Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Dyno wrote:I think Kaio-Ken has more drawbacks than the Super Saiyan itself. Might be wrong, though. But going by this, if Super Saiyan won't be used anymore, let alone Kaio-Ken.
Yeah it does, but I doubt they will bring Kaio-Ken back. Toriyama has probably forgotten this too.
It probably wouldn't make any sense either since we don't even know if Goku can use this anymore and he hasn't used this in a long time. Super Kaio-Ken filler doesn't count.
If they do though, I am ready for Kaio-Ken!!!
I'd rather they retcon Kaio-ken as being the wrong way of tapping into God power and that's why it comes with those disadvantages and Godku looks a bit like Kaio-ken Goku.
At least then we can have it out of the way.
Long ago, after witnessing the power of the Super Saiyan God on ancient Planet Vegeta, the Kais attempted to create a technique to replicate this power. They succeeded, but were unable to reach the power of the Super Saiyan God without tearing their own bodies apart. In fact, even the strongest of Kais were only able to multiply their power a few times before straining. The technique was abandoned, until years later Son Goku was taught by the North Kai, and due to his real Saiyan genetics, he was able to pick the technique up instantly.
Friezaa! wrote:
ZazamPow wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
There was a distinguished difference. He drew SSJ and SSJ2 aura's differently. SSJ2 wasn't a name, but he already knew there were two levels of Super Saiyan. The scenario is either he drew Gohan as an SSJ so he could portray Goku and Vegeta on another level, or he refused to give Gohan the same SSJ2 attributes to portray Goku and Vegeta's fight on another level. That's the first case of Gohan being taken down a peg, so Goku and Vegeta can look better by comparison. We already know Goku and Vegeta are stronger, but to emphasize this he removed features from Gohan. Here we are years later, and this time Gohan is being made a Super Saiyan only, so he isn't looped into the same group as Goku and Vegeta. Essentially having Goku and Vegeta rip off Gohan's special perk, and leave Gohan with something they seemingly parted with. Guess Vegeta ripping off Gohan last movie wasn't enough.
I think you're giving Toriyama too much credit. As unbelievably talented as he is, we should all know by now that he's not a planner, most story developments just came from the top of his head,and he certainly isn't one for grand sweeping themes or much imagery/symbolism. Purposely portraying Goku and Vegeta as being on another level than Gohan by making them look sharper and electrified likely isn't something he thought about. At that time, there was only one level of Super Saiyan. Gohan was originally given the electricity and stuff just to make him look more powerful, then since he was weaker against Dabura, and also the fact that that fight wasn't a very big deal, giving him the same epicness wasn't neccesary. Goku and Vegeta's fight was simply a bigger deal, so Toriyama brought out all the stops.
A( epic)fight between goku and vegeta was hinted back at the tournament, with more hints after gokus fight with yokan; Why else would he have them to face in the first round of 16 matches only to then have them leave the tournament a match before theirs?
That means Toriyama wanted to have them fight, not that he planned out all the events leading to Majin Vegeta. His original plan very well could have been to just have them fight at the tournament.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I swear, the Gohan fanboys won't be happy unless he just bends over and farts all of Freeza's men into the sun.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
Honestly, this would only make me slightly satisfied. To make me happy, he'd also have to grab Freeza by the tail, drag him to the nearest toilet, and give him swirlies until he submits and calls him "daddy."
Dyno wrote:I think Kaio-Ken has more drawbacks than the Super Saiyan itself. Might be wrong, though. But going by this, if Super Saiyan won't be used anymore, let alone Kaio-Ken.
Yeah it does, but I doubt they will bring Kaio-Ken back. Toriyama has probably forgotten this too.
It probably wouldn't make any sense either since we don't even know if Goku can use this anymore and he hasn't used this in a long time. Super Kaio-Ken filler doesn't count.
If they do though, I am ready for Kaio-Ken!!!
I'd rather they retcon Kaio-ken as being the wrong way of tapping into God power and that's why it comes with those disadvantages and Godku looks a bit like Kaio-ken Goku.
At least then we can have it out of the way.
I've been assuming this since I first saw the thing. I find it nearly impossible to think that coloring was accidental.
