Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[Doctor.]

I'm pretty sure Beerus and Whis wouldn't interfere with mortal affairs unless they directly affect them in any way.

Beerus said he'd kill Freeza next time he saw him, so I doubt Beerus plays by the rules.

[Tennessaiyan]

Back on topic... I wonder what will be Frieza's reaction to Trunks not being around, since he stated from the Ch. 1 Fukkatsu no F manga that he wouldn't be satisfied till he got revenge on the two Saiyans who defeated him. Maybe he'll settle on taking out his revenge on Vegeta after Goku?

[ekrolo2]

Going by real world logic, nothing Vegeta has done since then justifies his past crimes. However, going by DBZ logic, he is now considered pure-hearted and good. ^.^

The other thing is, everyone keeps bringing up Vegeta's relationship with Freeza, but everyone seems to be overlooking Freeza's relationship with Vegeta.

Goku may not have killed Freeza, but he might as well have destroyed him. Mecha-Freeza was a joke, a shadow of his former self. There's enmity on both sides here. That's what makes a good hero/villain relationship.

The Vegeta/Freeza relationship, on the other hand, is almost entirely one-sided. Vegeta's always been a joke to Freeza. He's a pet that occasionally tries to bite back. For all that Vegeta despised Freeza, Freeza just didn't care.

People also like to fall back on Vegeta needing to avenge his race and whatnot while forgetting Goku took that burden upon himself when he faced Freeza. He partly fought in their name and their memory as Vegeta had asked him to do.

Freeza was beaten by a Saiyan, and Saiyans avenged by a Saiyan. That reason is kinda already covered, so I don't see why it's brought back up constantly.

Could be a case of Vegeta asking Goku to do it simply because he really thought he was done for after Freeza shot him so he really had no choice. I can totally see him being bitter about not being the one to beat Freeza after being revived though, he was even furious at Goku for not finishing the job when Cold & Freeza came to Earth I believe.

[Birusu16]

Actually, Trunks' win was nothing to write home about, it was merely done as a means of establishing dread for the next arc. "The guy that took out Freeza and his daddy without trouble came back in time cuz he needs our help to stop these other two approaching enemies that he can barely even scratch."

As for Gohan... he actually was on track to be the MC until Toriyama felt it didn't fit with Gohan's personality and personal philosophy or preferences. Kid was a bookworm scared of his own power. But that is why he got the kill there.

And since when has Vegeta not gotten credit? His legion of fanboys constantly hype him, he's one of the most popular characters for it, he actually gets to do more than go down in one hit when fighting most any of the villains... he's gotten plenty of credit. Piccolo/Krillin, however, get next to none for any of the stuff they do. Let them kill Freeza then. They both have a reason to want him dead too.

It's still a win against one of the biggest villains in the DB franchise and he's nowhere near as significant as Vegeta.

And regardless of whether Gohan was intended to be the main character or not, he isn't.

And I'm talking from an in universe perspective. I could care less about what the fans say about him. In universe it's Goku who receives the majority of the credit despite the fact that Cell and Buu's defeat without Vegeta's interference wouldn't have been possible.

[ShadowWolf87]

Considering that it was usually his fault?

And yes, Gohan was the main character. Toriyama says as much himself.

So now we're assigning blame? Ok. Well lets see, Goku decided to spare Freeza and even give him some of his energy, which no doubt had played a part in Freeza surviving Namek's explosion. Goku decided to give Cell a sensu bean just to make it fair before his fight against Gohan.

If you want to sit here and play the blame game then we certainly can. The facts are that Vegeta has done more than enough to show he deserves a big moment.

And no, Gohan was certainly never the main character of this series. It's always been Goku. He may have been the main character for an arc, but never the main character of the entire series.

The Buu Arc starts out with Toriyama writing "And replacing Goku as the main character is his son, Gohan."

Gohan was also more or less the co-star of the Saiyan Arc, and had way more focus on him in the early to mid Freeza Arc than Goku did. And the Cell Games were all about finishing up the hidden-power plotline that had been running since Gohan was introduced.

Goku gave Freeza enough of his Ki to float away from the planet before it exploded, not enough to survive a planet going Kaboom. It's kinda silly to suggest that little energy would be enough to help him survive that. Plus he kinda USED that energy to shoot at Goku.

Goku giving Cell a Senzu bean was meant both to keep what was technically a tournament fight a "fair fight" and to play head games with Cell, make him think Gohan was a threat, which he was. Gohan, however, then refused to play his part as he hated himself when he let his rage take over. Becoming that cruel scared him. But had he not done that, it wouldn't have mattered.

But yes, Gohan was being shifted into MC status until Toriyama opted to not try to drastically shift Gohan's character.

[TheGmGoken]

He gained a large vocal fan base and makes money. That's the only reason *if* he's beating Freeza.

Another reason is it makes sense from a story standpoint.

No it doesn't. Vegeta doesn't give a damn about his past no more.

