Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

Gohan not being a SSJ2 makes NO SENSE from a story perspective. D7 confirms he was a SSJ2, that's enough for me.

The characters were all taking stupid pills all throughout the Buu Arc. I think Mr. Satan spiked all the food at the Budokai.

Can't be that, they were plenty dumb in the Android & Cell stuff before that.

[Kamiccolo9]

Gohan not being a SSJ2 makes NO SENSE from a story perspective. D7 confirms he was a SSJ2, that's enough for me.

The characters were all taking stupid pills all throughout the Buu Arc. I think Mr. Satan spiked all the food at the Budokai.

Can't be that, they were plenty dumb in the Android & Cell stuff before that.

Then it was Chiaotzu. That's what he was doing off-screen the whole time.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Personally, I think there was a retcon of the Budokai, but I'm not forcing that view on anyone.

[Skar]

I know that the guidebooks aren't 100% correct because they do contain a few obvious mistakes here & there.

I don't know if you're really getting my point. Why would you consider them reliable sources when they made obvious mistakes that took us less than a few minutes to figure out? If they're not putting much effort into double-checking the manga to make sure everything is consistent first then I would question their other information. Are you saying you accept everything else without it ever crossing your mind that it was just a random guess that happened to fit and not what Toriyama actually intended?

Eh? The guidebooks came out after the series ended.

Why does that matter? Was Toei's staff that was working on the anime fired after it was completed? If they're making guidebooks for the anime why wouldn't they consult the people who wrote the anime, movies, and GT? They could do that to make sure they have accurate information instead of having to fill in the blanks with their own assumptions.

And the guidebooks are supplementary books. It is them that are supposed to follow the story, not the other way around.

So you agree then that Toriyama doesn't care about complying with the guidebooks? Would that honestly not make you question their authenticity when the author himself could care less about comply with what they came up with? If he really approved of every word in the guidebooks and considers every bit of information in there canon then he would've reread the guidebooks to refresh his memory like he did with the manga. In order for the guidebooks to be useful to the fans the original author would have to take their information seriously and take it into consideration.

We don't know if Vegeta was a SS1 or SS2.

Didn't Goku say Vegeta became a "great super saiyan"? If he just meant Super Saiyan in general then that could also mean SSJ2 but why wouldn't he say a "great super saiyan 2"? Goku was the one who named the form that when he demonstrated it to Buu during the Buu saga and Beerus and Battle of Gods.

This doesn't stop them from being multipliers like the guidebooks state.

Okay but that doesn't really address anything else I wrote in that comment:
"If they're all a set multiplier like in the SEG then he wouldn't have mentioned SSJ1 separately from the two later forms. Instead he would've only said they were all powered-up variations of base. If he cared to stay consistent with the SEG he could've just had Vegeta transform into SSJ3 or mention something about his base being that much stronger than Goku's. In the SEG itself he's questioning the 50x multiplier so I think that's clear enough that he either doesn't care about complying with their numbers or that they didn't even run these numbers by him before publishing them."

The V-Jump magazines are not guidebooks approved by Toriyama, so no.

Sorry but they were written by Shuiesha and some of the info in V-Jump was reused in the Daizenshuu so they should be the same level. Shuiesha already has Toriyama's approval to release the manga in the first place.

Daizenshuu 2 implies he was a Super Saiyan.
Daizenshuu 7 states he was a Super Saiyan 2.

It would've made more sense to perhaps ask Toriyama during one of those many interviews instead including both possibilities to be safe.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't know how anyone else sees it, but Toriyama's artwork for the manga was always more consistent than his seat-of-his-pants story telling. You can trust the art. Gohan was drawn like a Super Saiyan 2 only once, and drawn like a Super Saiyan 1 every other time, and that's how you know which form he was using and when. It's really that simple. Take that, and base your theories and explanations of the story on top of it, not the other way around.

I guess that is the most important point in this debate. My theory is that Toriyama was already going with the idea of getting rid of Super Saiyan upgrades starting with Gohan. He stopped being SS2 since Spopovitch stole his energy and after tapped into that power with just his SS1 form. Though, I admit the theory has a flaw, none of characters comment on that possibility and we have Gohan speaking of SS2 to Kaioshin when they were about to fight Babidi and Dabra.

[xmysticgohanx]

Sparks don't appear when Goku and Vegeta turn SSJ2 in BoG

Toriyama didn't draw/animate BoG, and Toei was never consistent with sparks.

