Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[fadeddreams5]

Fuck Cell.

That is all.

This post adds nothing to the discussion. If you value your time here, I suggest reading Rule #3, which you agreed to twice before signing up.




I'm not really a mod...*Runs away*

[Lord Beerus]

I don't know why people can't see Goku losing to Freeza, he lost all the time in the original DB. In that regard Battle of Gods was a throwback, Toriyama went back to the original concept of the tournament arcs of making Goku lose so he can know that there's always someone stronger out there.

And about Freeza, even in his new form, Goku was able to do some decent damage to him before going down. So i'm not sure where this "Freeza went god mode in four months" is coming from.

I kinda want Goku to lose as well. Just to add to drama and tension of the movie, make people release that Freeza truly is a threat again and no longer the punching bag that Toei turned him into.

[bleed0range]

I don't know why people can't see Goku losing to Freeza, he lost all the time in the original DB. In that regard Battle of Gods was a throwback, Toriyama went back to the original concept of the tournament arcs of making Goku lose so he can know that there's always someone stronger out there.

And about Freeza, even in his new form, Goku was able to do some decent damage to him before going down. So i'm not sure where this "Freeza went god mode in four months" is coming from.

Honestly he does lose a lot which is why it actually seems less likely he will lose again. Goku lost in the last movie. Plus Goku beig slightly beaten up on the ground in a shot in the trailer doesn't mean he lost. Goku was beat up and on the ground before his victory in just about uhhhhh... Everything ever?

That scene could just be Vegeta stepping in for a moment.

It'll play out like this. Goku fights and is over confident so he gets beat to a pulp. Vegeta fights and is too serious and gets beat up. They both fight and learn from each other and beat Freeza. Freeza begs not to die and Goku doesn't want to let him get away. Vegeta does and Beerus tells him that that's a mistake and kills Freeza. Whis tells them they learned from their training!

That's what I think anyway. I really think people are gonna be massively disapointed now if Vegeta doesn't win because everyone is starting to just accept that as fact when it's not.

[dbzfan7]

For one it goes against Goku's one speech of "Even a low class can surpass an elite if he trains hard enough"..which is wrong if the elite trains hard too apparently, or since the elite are commonly far more gifted than a low class. Next it's very easy to tell if someone has any martial arts skills or not. Goku would have easily picked up from Freeza's stance, and fighting style he's never actually trained. Martial artists can tell who's a disciplined fighter or not. Freeza even suggests he's at least had a rough time with his father before.

Next he's reaching a level Goku himself deemed impossible for him to reach on his own. Something he believed he could never ever reach in his life time or probably any life time. Freeza does this in four months. Prodigy or not how is someone who has no idea how to train, supposed to figure out how to get that strong in such a short time. If he's never trained, how would he know how or even what to do to get that strong. He doesn't exactly have anyone near him who could teach him or give him ideas.

Then we have how this makes Freeza a moron as a character, but people explained that already a bunch. On top of that it makes all villains look stupid and the only reason our heroes stand a chance is cause no villain takes time to train. Cell probably could have trained those 10 days and SSJ2 Gohan would be nothing to him. Boo is so gifted he can learn a technique once just by seeing it, so imagine if he trained too. This opens the flood gates for ridiculous implications everywhere.

I'm fine with the whole Freeza training thing...but they seriously couldn't have given him more time? I mean what kind of training is going to get him to that level? Sparring is the best kind of training, but he has no one on his level to train with. Gravity training is another form, but then he'd need to find several planets with higher and higher gravity as sooner or later as he gets stronger, previous levels of gravity will not help him grow. Same logic applies to weight training. Maybe if they come up with some super special I've never heard of training regiment, maybe I'll believe it. If it's just ordinary training, then that's silly.

Still no word on Vegeta either. If he hasn't become an SSJ God at some point, that would mean he trained to a level Goku himself said was impossible for him to reach ever. That's another thing I hope the movie covers as it's a pretty easy mistake to avoid.

I feel like the mere existence of Saiyans invalidates Goku's speech. Humans could never realistically catch up, because their species isn't as "elite" as the Saiyans. The same logic is being used here, only Freeza's freak mutant species is one-upping the Saiyans. I don't see how this is a problem.

Him being a mutant is vague enough that it opens up so many doors it's absurd.