, I'm counting all non-canon works, including GT and Toei.

Then who cares about Freeza? He already came back and died 5 or 6 times

GOKU haven't had a major win since Freeza

Er... Buu? 0_o

Honestly, guys. Who is the one with the "major" wins. Does anyone really need to answer that?

Goku didnt defeat Boo. He lost. Hell everyone defeated Boo as the Earth, Namek Dragon, and others provided energy.

When was the last time he beat someone? 2008 OVA?

GOKU haven't had a major win since Freeza

Guess we all forgot he defeated Buu.

He lost.

[Birusu16]

Considering that it was usually his fault?

And yes, Gohan was the main character. Toriyama says as much himself.

So now we're assigning blame? Ok. Well lets see, Goku decided to spare Freeza and even give him some of his energy, which no doubt had played a part in Freeza surviving Namek's explosion. Goku decided to give Cell a sensu bean just to make it fair before his fight against Gohan.

If you want to sit here and play the blame game then we certainly can. The facts are that Vegeta has done more than enough to show he deserves a big moment.

And no, Gohan was certainly never the main character of this series. It's always been Goku. He may have been the main character for an arc, but never the main character of the entire series.

The Buu Arc starts out with Toriyama writing "And replacing Goku as the main character is his son, Gohan."

Gohan was also more or less the co-star of the Saiyan Arc, and had way more focus on him in the early to mid Freeza Arc than Goku did. And the Cell Games were all about finishing up the hidden-power plotline that had been running since Gohan was introduced.

And yet the arc concluded with Goku beating Buu. Goku also had several more fights in the arc. He had much more panel time. So yea, I don't put any stock into those statements. I go off what I see and what's shown is that Goku is and was always the MC of the Buu arc.

[Kamiccolo9]

And regardless of whether Gohan was intended to be the main character or not, he isn't.

And I'm talking from an in universe perspective. I could care less about what the fans say about him. In universe it's Goku who receives the majority of the credit despite the fact that Cell and Buu's defeat without Vegeta's interference wouldn't have been possible.

It's not what fans say, it's what the author said.

Cell and Buu would have never gotten to that point if not for Vegeta being a dick. Goku bore some responsibility for Buu as well, but Vegeta's the one who decided to let himself get possessed in the first place.

[Cetra]

Goku didnt defeat Boo. He lost. Hell everyone defeated Boo as the Earth, Namek Dragon, and others provided energy.

Then I guess that Genkidama came out of nowhere and the Super Saiyajin who was necessary to actually push it to Boo was Mr. Satan. As things were not even the universe was enough to beat Boo without Goku as a Super Saiyajin.

[ShadowWolf87]

Actually, Trunks' win was nothing to write home about, it was merely done as a means of establishing dread for the next arc. "The guy that took out Freeza and his daddy without trouble came back in time cuz he needs our help to stop these other two approaching enemies that he can barely even scratch."

As for Gohan... he actually was on track to be the MC until Toriyama felt it didn't fit with Gohan's personality and personal philosophy or preferences. Kid was a bookworm scared of his own power. But that is why he got the kill there.

And since when has Vegeta not gotten credit? His legion of fanboys constantly hype him, he's one of the most popular characters for it, he actually gets to do more than go down in one hit when fighting most any of the villains... he's gotten plenty of credit. Piccolo/Krillin, however, get next to none for any of the stuff they do. Let them kill Freeza then. They both have a reason to want him dead too.

It's still a win against one of the biggest villains in the DB franchise and he's nowhere near as significant as Vegeta.

And regardless of whether Gohan was intended to be the main character or not, he isn't.

And I'm talking from an in universe perspective. I could care less about what the fans say about him. In universe it's Goku who receives the majority of the credit despite the fact that Cell and Buu's defeat without Vegeta's interference wouldn't have been possible.

Really now? Pretty sure Vegeta's gotten a good bit of props from them for the times he's helped out.

But you also have to understand that a lot of those scenarios are scenarios Vegeta actually himself made worse or made happen. Cell only reached his Perfect Form because Vegeta not only allowed, but assisted.

You gotta take the bad moves with the good there.

It's still a win against one of the biggest villains in the DB franchise and he's nowhere near as significant as Vegeta.

...he's the MC's son who was on the way to becoming the MC himself, how is he not as significant??

[ShadowWolf87]

Goku didnt defeat Boo. He lost. Hell everyone defeated Boo as the Earth, Namek Dragon, and others provided energy.

Then I guess that Genkidama came out of nowhere and the Super Saiyajin who was necessary to actually push it to Boo was Mr. Satan.

"That Genkidama idea" actually came from Vegeta. Guess we forgot about that too.

[sintzu]

Then I guess that Genkidama came out of nowhere and the Super Saiyajin who was necessary to actually push it to Boo was Mr. Satan.

It'll be funny if Satan gets credited for Freeza's defeat.