It still happened in canon, it doesn't matter what out of universe reason there is for it

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

It still happened in canon, it doesn't matter what out of universe reason there is for it

That's really grasping at straws.

Toriyama purposely didn't make Gohan with sparks because he knew in 20 years a movie would be made where Toei Animation wouldn't draw sparks on SS2 Goku and Vegeta? lol.

Seriously, tell me why Gohan at the Budokai has sparks, and Gohan against Dabra doesn't. Give me one good reason.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't know if you're really getting my point. Why would you consider them reliable sources when they made obvious mistakes that took us less than a few minutes to figure out? If they're not putting much effort into double-checking the manga to make sure everything is consistent first then I would question their other information. Are you saying you accept everything else without it ever crossing your mind that it was just a random guess that happened to fit and not what Toriyama actually intended?

Because they are huge, it's perfectly natural for them to have a few mistakes here & there. I'm not blindly accepting everything the guidebooks say. If they are contradicted by the manga, then they are incorrect. If they aren't contradicted, why ignore them?

Why does that matter? Was Toei's staff that was working on the anime fired after it was completed? If they're making guidebooks for the anime why wouldn't they consult the people who wrote the anime, movies, and GT? They could do that to make sure they have accurate information instead of having to fill in the blanks with their own assumptions.

How do you know they didn't consult the anime writers or Toriyama when it came to the manga?

Didn't Goku say Vegeta became a "great super saiyan"? If he just meant Super Saiyan in general then that could also mean SSJ2 but why wouldn't he say a "great super saiyan 2"? Goku was the one who named the form that when he demonstrated it to Buu during the Buu saga and Beerus and Battle of Gods.

He could mean a great Super Saiyan in general, or a great Super Saiyan 1. It makes more sense for him to be a SS2 IMO, since he became more powerful than he normally is.

Okay but that doesn't really address anything else I wrote in that comment:
"If they're all a set multiplier like in the SEG then he wouldn't have mentioned SSJ1 separately from the two later forms. Instead he would've only said they were all powered-up variations of base. If he cared to stay consistent with the SEG he could've just had Vegeta transform into SSJ3 or mention something about his base being that much stronger than Goku's. In the SEG itself he's questioning the 50x multiplier so I think that's clear enough that he either doesn't care about complying with their numbers or that they didn't even run these numbers by him before publishing them."

How was he inconsistent with the SEG by not having Vegeta become a SS3?

Sorry but they were written by Shuiesha and some of the info in V-Jump was reused in the Daizenshuu so they should be the same level. Shuiesha already has Toriyama's approval to release the manga in the first place.

I don't care if they were written by Shueisha, they weren't approved by Toriyama from what we know.

[Skar]

Because they are huge, it's perfectly natural for them to have a few mistakes here & there. I'm not blindly accepting everything the guidebooks say. If they are contradicted by the manga, then they are incorrect. If they aren't contradicted, why ignore them?

Many scenes in the manga could have more than one interpretation so just because something isn't contradicted doesn't mean it's what the author intended. They were filling in the blanks with what they thought could fit. The Daizenshuu includes power levels for Dragonball and some of those were borrowed from V-Jump. Sure those could fit but many other guesses could fit as well. I guarantee all those DB power levels came entirely from Shueisha because I doubt they asked Toriyama after the manga ended "Mr. Toriyama you know that power level concept you abandoned after the Frieza saga? Would you mind jumping back more than ten years to give us some random power levels for early Dragonball?". On the Battle Power Guide here they even note that those power levels were to track Goku's power throughout the series so the numbers themselves don't really matter and it was just done to get the point across that Goku started with a low power level and then by training he became a lot stronger. To convey that message they went with numbers that could fit but that doesn't mean they're the only possible numbers.

I'm curious but how many of these mistakes come from the over 95% that was taken directly from the manga? Or did all the contradictions come from the less than 5% that was new information from Shuiesha?

How do you know they didn't consult the anime writers or Toriyama when it came to the manga?

On the Databook Guide here they note that Toriyama had little to no involvement with the guidebooks. They include interviews with Toriyama so if they consulted him with every detail of the guidebook then why wouldn't they include these interviews as proof? I'm pretty sure they included some interviews with the anime staff but if they consulted Toei with every detail of the anime-exclusive guidebooks then why didn't they document those too?