KaiserNeko wrote:I don't care if Super Saiyan goes away and never comes back. Why?
Because we've already had countless movies and episodes with them. We've already experienced them all. We've had five different iterations, including Super Saiyan God. One might say they became too much of the focus, that they got out of control, that they became totally passe by the end of the series.
And hell, Ultimate Gohan got rid of his need for it, yet people were upset to find him using it in this movie. Why can't we have Son Goku and Vegeta do the same?
To me: Super Saiyan is not the essence of the series. It's an iconic part of it, but 248 episodes/316 manga chapters (including GT, that's 248/508 episodes, so just under half, and not including it, that's 248/444, which is over half), 8 movies, etc. had absolutely no Super Saiyans, and most of those were my favorite parts of the series.
The forms themselves shouldn't matter so much to people. It's the events that surrounded them, the story, that should be the most engaging parts about them. Because all they've ever meant is a power increase, and that's... well, that's actually a pretty simple part of the show. Go Super Saiyan, become more powerful. Become Super Saiyan 2, become even more powerful. The small details vary slightly, but it never really matters in the end. Sure, they were visually interesting, but Son Goku is Son Goku with his iconic black hair any day. Same with Vegeta.
It's not like 7.99 of the ten story arcs did just fine without it, an Ultra Divine Water here and a Goku near-death injury there, and the Buu arc leaves the characters with so many bloody tools at their disposal that we get topics about how the final showdown with Buu was pure pandering five times to Chicago. The Buu arc and beyond, between its power-ups and glee in running wild with the divine, demonic, and otherwise supernatural, is the one time in the entire series where a linear power jump isn't necessary to make a fun enemy. Toriyama's going hog wild in his last year turned out to be a blessing; of course he's not flawless, Super Saiyan God certainly should have dropped the moniker.
JulieYBM wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Reading all the comments and interviews, my conclusion is: nobody knows what the hell is going on.
dbzfan7 wrote:
There was a distinguished difference. He drew SSJ and SSJ2 aura's differently. SSJ2 wasn't a name, but he already knew there were two levels of Super Saiyan. The scenario is either he drew Gohan as an SSJ so he could portray Goku and Vegeta on another level, or he refused to give Gohan the same SSJ2 attributes to portray Goku and Vegeta's fight on another level. That's the first case of Gohan being taken down a peg, so Goku and Vegeta can look better by comparison. We already know Goku and Vegeta are stronger, but to emphasize this he removed features from Gohan. Here we are years later, and this time Gohan is being made a Super Saiyan only, so he isn't looped into the same group as Goku and Vegeta. Essentially having Goku and Vegeta rip off Gohan's special perk, and leave Gohan with something they seemingly parted with. Guess Vegeta ripping off Gohan last movie wasn't enough.
I think you're giving Toriyama too much credit. As unbelievably talented as he is, we should all know by now that he's not a planner, most story developments just came from the top of his head, and he certainly isn't one for grand sweeping themes or much imagery/symbolism. Purposely portraying Goku and Vegeta as being on another level than Gohan by making them look sharper and electrified likely isn't something he thought about. At that time, there was only one level of Super Saiyan. Gohan was originally given the electricity and stuff just to make him look more powerful, then since he was weaker against Dabura, and also the fact that that fight wasn't a very big deal, giving him the same epicness wasn't neccesary. Goku and Vegeta's fight was simply a bigger deal, so Toriyama brought out all the stops.
It's not about symbolism and sweeping imagery. I'm not giving credit at all. Toriyama is simply simplifying things to get the point across. Statements apparently aren't enough. He wanted to portray Goku and Vegeta as stronger, so he simply drew Gohan's form differently. If Gohan had the same aura and lightning, people would classify Gohan in the same class as Goku and Vegeta. Hence Toriyama drew him without those perks. That's why in this movie Gohan is a Super Saiyan. If Gohan uses his Ultimate State, people might think he's also a god. So they rectify that by making Gohan not use that state anymore. Toriyama already drew SSJ2 Gohan at the tenkaichi budokai, then never drew him like that again so he wouldn't be compared to Goku and Vegeta.