I don't really get how this whole thing makes Freeza anymore of a moron than he already was. Different contextual situations lead to different actions and behavior. I have repeatedly pointed this out in these conversations, and it always seems to get ignored. In Cell's case, he was already top dog as far as he was concerned, he was still testing his abilities. If he was spared at the end of the Cell Games, it would be surprising for him not have trained. In Buu's case, this makes the epilogue with Uub actually make more sense. If SSj3 Goku was on par with Buu before, and Buu's regeneration played a huge role in why he couldn't just end him really quick, then it would have made no sense before for Goku to imply that this mystery guy could defeat him, when he's just got Kid Buu's power at most and no regeneration. And since the heroes are already astronomically lucky is countless other regards, this changes little.

I do agree that it would have been better if it was more than 4 months, and would be even better if they mentioned him finding a super secret special method. But again, he's a space mutant, and the universe is an impossibly huge and crazy place. In terms of things you need to suspend your disbelief on, I feel this is right at home with several of the series' other crazy things, and not any worse than them. I'd likewise find it hard to reconcile if Vegeta didn't get the SSj God power up, though I guess one could make the argument that training with Whis and Godku as sparring partners allows for crazy gains? Maybe?

I wonder how someone who has no concept of training, is supposed to know how to get that strong. Freeza somehow knows he can get stronger than Boo at least in 4 month's. How would he know? He's never trained and has no concept of training regiments, diminished returns, etc. I also find the new form kinda weird as before they were only suppressors rather than enhancers. I'm curious as to how he discovers all this. Though my money is on them not showing jack shit how Freeza accomplished this.

I feel like he's making an inductive, speculative statement, rather than an inductive, calculated observation of fact. He sounds like he's being boastful.

"Saiyans tend to be incredibly weak shit. One put me in my place on Namek, but surely that was just luck, right? Then I went to Earth and got blown to smithereens by another filthy monkey. Hmm. Now I'm back, and I get informed that that fucking monkey has even reached into the upper echelons of the spooky scary gods daddy warned me about? Well God damn it, there just has to be something to what he's doing. That was what, 17 years ago when he cleaned my clock, and now he's god stomping material....and he started off as a weak shit monkey. But I'm not some weak shit monkey, maybe this "training" shit actually does something? Hell, I bet if I actually exerted myself and tried to get stronger, it'd only take a gifted, special snowflake mutant, freaky alien genotype such as myself, like FOUR MONTHS tops to get on that level. That'll show him!"

That's honestly the interpretation of his thought process that makes the most sense, and is the most consistent with his character and previous actions, and certain other facts we know about what he knows. At the very least, that's what I naturally inferred from it, with everything else in mind. He hadn't even considered training as a thing that would be of any worth until he saw that a low level monkey can trounce all over gods. Sure, it took him getting defeated twice and then a bombshell like that to get it, but what do you expect? He's a smug, proud, cocky, arrogant shit. It just makes so much sense to me that it took all of this for him to realize that he needs to actually attempt to better himself, and I think it works great as actual character development for him. He's acknowledging that he can actually better himself, that he isn't just the coolest mortal shit in existence. And that's still consistent with his prior knowledge of Buu and Beerus, because those seemed to be like big bad boogeymen that no sensible mortal should cross, even the strongest of the strongest mortals that Freeza sees himself as.

This is what I feel like Toriyama is trying to get at. Is it executed perfectly or being conveyed as clearly as it needs to be? I think it goes without saying that, no, this isn't being spelled out as perfectly and explicitly as it needs to be. It takes a little bit of thinking and such to piece together why it is entirely consistent and makes complete sense, and I 100% agree that it would be altogether better if that wasn't needed.

Now as for whether or not he DOES actually get that strong, we'll have to wait and see. But it appears that he gets pretty bruised up fighting Goku (prior to his transformation), so it doesn't look like he fully met his goal. If this is the case, then he was partly right than he could make crazy gains, but he was also too arrogant to think that he could just stomp Goku. I mean I doubt hat he had any idea about "Golden Form" when he was being all boastful after being revived.

-Yeah. Elite are better than you, so don't waste your time.
-Every victory is due to every villain being lazy and stupid
-Freeza somehow knows all this, yet can't sense ki to truly understand the wide gap
-Freeza refers to himself as strongest, and yet knew all along he wasn't....same with Vegeta.

-Freeza has no clue about training at all, but can manage this stunt.
-Freeza who has never trained nor has a clue how to, reaches a level a training monster said was impossible on his own to ever reach.
-We might not even get an actual explanation, yet were supposed to buy all this.
-As someone else already pointed out, this story has a similar looking structure to basic fanfictions.

