Dragon Box vs Original Broadcast - The Audio

[dougo13]

Well, after hours of fighting the hardware, I finally got a test cap. Can't track the tapes. It's a basic incompatibility between my aging decks, the aging tapes and newer hardware. Maybe if I had some overhauled higher end decks or I could get these ones fixed. No techs nor parts left in this area though. I will try one more time with a friend's business Beta decks, then give up for awhile. It may also have been an incompatibility between my friend's deck in Japan that might have needed repair or who knows what. Found another tape done by a guy in Minnesota I used to trade with made on an SLHF750 and the tapes play flawlessly on the SLHFR70. This is really getting me down...

I'll put up the test cap. It's in M2TS format, 4 minutes long and about 405 MB. Recorded on my Hauppage at best settings (14 Mbps). You will be able to hear the change over from linear audio to HiFi audio and see the tracking problems. I'll post it to my Onedrive account since I have lots of space there...

From the wiki:

"Sony was confident that VHS could not achieve the same audio performance feat as Beta Hi-Fi. However, to the chagrin of Sony, JVC did develop a VHS hi-fi system on the principle of depth multiplexing approximately a year after the first Beta Hi-Fi VCR, the SL-5200, was introduced by Sony. Despite initial praise as providing "CD sound quality", both Beta Hi-Fi and VHS HiFi suffered from "carrier buzz", where high frequency information bled into the audio carriers, creating momentary "buzzing" and other audio flaws. Both systems also used companding noise-reduction systems, which could create "pumping" artifacts under some conditions. Both formats also suffered from interchange problems, where tapes made on one machine did not always play back well on other machines. When this happened and if the artifacts became too distracting, users were forced to revert to the old linear soundtrack."

This is exactly the problem with these tapes. Even with the second tracking control on the SLHFR70 I have, I can only minimize the flaws in audio playback. Again, it *MIGHT* be possible to clean this up but I lack the time and patience. Shame too, as these were the earliest episodes of the series broadcast. I'll include a minute or two of some other caps to show what happened after adjusting the second tracking control...

[dougo13]

Dang! Won't work. Onedrive won't let you play an M2TS file! The Dr. Slump caps stream perfectly either AVI or MP4 but in order to show the audio change from conventional to Hifi I uploaded the full HDPVR2 DB caps. Well, I'm open to suggestions now...

Okay. Found out it's a known problem with Onedrive that it can't do MKV or M2TS or TS streams. Dopey. Have to find another file host that does...

[Ajay]

Throw it up on MEGA and we can just download and watch them. Otherwise, it's probably easier to just compress them and bash them up on YouTube.

[dougo13]

Throw it up on MEGA and we can just download and watch them. Otherwise, it's probably easier to just compress them and bash them up on YouTube.

Putting them on Youtube won't keep the original audio track as it will be converted, most likely to MP3. Pointless. Still looking...

[fdsfgs71]

Throw it up on MEGA and we can just download and watch them. Otherwise, it's probably easier to just compress them and bash them up on YouTube.

Putting them on Youtube won't keep the original audio track as it will be converted, most likely to MP3. Pointless. Still looking...

I'll second throwing it up on MEGA, if I have the .m2ts file I should be able to extract the audio track fairly easily.

[Ajay]

Throw it up on MEGA and we can just download and watch them. Otherwise, it's probably easier to just compress them and bash them up on YouTube.

Putting them on Youtube won't keep the original audio track as it will be converted, most likely to MP3. Pointless. Still looking...

No, I fully understand what YouTube does to audio. You'll get a 192Kbps AAC file. Obviously not a touch on uncompressed audio but more than enough to demonstrate your point, as Kei has done many times with his audio. So no, not entirely 'pointless'. You'll find that most people on here don't have the equipment to discern any difference between bitrates, and just want to give it a quick listen. It was a suggestion to get more people talking about your posts.

For those looking to download it and play around with it, that's what MEGA would be for, and precisely why I suggested it.

[dougo13]

Looks like I should have put it into Google Drive instead as there is support for MTS and M2TS and playback in Windows 7 Media player (with the correct codecs installed), Windows 8, 8.1 and 10. I'll try that and if it doesn't work I'll put it into a file share site...