I think it's far more likely an answer that he drew Gohan like he did at the Tenkaichi Budokai because it was a more dramatic moment and in dramatic moments you want to have a lot of "showmanship." Flashy stuff ya know? It was his first real big moment of going SSJ2 and so he drew it as awesome as his first transformation into SSJ2 back with Cell. Further times do not need the same flashy, dramatic she-bang. The lightning and what not is just for show. It's drawn better because of how important the scene is. You can also argue that the lightning and what-not is there when powered up with lots of ki. The lightning wasn't ALWAYS present when Gohan fought Cell.
Clearly Gohan is SSJ2 during the hatching of Buu/Dabura fight... whether it's as flashy as the way he was drawn before or not. I think Majin Vegeta/Goku fight is as "epic" looking as it is because it's a milestone fight that is SUPPOSED to be huge and epic. That's all there is to it. Same reason animation quality shoots up on important episodes.
I don't get this whole Toriyama is trying to make Gohan look weak compared to Goku/Vegeta angle people keep going with. Gohan is super strong and could probably be as strong as them if he wanted to, but his character doesn't want to anymore. He wanted to be like Piccolo and then like his dad. Then he grew up (without his dad around mind you). It makes perfect sense from a character standpoint that he wouldn't be the center of attention anymore.
Last edited by bleed0range on Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Honestly I would prefer crappy quality scans that I can read rather than good quality scans in Japanese.
AjayLikesGaming wrote:It's 2015, why do we still use these old scanlations.
Full colour + Kanzenban:
Spoiler:
English mothafucka do you speak it?
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I swear, the Gohan fanboys won't be happy unless he just bends over and farts all of Freeza's men into the sun.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
Honestly, this would only make me slightly satisfied. To make me happy, he'd also have to grab Freeza by the tail, drag him to the nearest toilet, and give him swirlies until he submits and calls him "daddy."
Considering scanlations are outright banned on this forum, I'd think you would value your account more than being able to read lines of dialogue from a story we should all know at this point. In this case, the dialogue isn't even relevant to the discussion at hand.
bleed0range wrote:I think it's far more likely an answer that he drew Gohan like he did at the Tenkaichi Budokai because it was a more dramatic moment and in dramatic moments you want to have a lot of "showmanship." Flashy stuff ya know? It was his first real big moment of going SSJ2 and so he drew it as awesome as his first transformation into SSJ2 back with Cell. Further times do not need the same flashy, dramatic she-bang. The lightning and what not is just for show. It's drawn better because of how important the scene is. You can also argue that the lightning and what-not is there when powered up with lots of ki. The lightning wasn't ALWAYS present when Gohan fought Cell.
Spoiler:
Clearly Gohan is SSJ2 here whether it's as flashy as the way he was drawn before or not. I think Majin Vegeta/Goku fight is as "epic" looking as it is because it's a milestone fight that is SUPPOSED to be huge and epic. That's all there is to it. Same reason animation quality shoots up on important episodes.
I don't get this whole Toriyama is trying to make Gohan look weak compared to Goku/Vegeta angle people keep going with. Gohan is super strong and could probably be as strong as them if he wanted to, but his character doesn't want to anymore. He wanted to be like Piccolo and then like his dad. Then he grew up (without his dad around mind you). It makes perfect sense from a character standpoint that he wouldn't be the center of attention anymore.
You're missing the point. His aura is completely drawn like a Super Saiyan, and not a Super Saiyan 2. The guidebooks even contradict each other on this topic. One says he was an SSJ2, one doesn't. There is no reason to not draw Gohan with the same aura as with all SSJ's without the answer being some form of nerf. This isn't about Gohan being as capable as Vegeta or Goku. That's not my qualm. It's the fact they continue to screw him over. Toriyama purposely drew the aura's differently between the two forms. Also Gohan's SSJ/SSJ2 hair style is the same once you see him in the other world. Both times he's drawn the same. Adding more to the confusion at hand.
Here in this movie they want to take away his Ultimate state, because then he'd be compared to Goku and Vegeta. People would ask if Gohan got the same ritual treatment as Goku and Vegeta whom are gods who don't need SSJ. Some might get confused and think Gohan got the power up too. So they drop him to Super Saiyan to avoid the problem, effectively killing another of his traits. This isn't about Gohan being a tough fighter or the toughest. It's about fucking respect. That's something they don't give. Instead they steal his traits and hand them over to Goku and Vegeta. What's next? Goku and Vegeta learn the candy beam for some wacky shenanigans? Or they take away the regeneration factor of Boo or Piccolo?
