingly parted with. Guess Vegeta ripping off Gohan last movie wasn't enough.
I think you're giving Toriyama too much credit. As unbelievably talented as he is, we should all know by now that he's not a planner, most story developments just came from the top of his head, and he certainly isn't one for grand sweeping themes or much imagery/symbolism. Purposely portraying Goku and Vegeta as being on another level than Gohan by making them look sharper and electrified likely isn't something he thought about. At that time, there was only one level of Super Saiyan. Gohan was originally given the electricity and stuff just to make him look more powerful, then since he was weaker against Dabura, and also the fact that that fight wasn't a very big deal, giving him the same epicness wasn't neccesary. Goku and Vegeta's fight was simply a bigger deal, so Toriyama brought out all the stops.
I think you are giving Toriyama too little credit.
I gets repetitive listening to people saying "Toriyama forgets stuff" "Toriyama doesn't know who Goku is" "Toriyama drew the first chapter of Dragon Ball by accident when he dropped ink on his table" after a while.
Toriyama may be lazy, but he clearly tried to keep some consistency in his work.
I really think a good part of it is when you got into the series and which forms you predominately saw first. You're going to, I think, have a nostalgia or preference for that.
It's why I have a preference for base forms, I got into it during early Namek reruns.
It's possible if you got in during the Cell arc, you might prefer ssj forms over base.
But there's no guarantee either way.
dbzfan7 wrote:
There was a distinguished difference. He drew SSJ and SSJ2 aura's differently. SSJ2 wasn't a name, but he already knew there were two levels of Super Saiyan. The scenario is either he drew Gohan as an SSJ so he could portray Goku and Vegeta on another level, or he refused to give Gohan the same SSJ2 attributes to portray Goku and Vegeta's fight on another level. That's the first case of Gohan being taken down a peg, so Goku and Vegeta can look better by comparison. We already know Goku and Vegeta are stronger, but to emphasize this he removed features from Gohan. Here we are years later, and this time Gohan is being made a Super Saiyan only, so he isn't looped into the same group as Goku and Vegeta. Essentially having Goku and Vegeta rip off Gohan's special perk, and leave Gohan with something they seemingly parted with. Guess Vegeta ripping off Gohan last movie wasn't enough.
I think you're giving Toriyama too much credit. As unbelievably talented as he is, we should all know by now that he's not a planner, most story developments just came from the top of his head, and he certainly isn't one for grand sweeping themes or much imagery/symbolism. Purposely portraying Goku and Vegeta as being on another level than Gohan by making them look sharper and electrified likely isn't something he thought about. At that time, there was only one level of Super Saiyan. Gohan was originally given the electricity and stuff just to make him look more powerful, then since he was weaker against Dabura, and also the fact that that fight wasn't a very big deal, giving him the same epicness wasn't neccesary. Goku and Vegeta's fight was simply a bigger deal, so Toriyama brought out all the stops.
I think you are giving Toriyama too little credit.
I gets repetitive listening to people saying "Toriyama forgets stuff" "Toriyama doesn't know who Goku is" "Toriyama drew the first chapter of Dragon Ball by accident when he dropped ink on his table" after a while.
Toriyama may be lazy, but he clearly tried to keep some consistency in his work.
True, and I wouldn't go so far as to claim he drew the first chapter of Dragon Ball by accident, but it is a fact that Toriyama is not only forgetful of past events, but more importantly, doesn't plan much for future events. Again, the reason Gohan didn't have the typical traits of a SSJ2 against Dabura was because SSJ2 was not yet a thing, Toriyama was just drawing... Gohan. He didn't purposely make Gohan look weak so that Goku and Vegeta would look strong, that's just how it turned out in the end.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I swear, the Gohan fanboys won't be happy unless he just bends over and farts all of Freeza's men into the sun.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
Honestly, this would only make me slightly satisfied. To make me happy, he'd also have to grab Freeza by the tail, drag him to the nearest toilet, and give him swirlies until he submits and calls him "daddy."