[dougo13]

Try these links:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-jGA3 ... sp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-jGA3 ... sp=sharing

[Ajay]

The privacy settings aren't public right now. It's making me request permission to view the file.

[dougo13]

Should be okay now. I set it to view only without Google requiring a sign in and was able to view the files on my Ipad...

[Ajay]

Yup! All working now. Thanks for your efforts.

[Bardo117]

Would they even listen to us over this?

[Attitudefan]

Shame if you cannot get Dragonball broadcast audio. You can't have a release without the whole series.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

Would they even listen to us over this?

Talking to them is the only way we can check it.

[sangofe]

Would they even listen to us over this?

If you're referring to FUNimation and the original broadcast audio, you'll see in this very same thread, that they have listened to the fans already. Or at least Chris Sabat has.

[Bardo117]

This really sounds ridiculous though, I don't see them ever making a play on this . Especially considering having an entirely new release, JUST for slightly better sounding audio. And then to top it off, it's not even English audio!

And by releasing this audio, they would have to make another 'definitive edition' for the series, involving expensive packaging, or pretty much just a straight re-release of the DBoxes, which I'm sure they've already lost the license to.


I wonder how fans would react if Funi made their own definitive version, UnCut, unaltered, all varieties of BGM, English, Japanese, Spanish(long shot), with subtitles, and their own unique style of packaging. On Blu-Ray, this would all fit perfectly, no condensing of files, everything should fit just fine. But we'll see.

[sangofe]

This really sounds ridiculous though, I don't see them ever making a play on this . Especially considering having an entirely new release, JUST for slightly better sounding audio. And then to top it off, it's not even English audio!

And by releasing this audio, they would have to make another 'definitive edition' for the series, involving expensive packaging, or pretty much just a straight re-release of the DBoxes, which I'm sure they've already lost the license to.


I wonder how fans would react if Funi made their own definitive version, UnCut, unaltered, all varieties of BGM, English, Japanese, Spanish(long shot), with subtitles, and their own unique style of packaging. On Blu-Ray, this would all fit perfectly, no condensing of files, everything should fit just fine. But we'll see.

Ridiculous? Why? I'm one of those who'd be first in line to buy a new release like this. And it's not "just" to get new audio. The video would be in 4:3 HD as well. Why are you bringing up the Dragon Boxes? They've got nothing to do with this project.

[Bardo117]

I'm bringing them up because if they release this audio, people would want it coupled with the footage in 4:3, and if it's anything less than DBox quality, yall will start throwing your little tantrums lol

[clutchins]

I'm gonna predict that within the next five years, Toei will finally get off their asses and produce their own 4:3 HD Remaster of DB, DBZ, GT, and all various specials and movies thereof. DBZ will likely be the first set (or sets) since it was the first series put out in the Dragon Boxes.

My reasoning behind this is based on a few things.
1) Kai is wrapping up this year, which means that they would not have to risk a marketing clash of promoting both series on Blu-ray.
2) Toei is open to remastering their old properties, as noted with their recent announcement to do an in-house remaster of Sailor Moon (as a response to Viz's god-awful handling of their own remaster), although this might be a one-time occurrence but only time will tell.
3) Although 2016 is the 30th anniversary of Dragon Ball airing on Japanese TV I doubt that they've had the time or resources to remaster it in time for next year. 2019 sounds like a logical to expect any word on this front since it's the 30th anniversary of DBZ being broadcast on TV and would likely be the first item of the franchise to be released on Blu-ray.

Now while these predictions are grounded in some form of logical reasoning, my expectations are just as high and hopeful as those of anybody else in this thread.
1) 4:3 1080p scan should be a given since this is somebody other than Funimation handling the prints (but I'll give them some credit for the Level Sets).
2) As unlikely as it sounds, I sure hope that kei will be able to donate his remastered broadcast recordings to Toei so that we don't have to listen to a Linear PCM master of the god-forsaken optical track.
3) This one is contingent on the previous one happening, but I'd like to see this 5.1 remix that keeps getting thrown around here. I can't remember what the limits to doing it were but it was something like having CD-quality BGM in the L + R channels and broadcast-quality voices in the center channel. I'm a bit of an audiophile so I enjoy the thought of having this available.
4) Some level of color-correction. I want Toei to acknowledge that their film masters are getting older by the year and digitally correct the colors based on kei's recordings (again, contingent on 2 happening). If they can't get his stuff, then at least remove the color cast on every episode.