Oh and people clamoring onto humans and others fighting again, we had that before. Anyone recall movie 3? Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha, and even Chaozu fought. They all got their asses kicked and needed Goku to pretty much one-shot the mooks for them. Seeing as how Gohan and Piccolo are down, we're getting a repeat most likely with Goku and Vegeta saving everyone.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
bleed0range wrote:I think it's far more likely an answer that he drew Gohan like he did at the Tenkaichi Budokai because it was a more dramatic moment and in dramatic moments you want to have a lot of "showmanship." Flashy stuff ya know? It was his first real big moment of going SSJ2 and so he drew it as awesome as his first transformation into SSJ2 back with Cell. Further times do not need the same flashy, dramatic she-bang. The lightning and what not is just for show. It's drawn better because of how important the scene is. You can also argue that the lightning and what-not is there when powered up with lots of ki. The lightning wasn't ALWAYS present when Gohan fought Cell.
Spoiler:
Clearly Gohan is SSJ2 here whether it's as flashy as the way he was drawn before or not. I think Majin Vegeta/Goku fight is as "epic" looking as it is because it's a milestone fight that is SUPPOSED to be huge and epic. That's all there is to it. Same reason animation quality shoots up on important episodes.
I don't get this whole Toriyama is trying to make Gohan look weak compared to Goku/Vegeta angle people keep going with. Gohan is super strong and could probably be as strong as them if he wanted to, but his character doesn't want to anymore. He wanted to be like Piccolo and then like his dad. Then he grew up (without his dad around mind you). It makes perfect sense from a character standpoint that he wouldn't be the center of attention anymore.
You're missing the point. His aura is completely drawn like a Super Saiyan, and not a Super Saiyan 2. The guidebooks even contradict each other on this topic. One says he was an SSJ2, one doesn't. There is no reason to not draw Gohan with the same aura as with all SSJ's without the answer being some form of nerf. This isn't about Gohan being as capable as Vegeta or Goku. That's not my qualm. It's the fact they continue to screw him over. Toriyama purposely drew the aura's differently between the two forms. Also Gohan's SSJ/SSJ2 hair style is the same once you see him in the other world. Both times he's drawn the same. Adding more to the confusion at hand.
Here in this movie they want to take away his Ultimate state, because then he'd be compared to Goku and Vegeta. People would ask if Gohan got the same ritual treatment as Goku and Vegeta whom are gods who don't need SSJ. Some might get confused and think Gohan got the power up too. So they drop him to Super Saiyan to avoid the problem, effectively killing another of his traits. This isn't about Gohan being a tough fighter or the toughest. It's about fucking respect. That's something they don't give. Instead they steal his traits and hand them over to Goku and Vegeta. What's next? Goku and Vegeta learn the candy beam for some wacky shenanigans? Or they take away the regeneration factor of Boo or Piccolo?
Oh and people clamoring onto humans and others fighting again, we had that before. Anyone recall movie 3? Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha, and even Chaozu fought. They all got their asses kicked and needed Goku to pretty much one-shot the mooks for them. Seeing as how Gohan and Piccolo are down, we're getting a repeat most likely with Goku and Vegeta saving everyone.
Well actually, this is all just speculation on your part since nobody anywhere has said that they are making Gohan a SSJ to keep him from being confused as a God character. In fact, it seems more likely that Toriyama forgot about the "mystic" form when BOG came out then anything. It sounds really silly to say they "stole" his traits. What traits? Having a powered up base level? Who says Gohan is the only one who can have a powered up base? We don't even really know EXACTLY how the god forms work? Maybe it's not access to all of your hidden power in your base form, but rather just a huge increase in power in general once it's absorbed. Goku WAS a SSJ when he fought Beerus in the upper atmosphere of Earth. He was keeping up with him after losing the "God" form but still a SSJ.
Which means Goku can still be a SSJ too. I never really got the impression that Gohan was so special he had to have the "mystic" form all to himself anyway. It seems silly.