[Birusu16]

Goku gave Freeza enough of his Ki to float away from the planet before it exploded, not enough to survive a planet going Kaboom. It's kinda silly to suggest that little energy would be enough to help him survive that. Plus he kinda USED that energy to shoot at Goku.

Goku giving Cell a Senzu bean was meant both to keep what was technically a tournament fight a "fair fight" and to play head games with Cell, make him think Gohan was a threat, which he was. Gohan, however, then refused to play his part as he hated himself when he let his rage take over. Becoming that cruel scared him. But had he not done that, it wouldn't have mattered.

But yes, Gohan was being shifted into MC status until Toriyama opted to not try to drastically shift Gohan's character.

1. Yet he survived, which kind of makes your entire point moot. If Goku had never gave him the energy in the first place then it's very unlikely he even survives.
2. And I could care less why Goku gave Cell the senzu bean. It was foolish and the blame lies with him for doing it.
3. Shifted is the key word. He may have intended for Gohan to become the MC of the series, but it never happened.

[Tennessaiyan]

Goku didnt defeat Boo. He lost. Hell everyone defeated Boo as the Earth, Namek Dragon, and others provided energy.

Then I guess that Genkidama came out of nowhere and the Super Saiyajin who was necessary to actually push it to Boo was Mr. Satan.

^This.

Say what you will about about whether Goku was the one to ultimately defeat Buu (whis he was) but he was, at the very least, the vessel.

[Kamiccolo9]

3. Shifted is the key word. He may have intended for Gohan to become the MC of the series, but it never happened.

Because Goku was totally the focal point of everything in the Buu Arc before the final fight, right?

[Tennessaiyan]

"That Genkidama idea" actually came from Vegeta. Guess we forgot about that too.

Doesn't make any difference. Goku won. He saved the day. He was the hero.

[Birusu16]

Actually, Trunks' win was nothing to write home about, it was merely done as a means of establishing dread for the next arc. "The guy that took out Freeza and his daddy without trouble came back in time cuz he needs our help to stop these other two approaching enemies that he can barely even scratch."

As for Gohan... he actually was on track to be the MC until Toriyama felt it didn't fit with Gohan's personality and personal philosophy or preferences. Kid was a bookworm scared of his own power. But that is why he got the kill there.

And since when has Vegeta not gotten credit? His legion of fanboys constantly hype him, he's one of the most popular characters for it, he actually gets to do more than go down in one hit when fighting most any of the villains... he's gotten plenty of credit. Piccolo/Krillin, however, get next to none for any of the stuff they do. Let them kill Freeza then. They both have a reason to want him dead too.

It's still a win against one of the biggest villains in the DB franchise and he's nowhere near as significant as Vegeta.

And regardless of whether Gohan was intended to be the main character or not, he isn't.

And I'm talking from an in universe perspective. I could care less about what the fans say about him. In universe it's Goku who receives the majority of the credit despite the fact that Cell and Buu's defeat without Vegeta's interference wouldn't have been possible.

Really now? Pretty sure Vegeta's gotten a good bit of props from them for the times he's helped out.

But you also have to understand that a lot of those scenarios are scenarios Vegeta actually himself made worse or made happen. Cell only reached his Perfect Form because Vegeta not only allowed, but assisted.

You gotta take the bad moves with the good there.

It's still a win against one of the biggest villains in the DB franchise and he's nowhere near as significant as Vegeta.

...he's the MC's son who was on the way to becoming the MC himself, how is he not as significant??

1. Really? So show me where Vegeta gets anywhere near the amount of credit that Goku and Gohan get?
2. So you want to play the blame game to? Because I can do that with Goku as well. He's made situations worse as well yet I don't see anyone holding that against him.
3. I'm talking about Trunks, not Gohan.

[Birusu16]

3. Shifted is the key word. He may have intended for Gohan to become the MC of the series, but it never happened.

Because Goku was totally the focal point of everything in the Buu Arc before the final fight, right?

He certainly had much more focus than Gohan. Fight with Vegeta. Teaches Goten and Trunks the fusion basics. Fight with Buu. Fusion with Vegeta and a fight with Buu. Another fight with Buu. Kills Buu. Is the one to fight Uub.

[Kamiccolo9]

3. Shifted is the key word. He may have intended for Gohan to become the MC of the series, but it never happened.

Because Goku was totally the focal point of everything in the Buu Arc before the final fight, right?

He certainly had much more focus than Gohan.

.....When?

[Cetra]

Goku didnt defeat Boo. He lost. Hell everyone defeated Boo as the Earth, Namek Dragon, and others provided energy.

Then I guess that Genkidama came out of nowhere and the Super Saiyajin who was necessary to actually push it to Boo was Mr. Satan.

"That Genkidama idea" actually came from Vegeta. Guess we forgot about that too.

And Kaioh is the one who invented it. That does not change the fact that Goku is the one who knows and uses it.