He could mean a great Super Saiyan in general, or a great Super Saiyan 1. It makes more sense for him to be a SS2 IMO, since he became more powerful than he normally is.

I agree it would make more sense for him to be a SSJ2 but I was just saying that Goku seems to imply he was only a SSJ1.

How was he inconsistent with the SEG by not having Vegeta become a SS3?

Because according to the SEG, SSJ3 is a solid 4x stronger than SSJ2 and 8x stronger than SSJ1. If SSJ1 Vegeta surpassed SSJ3 Goku then either his base was 8x stronger than Goku's or SSJ1 is not a solid 50x multiplier and could increase more from there. The second idea would fit with what Toriyama said about SSJ2 and SSJ3 being only powered-up variations of SSJ1 which is different than the SEG implies that they're all just power-ups of base. What he is saying might mean that SSJ1 could be trained to surpass the other two.

I don't care if they were written by Shueisha, they weren't approved by Toriyama from what we know.

Why would they even write anything in V-Jump about Dragonball if they didn't have his approval? Are you saying they wrote whatever they wanted in V-Jump and then only thought to ask Toriyama's approval when writing the guidebooks? It's pretty clear that Toriyama gave them the approval to compile the guidebooks themselves and not that he actually verified every detail. One of the most well known pieces of information in the Daizenshuu was the 50x multiplier for SSJ. Many years later in an interview for the SEG Toriyama is questioning the 50x multiplier so that means they didn't even run these numbers by him before publishing the Daizenshuu. If they did back then he would've given his opinion at that time and he wouldn't be questioning it so many years later. That was one of the biggest pieces of information in there so if they didn't tell him about that then who knows what else he wasn't aware of that went in there.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Many scenes in the manga could have more than one interpretation so just because something isn't contradicted doesn't mean it's what the author intended. They were filling in the blanks with what they thought could fit. The Daizenshuu includes power levels for Dragonball and some of those were borrowed from V-Jump. Sure those could fit but many other guesses could fit as well. I guarantee all those DB power levels came entirely from Shueisha because I doubt they asked Toriyama after the manga ended "Mr. Toriyama you know that power level concept you abandoned after the Freeza saga? Would you mind jumping back more than ten years to give us some random power levels for early Dragonball?". On the Battle Power Guide here they even note that those power levels were to track Goku's power throughout the series so the numbers themselves don't really matter and it was just done to get the point across that Goku started with a low power level and then by training he became a lot stronger. To convey that message they went with numbers that could fit but that doesn't mean they're the only possible numbers.

OK...? I know that the information there aren't from Toriyama, although some of them could be. The V-Jump battle powers we have gotten are anime-related, the only battle powers that are manga-related are those from the Weekly Shonen Jump, so I guess they are canon for me, as long as they don't contradict the manga.

I'm curious but how many of these mistakes come from the over 95% that was taken directly from the manga? Or did all the contradictions come from the less than 5% that was new information from Shuiesha?

Listen to the Podcast Episode #0265 for this.

On the Databook Guide here they note that Toriyama had little to no involvement with the guidebooks. They include interviews with Toriyama so if they consulted him with every detail of the guidebook then why wouldn't they include these interviews as proof? I'm pretty sure they included some interviews with the anime staff but if they consulted Toei with every detail of the anime-exclusive guidebooks then why didn't they document those too?

I'm not saying that Toriyama/Toei were heavily involved in the guidebooks, I'm saying that there could have been times that the creators of the guidebooks asked them for more info, like, maybe Tenshinhan being an alien came from Toriyama. But these are just assumptions that I make.

Because according to the SEG, SSJ3 is a solid 4x stronger than SSJ2 and 8x stronger than SSJ1. If SSJ1 Vegeta surpassed SSJ3 Goku then either his base was 8x stronger than Goku's or SSJ1 is not a solid 50x multiplier and could increase more from there. The second idea would fit with what Toriyama said about SSJ2 and SSJ3 being only powered-up variations of SSJ1 which is different than the SEG implies that they're all just power-ups of base. What he is saying might mean that SSJ1 could be trained to surpass the other two.

You just answered this.

[xmysticgohanx]

It still happened in canon, it doesn't matter what out of universe reason there is for it

That's really grasping at straws.