[TheGmGoken]

If Cell had Goku(and Piccolo) cells and Goku knows perfect training...then.. Cell should be the grandmaster right..? Like a fighting master? Especially if he got Picclo and Freeza potential.

[Saiga]

The Saiyan race don't hurt that example as much as Freeza does. The humans did actually surpass the majority of Saiyans, and Goku/Vegeta had more training opportunities than them.

Freeza is doing minimal training, unlike Goku and Vegeta, and benefitting massively from it. To preserve that moral he should at least have to put in an assload of training himself.

[bleed0range]

If Cell had Goku(and Piccolo) cells and Goku knows perfect training...then.. Cell should be the grandmaster right..? Like a fighting master? Especially if he got Picclo and Freeza potential.

Cell should have the most potential of any villain in terms of power. But with all those positive attributes he also possess all their negative ones. Kind of balancing it out. In other words He'd probably be his own worst enemy. Ultimately that is why he lost in the first place. Just like Vegeta his interest was peaked at the possibility of fighting someone as strong as SSJ2 Gohan do he let it happen and it bit him in the ass. Likewise, he also just assumed he was the best and "perfect" much like Freeza did.

[Suupaa Gohan 2]

Marked for deletion.

[Kamiccolo9]

It's absolutely got the cheap fanfiction vibe going. DragonBalls used to bring back dusty old villain that hasn't been relevant in years! Magical bullshit explanation (or lack thereof) makes him more powerful than makes sense! God tier protagonists get the shit beat out of them for no real reason!

It's just such shameful shit. Battle of Gods wasn't my favorite movie ever, but at least it tried to do something new.

The series is full of magical bullshit explanations. I don't see how this is anything new.

[dbzfan7]

The Saiyan race don't hurt that example as much as Freeza does. The humans did actually surpass the majority of Saiyans, and Goku/Vegeta had more training opportunities than them.

Freeza is doing minimal training, unlike Goku and Vegeta, and benefitting massively from it. To preserve that moral he should at least have to put in an assload of training himself.

The prominent humans are stronger than all the past Saiyans now that's for sure. They only got truly outclassed once Zenkai's, and transformations came into the picture. If they had Kaio-Ken they wouldn't be that far behind saiyans.

Or Freeza should meet a new character, someone who can help bring his power up. Someone maybe from another universe to that will show that plot point may not just be a factoid. I'd be down with that. I'm not down with some imbecile who shouldn't have the first idea how to train, and yet on his own got this strong. Hell Gohan has gigantic gains in training, yet in the future he ain't tough shit. He's weak. He was only trained by Piccolo and doesn't have any idea how to get real strong on his own.

[bleed0range]

The Saiyan race don't hurt that example as much as Freeza does. The humans did actually surpass the majority of Saiyans, and Goku/Vegeta had more training opportunities than them.

Freeza is doing minimal training, unlike Goku and Vegeta, and benefitting massively from it. To preserve that moral he should at least have to put in an assload of training himself.

The moral is merely that someone should try their hardest and they may be able to be the best. It doesn't mean it won't be easier for others and it doesn't guarantee success. It's not even about whether you're the best or whether you win or lose, it's about being your best. Rising above your limits.

Goku at his best, wasn't enough to defeat Cell but it didn't phase him. He was happy to give it his best and he was fully prepared for death if it came to that. Gohan was his backup, but even if Gohan wasn't an option he would have been happy that he at least did his best and all that he could do with the time given.

To counter that example, Freeza was like a million times stronger then him and he somehow was able to gain that much strength in about a month or two. Most of it just training in a spaceship. Seems almost unfair to just about everyone around him that he could do that, but it's accepted because he is the hero. I feel like people have a hard time accepting it with Freeza because he is the bad guy.

Everyone compares his strength gain to the main characters over the course of several years. But at the same time, Goku passed up several key fighters with huge power levels in just as quick a fashion (like the Ginyu Force, Dodoria, Zarbon, Vegeta, etc.). All those guys probably trained for years to be as strong as they were and they were surpassed in an instant.

Everyone is different and will receive gains differently. In training, say you lose some weight real fast at first... at some point it may become more difficult to lose any further weight. Kind of like Goku hitting his stride during the Freeza arc but his quick gains diminishing over time... but his overall potential still being enormous.