More then likely Whis is training Goku and Vegeta to just NOT use SSJ instead of their forms being like Mystic was supposed to be. In other words, they can still power up with their SSJ forms and be more powerful but they are being trained to become that powerful WITHOUT it to be able to fight better. Not quite the same thing as Gohan as they may be having to train to acquire this ability.
Last edited by bleed0range on Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AjayLikesGaming wrote:Considering scanlations are outright banned on this forum, I'd think you would value your account more than being able to read lines of dialogue from a story we should all know at this point. In this case, the dialogue isn't even relevant to the discussion at hand.
Oh crap
dbzfan7 wrote:
bleed0range wrote:I think it's far more likely an answer that he drew Gohan like he did at the Tenkaichi Budokai because it was a more dramatic moment and in dramatic moments you want to have a lot of "showmanship." Flashy stuff ya know? It was his first real big moment of going SSJ2 and so he drew it as awesome as his first transformation into SSJ2 back with Cell. Further times do not need the same flashy, dramatic she-bang. The lightning and what not is just for show. It's drawn better because of how important the scene is. You can also argue that the lightning and what-not is there when powered up with lots of ki. The lightning wasn't ALWAYS present when Gohan fought Cell.
Spoiler:
Clearly Gohan is SSJ2 here whether it's as flashy as the way he was drawn before or not. I think Majin Vegeta/Goku fight is as "epic" looking as it is because it's a milestone fight that is SUPPOSED to be huge and epic. That's all there is to it. Same reason animation quality shoots up on important episodes.
I don't get this whole Toriyama is trying to make Gohan look weak compared to Goku/Vegeta angle people keep going with. Gohan is super strong and could probably be as strong as them if he wanted to, but his character doesn't want to anymore. He wanted to be like Piccolo and then like his dad. Then he grew up (without his dad around mind you). It makes perfect sense from a character standpoint that he wouldn't be the center of attention anymore.
You're missing the point. His aura is completely drawn like a Super Saiyan, and not a Super Saiyan 2. The guidebooks even contradict each other on this topic. One says he was an SSJ2, one doesn't. There is no reason to not draw Gohan with the same aura as with all SSJ's without the answer being some form of nerf. This isn't about Gohan being as capable as Vegeta or Goku. That's not my qualm. It's the fact they continue to screw him over. Toriyama purposely drew the aura's differently between the two forms. Also Gohan's SSJ/SSJ2 hair style is the same once you see him in the other world. Both times he's drawn the same. Adding more to the confusion at hand.
Here in this movie they want to take away his Ultimate state, because then he'd be compared to Goku and Vegeta. People would ask if Gohan got the same ritual treatment as Goku and Vegeta whom are gods who don't need SSJ. Some might get confused and think Gohan got the power up too. So they drop him to Super Saiyan to avoid the problem, effectively killing another of his traits. This isn't about Gohan being a tough fighter or the toughest. It's about fucking respect. That's something they don't give. Instead they steal his traits and hand them over to Goku and Vegeta. What's next? Goku and Vegeta learn the candy beam for some wacky shenanigans? Or they take away the regeneration factor of Boo or Piccolo?
Oh and people clamoring onto humans and others fighting again, we had that before. Anyone recall movie 3? Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha, and even Chaozu fought. They all got their asses kicked and needed Goku to pretty much one-shot the mooks for them. Seeing as how Gohan and Piccolo are down, we're getting a repeat most likely with Goku and Vegeta saving everyone.
To be fair, you haven't seen the movie yet. Wouldn't you feel silly if you were making these complaints when Battle of Gods was being marketed, then the film comes out and you find Gohan is actually Mystic just like always? They could always change the Super Saiyan scene we saw in the trailers, or perhaps he's going Super Saiyan in that one scene for a completely different reason, maybe to scare Freeza or something. You should keep an open mind until you actually know what's happening in the movie, nobody has disrespected Gohan yet.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I swear, the Gohan fanboys won't be happy unless he just bends over and farts all of Freeza's men into the sun.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
Honestly, this would only make me slightly satisfied. To make me happy, he'd also have to grab Freeza by the tail, drag him to the nearest toilet, and give him swirlies until he submits and calls him "daddy."