Toei needs to take better care of their pride and joy and they will have an opportunity to let that happen soon enough. I also understand the amount of wishful thinking that went into this post, but really it shouldn't be considered wishful thinking to expect most of these things. If the BBC will accept lost prints and recordings of old Doctor Who serials, there is no reason that Toei can't do the same with these recordings. I don't want to have to rely on fans and collectors to make the perfect version of Dragon Ball - I want the company who owns the property to do it in the first place so the fans don't have to. Again, this is nothing anybody here hasn't heard before but it's also worth repeating especially in this thread.

[MarcFBR]

1) Kai is wrapping up this year, which means that they would not have to risk a marketing clash of promoting both series on Blu-ray.

They also wrapped it up and were done with it a few years ago and that didn't lead to DBZ.

2) Toei is open to remastering their old properties, as noted with their recent announcement to do an in-house remaster of Sailor Moon (as a response to Viz's god-awful handling of their own remaster), although this might be a one-time occurrence but only time will tell.

Actually Toei said 'a' remaster, not a new one. We know nothing of it. In fact, in recent years Toei has gone out of their way to NOT remaster stuff they have film stock on hand for.

3) Although 2016 is the 30th anniversary of Dragon Ball airing on Japanese TV I doubt that they've had the time or resources to remaster it in time for next year. 2019 sounds like a logical to expect any word on this front since it's the 30th anniversary of DBZ being broadcast on TV and would likely be the first item of the franchise to be released on Blu-ray.

You've picked a year out of a hat, there is nothing logical there.

3) This one is contingent on the previous one happening, but I'd like to see this 5.1 remix that keeps getting thrown around here. I can't remember what the limits to doing it were but it was something like having CD-quality BGM in the L + R channels and broadcast-quality voices in the center channel. I'm a bit of an audiophile so I enjoy the thought of having this available.

Just... no. Not going to happen. The fact delusional people keep saying it could happen doesn't equate to any sort of reality.

4) Some level of color-correction. I want Toei to acknowledge that their film masters are getting older by the year and digitally correct the colors based on kei's recordings (again, contingent on 2 happening). If they can't get his stuff, then at least remove the color cast on every episode.

It would require a level of effort Toei has generally shown to not give to things. And frankly, outside of a small group... no one actually cares about kei's recordings.

Toei needs to take better care of their pride and joy and they will have an opportunity to let that happen soon enough.

'Have an opportunity' 'soon' So mind explaining what is stopping them from doing it now?

I also understand the amount of wishful thinking that went into this post, but really it shouldn't be considered wishful thinking to expect most of these things.

It's nearly all wishful thinking (with more than a sprinkling of nonsense.)

If the BBC will accept lost prints and recordings of old Doctor Who serials, there is no reason that Toei can't do the same with these recordings.

The BBC is a public broadcaster funded by public funds that has an obligation to the UK public. Toei is a corporation in Japan. The fact you deem them equivalent does not make it so.

I don't want to have to rely on fans and collectors to make the perfect version of Dragon Ball - I want the company who owns the property to do it in the first place so the fans don't have to. Again, this is nothing anybody here hasn't heard before but it's also worth repeating especially in this thread.

Getting a perfect version of a show is by and large a fiction created by fans. TNG on Blu-ray is at times far from perfect. Except a few crazy people, no one is complaining. YYH on Blu-ray has a few weird audio editing choices, but again, no complaints.

Even complains in Japan regarding DBZ is relatively minimal. And complaints in the USA tend to reside in a rather small grouping overall.

I'm sure Toei will do something at some point, but the list of what fans 'want' seems to quite randomly grow and any smart company would, in general, ignore it.