Anyway, it doesn't change the moral really.

[EA575]

Freeza training for 4 months is nowhere near as bullshit as Gohan doing literally nothing for, what, 24 hours and suddenly becoming more powerful than Super Buu.
That's all I have to say.

[bleed0range]

Freeza training for 4 months is nowhere near as bullshit as Gohan doing literally nothing for, what, 24 hours and suddenly becoming more powerful than Super Buu.
That's all I have to say.

This. Or hey, also Vegeta and Goku putting on earrings and becoming the most powerful character like ever. Some people get too caught up int he believability of a show where literally anything can happen or anything be possible. I suppose if Sorbet's ring granted Freeza magic powers to be that strong or Beerus gave him the powers they'd find it believable. But I personally like the angle that Freeza actually put in some effort for the first time in his life to be the strongest.

[Herms]

There's no news post about it, but we've put up translations for two interviews that were in the April issue of Flying Postman Press: one with Ryusei Nakao, and one with producer Norihiro Hayashida. Nakao quite strongly hints at some sort of post-credit scene, while Hayashida notes that this is his first time producing a movie, Toriyama's first time writing a movie script, and Yamamuro's first time directing (he's quite upbeat about those three facts).

Oh, and Golden Freeza's power level? 100 quintillion, according to Nakao (naturally this is all part of a stupid pun).

[Bullza]

How much bitching did Battle of Gods get after the detailed plot outline was given? This one seems to have had a lot more complaints, mostly revolving around Frieza.

[radrappy]

It's absolutely got the cheap fanfiction vibe going. Dragonballs used to bring back dusty old villain that hasn't been relevant in years! Magical bullshit explanation (or lack thereof) makes him more powerful than makes sense! God tier protagonists get the shit beat out of them for no real reason!

It's just such shameful shit. Battle of Gods wasn't my favorite movie ever, but at least it tried to do something new.

how about

>anytime a sensu bean is used

>man-made androids that are stronger than a super saiyan

> almost any instance of zenkai, ever

>the hyperbolic time chamber

> mystic gohan

Freeza's never trained a day in his life; now he has to swallow his pride and take a whack at it. What's this, it ends up paying off in dividends? It's called Toriyama DOING WHAT HE HAS ALWAYS DONE. Please take off your nostalgia goggles for a moment before claiming this is as bad as fan-fiction. Also, what's with the hate towards Freeza? He's arguably the most important villain in the franchise; him coming back is an absolute treat. Who did you want, Janemba #215?

[EA575]

There's no news post about it, but we've put up translations for two interviews that were in the April issue of Flying Postman Press: one with Ryusei Nakao, and one with producer Norihiro Hayashida. Nakao quite strongly hints at some sort of post-credit scene, while Hayashida notes that this is his first time producing a movie, Toriyama's first time writing a movie script, and Yamamuro's first time directing (he's quite upbeat about those three facts).

Oh, and Golden Freeza's power level? 100 quintillion, according to Nakao (naturally this is all part of a stupid pun).

Any guesses as to why Horikawa hasn't been no the Bulma blog yet?

[Zephyr]

-Yeah. Elite are better than you, so don't waste your time.
-Every victory is due to every villain being lazy and stupid
-Freeza somehow knows all this, yet can't sense ki to truly understand the wide gap
-Freeza refers to himself as strongest, and yet knew all along he wasn't....same with Vegeta.

-Freeza has no clue about training at all, but can manage this stunt.
-Freeza who has never trained nor has a clue how to, reaches a level a training monster said was impossible on his own to ever reach.
-We might not even get an actual explanation, yet were supposed to buy all this.
-As someone else already pointed out, this story has a similar looking structure to basic fanfictions.

- It won't necessarily be a waste of time, but you're definitely going to have to put in more work.
- I won't disagree there.
- I don't think Freeza needs to be able to sense ki in order to have reason to believe that certain specific beings are simply on another plane of existence (in terms of power).
- Yes, just like Vegeta. He's aware that there's another plane of existence (in terms of power), but that doesn't stop him from bragging about himself within his own plane of existence.