If you really stop to think, maybe Goku doesn't even still have god power. Maybe he is just training under Whis in the hopes to unlocking it and Vegeta is too... and the method of training under Whis is to learn how to become as powerful as a SSJ WITHOUT becoming one at all. I mean they don't outright say anyone becomes a SSJ God or uses that power. Which would mean that Freeza isn't as strong as Beerus either. Perhaps Beerus and Whis just do not interfere because they are Gods and do not have to anyway.
I can't say anything about liking the exclusion of super saiyans or not until I see how they handle the god concept they introduced in BoG. But believe me, after I watch this movie, I will say something.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
bleed0range wrote:Well actually, this is all just speculation on your part since nobody anywhere has said that they are making Gohan a SSJ to keep him from being confused as a God character. In fact, it seems more likely that Toriyama forgot about the "mystic" form when BOG came out then anything. It sounds really silly to say they "stole" his traits. What traits? Having a powered up base level? Who says Gohan is the only one who can have a powered up base? We don't even really know EXACTLY how the god forms work? Maybe it's not access to all of your hidden power in your base form, but rather just a huge increase in power in general once it's absorbed. Goku WAS a SSJ when he fought Beerus in the upper atmosphere of Earth. He was keeping up with him after losing the "God" form but still a SSJ.
Which means Goku can still be a SSJ too. I never really got the impression that Gohan was so special he had to have the "mystic" form all to himself. It seems silly.
Speculation is right, though it's essentially what they did in the past with Goku and Vegeta before where they changed Gohan's traits so they don't match Goku and Vegeta. There's really no excuse to not have given him the SSJ2 aura and lighting if he was an SSJ2, unless there was meant to be emphasis on Gohan saying "Goku and Vegeta must be fighting on a level beyond Super Saiyan"
How do you forget something that was fixed 2 years ago? For someone who said they reread the manga, that's very hard to miss 2 years in a row. He was heavily part of the last script too. The "Ultimate" state is literally his hidden potential brought out and beyond it's limits. It's the pinnacle of all those past hidden power hints finally being brought out. What Goku and Vegeta have is in concept different, but in execution it's the same. Basically to have all your power in base form without the need for Super Saiyan forms no more. That's pretty much what the "Ultimate" Saikyo no Senshi is. Unless they some how caused another fuck up which Yusuke Watanabe did address in Battle of Gods, they literally have Goku and Vegeta stealing his trait. Why can't Gohan keep his trait while they just use SSJ God forms? Seems like it's cause they think it's shit. SSJ God literally just comes in, and then seemingly may leave forever like there was no point to having it be a Super Saiyan form at all. Why can't we just have Skinny red hair Goku, and whatever Vegeta is? Why can't we just have everyone rock the black hair either? It's most likely because they don't want to confuse people.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
mikey4111 wrote:Wait, how do we know that Vegeta has God power now? Just cause he doesn't go Super Saiyan?
Just seems very, very likely because:
a) He has the same training symbol as Goku. If he's not a god, he's dead weight training with Whis.
b) A Dragon Ball Heroes trailer has them both powering up with the avatar characters. The boy and girl go SSJ, but Goku and Vegeta do not.
c) The original poster had red lightning behind Goku and blue lightning behind Vegeta, signifying a sense of equality in power.
d) In the trailer, Goku gets his ass kicked, and Vegeta is clearly seen stepping up and powering up with some sort of blue aura. Really, him not being a SSJ in this movie can only mean one thing.
Last edited by fadeddreams5 on Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
We don't know if he has ssjg. It's all theory atm.
He's training with Gokû under Whis, and he's on the poster in a way that implies he's equal in some way to Gokû. He and Gokû also have matching lightning reflections. Gokû's is the magenta color of his ssjg hair, and Vegeta's is blue, meaning or not meaning anything.
Last edited by Chuquita on Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
fadeddreams5 wrote:I can't say anything about liking the exclusion of super saiyans or not until I see how they handle the god concept they introduced in BoG. But believe me, after I watch this movie, I will say something.