Toriyama purposely didn't make Gohan with sparks because he knew in 20 years a movie would be made where Toei Animation wouldn't draw sparks on SS2 Goku and Vegeta? lol.

Seriously, tell me why Gohan at the Budokai has sparks, and Gohan against Dabra doesn't. Give me one good reason.

No, it means Toriyama didn't put sparks on Gohan because SSJ2s don't need to have sparks. Tell me one good reason why Gohan didn't use SSJ2 vs Buu's shell thing and why Kaioshin was surprised that Gohan had that much power when in your viewpoint he was only a SSJ.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

That makes no sense.

~ SS2 Kid Gohan has consistent sparks
~ SS2 Teen Gohan (Budokai) has consistent sparks
~ SS2 Goku has consistent sparks
~ SS2 Vegeta has consistent sparks
~ Gohan vs. Dabura has no sparks... for the lulz of it? Toriyama's gonna change the way he draws SS2 Gohan only a few chapters after Gohan's last time using the form while leaving the drawing style the same for Goku and Vegeta for what exactly?

Tell me one good reason why Gohan didn't use SSJ2 vs Buu's shell thing and why Kaioshin was surprised that Gohan had that much power when in your viewpoint he was only a SSJ.

Because he couldn't? Goku's telling Gohan to get angry like he did against Cell. What did Gohan do against Cell? Super Saiyan 2!

[Skar]

OK...? I know that the information there aren't from Toriyama, although some of them could be. The V-Jump battle powers we have gotten are anime-related, the only battle powers that are manga-related are those from the Weekly Shonen Jump, so I guess they are canon for me, as long as they don't contradict the manga.

We're back to that again. On that page it shows Kami being weaker than King Piccolo. Have you ever met a Dragonball fan who has watched the King Piccolo saga and assumed that Kami was weaker than King Piccolo? The only people who would assume that are maybe those who have never seen it. As in if you showed them a picture of young King Piccolo and Old Kami they might assume the younger guy is stronger. How could V-Jump make such an obvious mistake? Nappa's power level doesn't make much sense either. Goku was "over 8000" and later Vegeta tells Nappa he could win if he calmed down and focused. Goku said he was a "tough bastard" and thought the fight would take longer. That wouldn't make sense if he was half as strong as Goku.

Listen to the Podcast Episode #0265 for this.

If you already know them all can't you list them here? Unless it's because most of the inconsistencies came from the 5% that's supposed to be new information?

I'm not saying that Toriyama/Toei were heavily involved in the guidebooks, I'm saying that there could have been times that the creators of the guidebooks asked them for more info, like, maybe Tenshinhan being an alien came from Toriyama. But these are just assumptions that I make.

I agree they asked for some info from Toriyama and Toei but it wasn't much since there weren't many interviews in the guidebooks. If Toriyama did decide that Tien was an alien, SSJ2 was 2x SSJ1, Goku's PL was only 10 then they most likely would have documented the interview where he actually said it. So far you haven't responded to my comment about Toriyama questioning the 50x multiplier from the Daizenshuu.
"One of the most well known pieces of information in the Daizenshuu was the 50x multiplier for SSJ. Many years later in an interview for the SEG Toriyama is questioning the 50x multiplier so that means they didn't even run these numbers by him before publishing the Daizenshuu. If they did back then he would've given his opinion at that time and he wouldn't be questioning it so many years later. That was one of the biggest pieces of information in there so if they didn't tell him about that then who knows what else he wasn't aware of that went in there."
If they didn't run that big piece of information by him before publishing it then it's hard to believe they bothered with all these other minor details.

Because according to the SEG, SSJ3 is a solid 4x stronger than SSJ2 and 8x stronger than SSJ1. If SSJ1 Vegeta surpassed SSJ3 Goku then either his base was 8x stronger than Goku's or SSJ1 is not a solid 50x multiplier and could increase more from there. The second idea would fit with what Toriyama said about SSJ2 and SSJ3 being only powered-up variations of SSJ1 which is different than the SEG implies that they're all just power-ups of base. What he is saying might mean that SSJ1 could be trained to surpass the other two.

You just answered this.[/quote]
Not sure if this was a serious response. You're giving me half-responses and ignoring most of the comment. His base getting 8x stronger wouldn't address the fact that Toriyama mentioned SSJ1 separate from SSJ2 and SSJ3 so that's obviously different than what the SEG had. The second option could work fine with what Toriyama is saying. If it was simply his base getting 8x stronger then he would've went SSJ2 for the supposedly bigger multiplier. Goku only said "super saiyan" and that was after pointing out his SSJ2 to Beerus so it's not like Toriyama forgot what the 2nd level of SSJ was called.