Kakarot9001 wrote:
And how would people be not upset with it? Gohan "Mystic" form was a thing only made for him, and now Goku, and Vegeta too? Lame.
One could say the same thing for Super Saiyan it was supposed to be a "Legend", not something anyone with Saiyan blood post Freeza could achieve, and on multiple levels.
Depends on what version of legend you're using. Legend has it that SSJ is the most powerful form a Saiyan takes. Thus it's still legendary.
dbzfan7 wrote:
There was a distinguished difference. He drew SSJ and SSJ2 aura's differently. SSJ2 wasn't a name, but he already knew there were two levels of Super Saiyan. The scenario is either he drew Gohan as an SSJ so he could portray Goku and Vegeta on another level, or he refused to give Gohan the same SSJ2 attributes to portray Goku and Vegeta's fight on another level. That's the first case of Gohan being taken down a peg, so Goku and Vegeta can look better by comparison. We already know Goku and Vegeta are stronger, but to emphasize this he removed features from Gohan. Here we are years later, and this time Gohan is being made a Super Saiyan only, so he isn't looped into the same group as Goku and Vegeta. Essentially having Goku and Vegeta rip off Gohan's special perk, and leave Gohan with something they seemingly parted with. Guess Vegeta ripping off Gohan last movie wasn't enough.
I think you're giving Toriyama too much credit. As unbelievably talented as he is, we should all know by now that he's not a planner, most story developments just came from the top of his head, and he certainly isn't one for grand sweeping themes or much imagery/symbolism. Purposely portraying Goku and Vegeta as being on another level than Gohan by making them look sharper and electrified likely isn't something he thought about. At that time, there was only one level of Super Saiyan. Gohan was originally given the electricity and stuff just to make him look more powerful, then since he was weaker against Dabura, and also the fact that that fight wasn't a very big deal, giving him the same epicness wasn't neccesary. Goku and Vegeta's fight was simply a bigger deal, so Toriyama brought out all the stops.
It's not about symbolism and sweeping imagery. I'm not giving credit at all. Toriyama is simply simplifying things to get the point across. Statements apparently aren't enough. He wanted to portray Goku and Vegeta as stronger, so he simply drew Gohan's form differently. If Gohan had the same aura and lightning, people would classify Gohan in the same class as Goku and Vegeta. Hence Toriyama drew him without those perks. That's why in this movie Gohan is a Super Saiyan. If Gohan uses his Ultimate State, people might think he's also a god. So they rectify that by making Gohan not use that state anymore. Toriyama already drew SSJ2 Gohan at the tenkaichi budokai, then never drew him like that again so he wouldn't be compared to Goku and Vegeta.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Big Momma wrote:One could say the same thing for Super Saiyan it was supposed to be a "Legend", not something anyone with Saiyan blood post Freeza could achieve, and on multiple levels.
Yeah... But I had no problem with Mirai Trunks being the second SSJ ever introduced to the series, because it was very well done. The thing is that I don't see why they want to ditch the Super Saiyans and making Gohan transform SSJ again, I really hope the movie explains all that stuff
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
I think Kaio-Ken has more drawbacks than the Super Saiyan itself. Might be wrong, though. But going by this, if Super Saiyan won't be used anymore, let alone Kaio-Ken.
Dyno wrote:I think Kaio-Ken has more drawbacks than the Super Saiyan itself. Might be wrong, though. But going by this, if Super Saiyan won't be used anymore, let alone Kaio-Ken.
Yeah it does, but I doubt they will bring Kaio-Ken back. Toriyama has probably forgotten this too.
It probably wouldn't make any sense either since we don't even know if Goku can use this anymore and he hasn't used this in a long time. Super Kaio-Ken filler doesn't count.
If they do though, I am ready for Kaio-Ken!!!
JacobYBM wrote:Art is subjective but boobies are forever.
Dyno wrote:I think Kaio-Ken has more drawbacks than the Super Saiyan itself. Might be wrong, though. But going by this, if Super Saiyan won't be used anymore, let alone Kaio-Ken.