I now have my doubts either one of them has God power. I think they're just training under Whis because they want to learn as much as they can and he suggests to stop using SSJ. I mean what are the odds that BOTH of them did the ritual to become a God and then BOTH absorbed the power so they didn't have to keep the transformation but could keep the power. Goku abosrbing the power was a fluke that he didn't even mean to do... he didn't understand how he did it. Beerus sees potential in him (as did Whis I'm sure). But that doesn't mean they will be able to be in the same class as Beerus or Whis constantly. Maybe it was a one time thing. Maybe we've all been assuming too much?
fadeddreams5 wrote:I can't say anything about liking the exclusion of super saiyans or not until I see how they handle the god concept they introduced in BoG. But believe me, after I watch this movie, I will say something.
I now have my doubts either one of them has God power. I think they're just training under Whis because they want to learn as much as they can and he suggests to stop using SSJ. I mean what are the odds that BOTH of them did the ritual to become a God and then BOTH absorbed the power so they didn't have to keep the transformation but could keep the power. Goku abosrbing the power was a fluke that he didn't even mean to do... he didn't understand how he did it. Beerus sees potential in him (as did Whis I'm sure). But that doesn't mean they will be able to be in the same class as Beerus or Whis constantly. Maybe it was a one time thing. Maybe we've all been assuming too much?
I feel neither will actually go SSJG (good riddance, imo), but have attained a new power thanks to becoming one in the first place. We don't know whether their auras will change or if they'll simply stick to their base forms. The whole thing is so ambiguous. Pretty exciting. I hope for some sort of surprise.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
fadeddreams5 wrote:I can't say anything about liking the exclusion of super saiyans or not until I see how they handle the god concept they introduced in BoG. But believe me, after I watch this movie, I will say something.
I now have my doubts either one of them has God power. I think they're just training under Whis because they want to learn as much as they can and he suggests to stop using SSJ. I mean what are the odds that BOTH of them did the ritual to become a God and then BOTH absorbed the power so they didn't have to keep the transformation but could keep the power. Goku abosrbing the power was a fluke that he didn't even mean to do... he didn't understand how he did it. Beerus sees potential in him (as did Whis I'm sure). But that doesn't mean they will be able to be in the same class as Beerus or Whis constantly. Maybe it was a one time thing. Maybe we've all been assuming too much?
I feel neither will actually go SSJG (good riddance, imo), but have attained a new power thanks to becoming one in the first place. We don't know whether their auras will change or if they'll simply stick to their base forms. The whole thing is so ambiguous. Pretty exciting. I hope for some sort of surprise.
Maybe Goku is trying to learn how to unlock the God powers hidden with-in him again and Vegeta is trying to learn how to unlock whatever random surge of power he got when Beerus hit Bulma. So they both train under Whis or Beerus. It's not like they have to be anywhere close to their powers in order to train under either one of them.
Given Beerus' comment in the trailer, I am inclined to believe he could defeat Freeza at any moment but has no desire to interfere with trivial things beneath him like whether or not Earth is destroyed.
I don't think Vegeta has ever gained any god powers at all. Personally.
Okay guys, we know some serious stuff is going to go down with Frieza, and Goku and Vegeta and the gang, but are there any thoughts on what a potential B-plot might be? Maybe something involving Jaco? Or perhaps Trunks and Goten could actually play a small part in the movie away from the battlefield with other minor characters?
mogi67 wrote:I kind of view Dragon Ball the same way I view mythology. It can be convoluted, contradictory, but always a treasure.
Chuquita wrote:
That was a monster tease.
*Anxiously waits for transformation to finish. Finishes. No magenta hair. Head desks.*
He has the Magenta hair in the poster so we'll probably see it in the movie.
Maybe it turns to that when he charges his ki ? or when he absorbs an attack like he did in BOG ?
I'm really hoping so. He's all over the latest Heroes mission stuff.
Also! Bringing this over from the Heroes thread because this thread moves faster and it's more likely someone with a higher level of translation knowledge than I will see it if I post here.
The monster tease video mentioned, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZCteh5PEw4 these words that pop up right after he transforms,
じふんチーム
アビリティいこか
神を超えたサイヤ人
パワーアップした
I get from that 2nd to last line "saiyajin that surpasses god". Sounds ssj2-ish to me. Beyond the beyond and all.
Is this actually anything? Is it just Heroes fluff in the vein of ssj4 Brolli?