[xmysticgohanx]

That makes no sense.

~ SS2 Kid Gohan has consistent sparks
~ SS2 Teen Gohan (Budokai) has consistent sparks
~ SS2 Goku has consistent sparks
~ SS2 Vegeta has consistent sparks
~ Gohan vs. Dabura has no sparks... for the lulz of it? Toriyama's gonna change the way he draws SS2 Gohan only a few chapters after Gohan's last time using the form while leaving the drawing style the same for Goku and Vegeta for what exactly?

Tell me one good reason why Gohan didn't use SSJ2 vs Buu's shell thing and why Kaioshin was surprised that Gohan had that much power when in your viewpoint he was only a SSJ.

Because he couldn't? Goku's telling Gohan to get angry like he did against Cell. What did Gohan do against Cell? Super Saiyan 2!

You forgot:
~SSJ2 Goku in BoG had no sparks
~SSJ2 Vegeta vs Beerus had no sparks

And what makes you think Gohan needs to be angry to be in SSJ2?

@skar Can't we just assume D7 has the finalized power level list? The SEG and Chozenshuu reiterate Daizenshuu's list.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Toriyama didn't personally animate Battle of Gods.

Please stop with "Oh, it happened in canon!". Toriyama didn't animate that. It's very well know Toei isn't consistent with sparks, as shown by the anime, movies, and GT.

Answer my question. Why, within a matter of a couple of chapters is Gohan (vs. Dabura) the only Super Saiyan 2 without sparks? Why change the way he was drawn not many chapters ago but leave the style consistent with Goku and Vegeta? What reasoning? Why does Toriyama himself (not Toei) do that?

Gohan needs rage to access SSJ2, as shown by him only transforming when Android #16's head was crushed. He couldn't transform and beat Cell without a trigger, which was rage. Now Goku is telling Gohan to get angry because...?

Another question: Do you believe SS Goku/Vegeta > SS2 Gohan?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

We're back to that again. On that page it shows Kami being weaker than King Piccolo. Have you ever met a Dragonball fan who has watched the King Piccolo saga and assumed that Kami was weaker than King Piccolo? The only people who would assume that are maybe those who have never seen it. As in if you showed them a picture of young King Piccolo and Old Kami they might assume the younger guy is stronger. How could V-Jump make such an obvious mistake? Nappa's power level doesn't make much sense either. Goku was "over 8000" and later Vegeta tells Nappa he could win if he calmed down and focused. Goku said he was a "tough bastard" and thought the fight would take longer. That wouldn't make sense if he was half as strong as Goku.

Kami's BP was either wrong, or he has gotten weaker because of his old age. Remember, this is Kami from Saiyan arc, who was sensing his death from natural causes to be near. He may had grown weaker than he was 9 years ago.

Nappa's BP, I disagree with that number as well.

If you already know them all can't you list them here? Unless it's because most of the inconsistencies came from the 5% that's supposed to be new information?

When did I say that I know them all? I don't remember all of them at the moment, but I've read the Daizenshuu 2, 4, 6, and 7, so I do have an idea of what's going on, and nearly all of the mistakes are typos. If you haven't read them, listen to the podcast.

So far you haven't responded to my comment about Toriyama questioning the 50x multiplier from the Daizenshuu.

He didn't really question it, he just said that it sounded too big for him, so he imagined it to be a x10 increase. But this doesn't make sense, since Kaio-ken x20 Goku would have been stronger than SS Goku, and KKx20 Goku failed to damage 50% Freeza. So, SS Goku must be over x40 stronger than before to surpass Freeza, meaning that a round x50 multiplier makes perfect sense.

Not sure if this was a serious response. You're giving me half-responses and ignoring most of the comment. His base getting 8x stronger wouldn't address the fact that Toriyama mentioned SSJ1 separate from SSJ2 and SSJ3 so that's obviously different than what the SEG had. The second option could work fine with what Toriyama is saying. If it was simply his base getting 8x stronger then he would've went SSJ2 for the supposedly bigger multiplier. Goku only said "super saiyan" and that was after pointing out his SSJ2 to Beerus so it's not like Toriyama forgot what the 2nd level of SSJ was called.