Goku can handle the strain up to Kaioken x10 on Namek. It shouldn't give him that much issue. Unless the villain surivies. But a SSG Goku powered up by a Kaioken x20!
Dyno wrote:I think Kaio-Ken has more drawbacks than the Super Saiyan itself. Might be wrong, though. But going by this, if Super Saiyan won't be used anymore, let alone Kaio-Ken.
Yeah it does, but I doubt they will bring Kaio-Ken back. Toriyama has probably forgotten this too.
It probably wouldn't make any sense either since we don't even know if Goku can use this anymore and he hasn't used this in a long time. Super Kaio-Ken filler doesn't count.
If they do though, I am ready for Kaio-Ken!!!
I'd rather they retcon Kaio-ken as being the wrong way of tapping into God power and that's why it comes with those disadvantages and Godku looks a bit like Kaio-ken Goku.
At least then we can have it out of the way.
TheGmGoken wrote:Goku can handle the strain up to Kaioken x10 on Namek. It shouldn't give him that much issue. Unless the villain surivies. But a SSG Goku powered up by a Kaioken x20!
If Dragon Ball Heroes is correct and "God Goku" is indeed a transformation, then I can't see both working together. But maybe is possible if "God Goku" is a "power-up-kinda-transformation" like Son Gohan's "mystic/ultimate" form.
Dyno wrote:I think Kaio-Ken has more drawbacks than the Super Saiyan itself. Might be wrong, though. But going by this, if Super Saiyan won't be used anymore, let alone Kaio-Ken.
Goku can handle the strain up to Kaioken x10 on Namek. It shouldn't give him that much issue. Unless the villain surivies. But a SSG Goku powered up by a Kaioken x20!
Kaio-ken! ( ´ ▽ ` )
My favorite power-up prior to ssjg.
dbgtFO wrote:
I'd rather they retcon Kaio-ken as being the wrong way of tapping into God power and that's why it comes with those disadvantages and Godku looks a bit like Kaio-ken Goku.
At least then we can have it out of the way.
That's a nice idea. God Krilin and God Yamcha will be in Fukkatsu no "C", then.
"The life is the hardest video games of ever. Because you have only one life and the powers are kinda lame. And sometimes a stage takes years"
"The life is a game, the objective of the game is trying to find the objective of the game, and then, finish the game"
--by Ranely Jr
dbzfan7 wrote:
There was a distinguished difference. He drew SSJ and SSJ2 aura's differently. SSJ2 wasn't a name, but he already knew there were two levels of Super Saiyan. The scenario is either he drew Gohan as an SSJ so he could portray Goku and Vegeta on another level, or he refused to give Gohan the same SSJ2 attributes to portray Goku and Vegeta's fight on another level. That's the first case of Gohan being taken down a peg, so Goku and Vegeta can look better by comparison. We already know Goku and Vegeta are stronger, but to emphasize this he removed features from Gohan. Here we are years later, and this time Gohan is being made a Super Saiyan only, so he isn't looped into the same group as Goku and Vegeta. Essentially having Goku and Vegeta rip off Gohan's special perk, and leave Gohan with something they seemingly parted with. Guess Vegeta ripping off Gohan last movie wasn't enough.
I think you're giving Toriyama too much credit. As unbelievably talented as he is, we should all know by now that he's not a planner, most story developments just came from the top of his head,and he certainly isn't one for grand sweeping themes or much imagery/symbolism. Purposely portraying Goku and Vegeta as being on another level than Gohan by making them look sharper and electrified likely isn't something he thought about. At that time, there was only one level of Super Saiyan. Gohan was originally given the electricity and stuff just to make him look more powerful, then since he was weaker against Dabura, and also the fact that that fight wasn't a very big deal, giving him the same epicness wasn't neccesary. Goku and Vegeta's fight was simply a bigger deal, so Toriyama brought out all the stops.
A( epic)fight between goku and vegeta was hinted back at the tournament, with more hints after gokus fight with yokan; Why else would he have them to face in the first round of 16 matches only to then have them leave the tournament a match before theirs?