- Again, we don't know what his training entails, but regardless the universe is a big place and him being able to find this out isn't something that needs to be spelled out.
- The training monster wasn't a freaky alien genotype mutant monster.
- While an explanation would be great and appreciated, not getting one is fine because we have enough on our plate already to justify it. It's definitely one of the flimsier justifications for things, but there are more flimsy justifications for things in the manga. Meaning this is consistent and right at home with things.
- I still don't understand the fanfiction thing. You can call "reviving an old villain" fanfiction-y all you want, but all it does is sidestep putting any thought into why you think it's bad to be bringing a villain back in the first place. As someone already pointed out, magical bullshit powerups with minimal justification are commonplace in the source material, so that's hardly fanfiction-y. People getting the shit beat out of them for no reason isn't even something one can claim, agree with, or disagree with yet, since we haven't seen the movie yet. Now if it does turn out true that these minions stomp the likes of Gohan and Piccolo with no explanation, then I'd agree that there's a problem there.

Spoiler:

And to be honest, the entire Cell arc feels to me a more fanfiction-y than any of this new stuff:
- Sword wielding Super Saiyan from the future!
- He's the kid of...Bulma and Vegeta!
- Everyone dies, tragic history!
- No explanation given for why the Namekian Dragon Balls weren't used!
- Old villain comes back and makes robots stronger than Super Saiyans and Freeza!
- Monster made from everyone's DNA and has all of their attacks!
- And he can super regenerate from anything as long as the nucleus in his head is in tact!
- Oh and it also isn't even in his head!
- And he can abuse the near death power ups that are now supposed to be useless because of reasons!
- And they somehow let him come back to his Perfect form!

And I want to take a moment to clarify, I'm not meaning to imply that since this is right at home with how the manga did things that these details are somehow exempt from criticism. They are open to criticism in the manga, and they are here. But they're very much so reconcilable in the manga, and they are here. So I think the expectations for and reactions to such things are blown a little out of proportion, and people seem to be forgetting the series we're discussing. If there's a take home point/tl;dr to this post, that would be it.

The Saiyan race don't hurt that example as much as Freeza does. The humans did actually surpass the majority of Saiyans, and Goku/Vegeta had more training opportunities than them.

If those Saiyans had the advantage of mystically trained martial arts masters and all of the other perks that the humans had, I doubt they'd have a lead over them.

[MajinMan]

Freeza training for 4 months is nowhere near as bullshit as Gohan doing literally nothing for, what, 24 hours and suddenly becoming more powerful than Super Buu.
That's all I have to say.

Exactly. The whole series has a bunch of absurd bullshit power ups that don't make any sense but we accept them anyway. Why is this an exception? Well, I think it's because its a villian doing it now instead of the hero and it's creating an uproar.

Let's take a look at Goku for a second and most of his powerups.

-Trains with Roshi. Pretty legit boost considering it took like 8 months.
-Runs around and tries to catch Karin and gets really powerful for no real reason other than moving around and climbing. Took place in 3 days.
-Trains by himself for 3 years. Pretty legit.
-Drinks some poison water and becomes powerful enough to beat a young Piccolo Daimao.
-Kami/Popo training.
-Trains by himself.
-Dies, keeps his body, finds some God that's above the Earths god and trains with him to become like 20 times stronger.
-Trains in a spaceship in heavy gravity and becomes about 11 times stronger. Didn't take very long.
-Gets beat up and goes from a 90,000 to a 3,000,000. Yah, ok. Happened in a day.
-Trains with Gohan in the Chamber to "master" the super saiyan form which gives a big boost even though it logically shouldn't because it states that it's just a calm version of the form with no extra boost.
-Dies, trains for 7 years and advances two super saiyan levels by himself. Your call on this one.
-Become's a God by holding hands and becomes like 1000 times stronger or something.

So would you rather want Freeza to hold hands with his minions and become a God or train for 4 months? Or get beat up and get 33 times stronger in a day? If you don't like the overall idea of Freeza then fine, but if you only hate his powerup, I suggest you reflect on the rest of the series and how characters powered up and see that it's really not that different.

[Chuquita]

There's no news post about it, but we've put up translations for two interviews that were in the April issue of Flying Postman Press: one with Ryusei Nakao, and one with producer Norihiro Hayashida. Nakao quite strongly hints at some sort of post-credit scene, while Hayashida notes that this is his first time producing a movie, Toriyama's first time writing a movie script, and Yamamuro's first time directing (he's quite upbeat about those three facts).

Oh, and Golden Freeza's power level? 100 quintillion, according to Nakao (naturally this is all part of a stupid pun).

Post credits...cliffhanger? :3
I don't know what else it could be if Freeza 'loses the battle, but wins the war'.