What? Of course it's serious. Vegeta's rage boost had nothing to do with the Super Saiyan forms, as far as we know. Toriyama's comment doesn't contradict SEG, he says that SS2 & SS3 are powered-up versions of Super Saiyan, which we already know since the 90s from the manga, and according to SEG, the power-ups are x2 & x4. I don't understand why you try to create a contradiction here, when the isn't one, or doesn't have to be one.


What's the point of this discussion anyway? Are you trying to make me disregard the guidebooks from being canon for me?

[Skar]

When did I say that I know them all? I don't remember all of them at the moment, but I've read the Daizenshuu 2, 4, 6, and 7, so I do have an idea of what's going on, and nearly all of the mistakes are typos. If you haven't read them, listen to the podcast.

Does the podcast go over all the guidebooks? I want to know what percentage of the overall contradictions are from the 95% that's taken directly from the manga or from the 5% that came from Shuiesha.

He didn't really question it, he just said that it sounded too big for him, so he imagined it to be a x10 increase. But this doesn't make sense, since Kaio-ken x20 Goku would have been stronger than SS Goku, and KKx20 Goku failed to damage 50% Freeza. So, SS Goku must be over x40 stronger than before to surpass Freeza, meaning that a round x50 multiplier makes perfect sense.

I don't think you were getting my point from that comment. I doubt Toriyama forgot that Oozaru was 10x base. In the interview translated here he said "Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point." When he says "up to that point" he could be referring to some level of Kaioken and not Goku's base. My point is why would he even be saying "my feelings as the creator" if the 50x multiplier was what he came up with in the first place. The fact that he's bringing it up means that Shuiesha didn't ask him before publishing it in the Daizenshuu. If this big piece of information wasn't brought to his attention that would most likely mean that neither did the smaller details in the guidebooks.

What? Of course it's serious. Vegeta's rage boost had nothing to do with the Super Saiyan forms, as far as we know. Toriyama's comment doesn't contradict SEG, he says that SS2 & SS3 are powered-up versions of Super Saiyan, which we already know since the 90s from the manga, and according to SEG, the power-ups are x2 & x4. I don't understand why you try to create a contradiction here, when the isn't one, or doesn't have to be one.

How would his rage boost have nothing to do with the SSJ forms? There's no indication that his base increased 8x. If it was a simple boost to his base only and the multipliers worked like the SEG said then Vegeta should've turned SSJ2. The SEG doesn't make any distinction between the three SSJ forms. For him to be just a SSJ instead of just going to SSJ2 during his rage boost means that there could be some difference between SSJ1 and the later two forms which is what Toriyama saying since he mentioned them separately. When he said Goku would only be training in base and SSJ that could mean he learned that SSJ1 could surpass the other two and eventually make them redundant. If they were set multipliers like the SEG said then SSJ2 and SSJ3 would always be above his SSJ1 which wouldn't make sense with what Toriyama said about him probably not using those forms anymore. It has to be more than just "it wastes energy so he won't use it" since it obviously wasted energy during the Buu saga but he still used it when necessary.

What's the point of this discussion anyway? Are you trying to make me disregard the guidebooks from being canon for me?

If you want to consider them canon that's fine. I'm pointing out why I don't consider them canon because clearly Toriyama didn't look over every detail and never mentioned rereading them to make sure he's stays consistent with them. If Toriyama considers the new information in the guidebooks as canon to his manga then he would've made a point about rereading them.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Does the podcast go over all the guidebooks? I want to know what percentage of the overall contradictions are from the 95% that's taken directly from the manga or from the 5% that came from Shuiesha.

After listening to the podcast, I can confirm to you that all of the mistakes are from pre-existing information from the manga, or from battle powers. And it only goes through the Daizenshuu.

When he says "up to that point" he could be referring to some level of Kaioken and not Goku's base.

That's illogical. If that's what Toriyama means, it would mean that SS would have been base x200, which is far bigger than the x50 multiplier, which sounded too big for Toriyama. And the guidebooks make it very clear that SS Goku isn't Kaio-ken x20 Goku x50.

If this big piece of information wasn't brought to his attention that would most likely mean that neither did the smaller details in the guidebooks.

"Big piece of information"? The big stuff are things like Goten & Trunks being tailless Saiyan Halflings, details on the Namekians, and Tenshinhan's race. The SS multiplier & the battle powers in the Daizenshuu are things that someone can easily conclude to based on stuff we already know from the manga. And we do know that he was involved with the Daizenshuu, to a degree:

My work for the Dragon Ball Daizenshuu has also settled down, so I’m not doing any work right now. (laughs)

How would his rage boost have nothing to do with the SSJ forms? There's no indication that his base increased 8x.

He surpassed SS3 Goku as a SS(2?), meaning he became x8(or 4) stronger than he normally is.

If it was a simple boost to his base only and the multipliers worked like the SEG said then Vegeta should've turned SSJ2.

And what says he didn't?

When he said Goku would only be training in base and SSJ that could mean he learned that SSJ1 could surpass the other two and eventually make them redundant.

No, he was talking about Goku after his fight with Beerus, meaning that he was talking about Goku after absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God in his base. The Super Saiyan forms (1, 2, 3, and God) no longer make Goku stronger, so SS2, SS3, and SSGod will only give him drawbacks (ki consumption for SS2 & SS3, time limit for SS3 & SSGod). He has already mastered regular Super Saiyan, so it doesn't give him any drawbacks.

If you want to consider them canon that's fine. I'm pointing out why I don't consider them canon because clearly Toriyama didn't look over every detail and never mentioned rereading them to make sure he's stays consistent with them. If Toriyama considers the new information in the guidebooks as canon to his manga then he would've made a point about rereading them.

It's not like Toriyama is looking at every detail from his manga, given to the small plot-holes his new works have here & there. I'm looking at my canon not only through Toriyama's eyes, but from Shueisha's eyes too, since the own the franchise together, and Shueisha made these guidebooks so that they will provide additional information to the manga, and Toriyama is fine with that. So, until Toriyama's work contradict the new info the guidebooks have, they are canon to me. But you are free to ignore them if you want, of course.

[Skar]

After listening to the podcast, I can confirm to you that all of the mistakes are from pre-existing information from the manga, or from battle powers. And it only goes through the Daizenshuu.

Do they list them in the podcast? I just curious why such a reliable source would getting pre-existing information wrong. They have the manga in front of them so what excuse do they have for not double checking? If don't put much effort into copying and pasting information then are you saying all their new information accurate without any doubt in your mind? I know you're going to say "as long as it doesn't contradict the manga" but imagine any sort of guidebook or encyclopedia that contradicts the source material and can't even copy information from it correctly several times. That would be like a video game guide that occasionally contradicted the game it was writing about or copied instructions wrong. I honestly can't think of any type of guide material that would still be considered reliable after such simple mistakes.

That's illogical. If that's what Toriyama means, it would mean that SS would have been base x200, which is far bigger than the x50 multiplier, which sounded too big for Toriyama. And the guidebooks make it very clear that SS Goku isn't Kaio-ken x20 Goku x50.

If he's assuming it was multiplied by some level of Kaioken then that would also apply to the 50x multiplier as in 50 times some level of Kaioken. Unless you're saying that Toriyama forgot that Oozaru was 10x base. What would be illogical is to say that he's 100% agreed with this number when he suggesting a different number later on. I agree that 50x multiplier could fit just fine but what I'm saying is that if they explained to him exactly how they came up with that number then he wouldn't have any reason to bring it up again. Since he is bringing it up that most likely means they didn't ask him before publishing it which would also mean that they likely didn't ask him about the other power levels in there.

If it was a simple boost to his base only and the multipliers worked like the SEG said then Vegeta should've turned SSJ2.

And what says he didn't?

Goku did. Goku said Vegeta went SSJ1 like we said above.

No, he was talking about Goku after his fight with Beerus, meaning that he was talking about Goku after absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God in his base. The Super Saiyan forms (1, 2, 3, and God) no longer make Goku stronger, so SS2, SS3, and SSGod will only give him drawbacks (ki consumption for SS2 & SS3, time limit for SS3 & SSGod). He has already mastered regular Super Saiyan, so it doesn't give him any drawbacks.

If the SSJ forms don't make him stronger then why would Toriyama say he's going to continue only training in base AND SSJ1? I'm not sure exactly to be honest since he turned SSJ1 again against Beerus but won't be turning SSJ in FnF.

It's not like Toriyama is looking at every detail from his manga, given to the small plot-holes his new works have here & there.

That's not really the same thing. Toriyama said he reread the manga to refresh his memory so he's making an effort to stay consistent with it. The small plotholes are because he forgot and overlooked something not because he doesn't care. You can't say the same about a guidebooks that he never once mentioned he was going to reread.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Do they list them in the podcast? I just curious why such a reliable source would getting pre-existing information wrong. They have the manga in front of them so what excuse do they have for not double checking? If don't put much effort into copying and pasting information then are you saying all their new information accurate without any doubt in your mind? I know you're going to say "as long as it doesn't contradict the manga" but imagine any sort of guidebook or encyclopedia that contradicts the source material and can't even copy information from it correctly several times. That would be like a video game guide that occasionally contradicted the game it was writing about or copied instructions wrong. I honestly can't think of any type of guide material that would still be considered reliable after such simple mistakes.

Just listen to the podcast... They go through all 7 Daizenshuu one by one, and say what mistakes each have. The mistakes are small typos about character appearances in volumes (like, X first appeared in vol. 6 instead of vol. 9, or Y appeared in vol. 30 instead of vol. 30+), and there is also the mistake of saying that Tenshinhan fought #19 for some reason. There are also Raditz's & Nappa's battle powers, which are debatable if they are wrong or not (I believe they are, personally).

If he's assuming it was multiplied by some level of Kaioken then that would also apply to the 50x multiplier as in 50 times some level of Kaioken. Unless you're saying that Toriyama forgot that Oozaru was 10x base. What would be illogical is to say that he's 100% agreed with this number when he suggesting a different number later on. I agree that 50x multiplier could fit just fine but what I'm saying is that if they explained to him exactly how they came up with that number then he wouldn't have any reason to bring it up again.

The x10 multiplier that Toriyama is suggesting makes no sense, and to be honest, I suspect that Toriyama may have mixed up the x10 multiplier of Oozaru in his mind with the SS multiplier during the interview. I'm not saying that it is him that came up with the x50 multiplier, but this is Toriyama we are talking about, in 2013 he thought that SS3 was SS2, and that #18 was the android with the purple hair while this is actually Arale from Dr. Slump... Maybe the x10 multiplier he mentioned was actually about Oozaru, and he confused the Saiyan transformations in his mind in 2009. But this is just speculation. The fact is, he supervised the section in SEG that has the SS multipliers for the 3 forms, so since the book states that these are the multipliers, then this means that Toriyama is OK with the multipliers. Toriyama doesn't say in his interview "the books say that the multiplier is x50, but I say that it is x10", he is basically saying "the books say that the multiplier is x50, but back then, I felt like the multiplier was x10".

Since he is bringing it up that most likely means they didn't ask him before publishing it which would also mean that they likely didn't ask him about the other power levels in there.

They don't have to ask Toriyama about battle powers, they can make them up by themselves. I doubt Toriyama would even bother to make numbers about story arcs he had finished for years now.

Goku did. Goku said Vegeta went SSJ1 like we said above.

No, he said "You became an amazing Super Saiyan", which isn't clear about if Goku is talking about regular Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan in general. The manga adaptation of the scene shows that Vegeta has sparks when he powers up, for what it's worth.

If the SSJ forms don't make him stronger then why would Toriyama say he's going to continue only training in base AND SSJ1? I'm not sure exactly to be honest since he turned SSJ1 again against Beerus but won't be turning SSJ in FnF.

I don't know. He transformed by accident against Beerus (he hadn't even realized that he had reverted from SSGod, let alone that he turned SS), and he says to Freeza that he doesn't need to transform anymore. Maybe turning into Super Saiyan during training helps him somehow, like it did inside the RoSaT while he was mastering it? The fact is, it doesn't make him any stronger, nor does SS2, SS3, and SSGod. Hopefully the new movie will clear things up.

That's not really the same thing. Toriyama said he reread the manga to refresh his memory so he's making an effort to stay consistent with it. The small plotholes are because he forgot and overlooked something not because he doesn't care. You can't say the same about a guidebooks that he never once mentioned he was going to reread.

My personal canon is still Toriyama's works + Shueisha's guidebooks on the manga. Toriyama may not care about the guidebooks, but he doesn't own the franchise alone, and he doesn't make all of the decisions alone, and so far, none of his new stuff have contradicted the guidebooks.