bleed0range wrote:EA575 wrote:Freeza training for 4 months is nowhere near as bullshit as Gohan doing literally nothing for, what, 24 hours and suddenly becoming more powerful than Super Buu.
That's all I have to say.
This. Or hey, also Vegeta and Goku putting on earrings and becoming the most powerful character like ever. Some people get too caught up int he believability of a show where literally anything can happen or anything be possible. I suppose if Sorbet's ring granted Freeza magic powers to be that strong or Beerus gave him the powers they'd find it believable. But I personally like the angle that Freeza actually put in some effort for the first time in his life to be the strongest.
One has to do with bringing out potential that's been long since built up since the beginning of Gohan's character. The other is just now bringing up a whole new factoid that was never even hinted at originally to try and rationalize a fanservice return. One is an artifact from gods themselves, not even being that powerful for everyone IE Kibitoshin, and the other is someone who's never trained before somehow learning a training regiment superior to everything Goku's done.
Zephyr wrote:dbzfan7 wrote:-Yeah. Elite are better than you, so don't waste your time.
-Every victory is due to every villain being lazy and stupid
-Freeza somehow knows all this, yet can't sense ki to truly understand the wide gap
-Freeza refers to himself as strongest, and yet knew all along he wasn't....same with Vegeta.
-Freeza has no clue about training at all, but can manage this stunt.
-Freeza who has never trained nor has a clue how to, reaches a level a training monster said was impossible on his own to ever reach.
-We might not even get an actual explanation, yet were supposed to buy all this.
-As someone else already pointed out, this story has a similar looking structure to basic fanfictions.
- It won't necessarily be a waste of time, but you're definitely going to have to put in more work.
- I won't disagree there.
- I don't think Freeza needs to be able to sense ki in order to have reason to believe that certain specific beings are simply on another plane of existence (in terms of power).
- Yes, just like Vegeta. He's aware that there's another plane of existence (in terms of power), but that doesn't stop him from bragging about himself within his own plane of existence.
- Again, we don't know what his training entails, but regardless the universe is a big place and him being able to find this out isn't something that needs to be spelled out.
- The training monster wasn't a freaky alien genotype mutant monster.
- While an explanation would be great and appreciated, not getting one is fine because we have enough on our plate already to justify it. It's definitely one of the flimsier justifications for things, but there are more flimsy justifications for things in the manga. Meaning this is consistent and right at home with things.
- I still don't understand the fanfiction thing. You can call "reviving an old villain" fanfiction-y all you want, but all it does is sidestep putting any thought into why you think it's bad to be bringing a villain back in the first place. As someone already pointed out, magical bullshit powerups with minimal justification are commonplace in the source material, so that's hardly fanfiction-y. People getting the shit beat out of them for no reason isn't even something one can claim, agree with, or disagree with yet, since we haven't seen the movie yet. Now if it does turn out true that these minions stomp the likes of Gohan and Piccolo with no explanation, then I'd agree that there's a problem there.
And I want to take a moment to clarify, I'm not meaning to imply that since this is right at home with how the manga did things that these details are somehow exempt from criticism. They are open to criticism in the manga, and they are here. But they're very much so reconcilable in the manga, and they are here.
So I think the expectations for and reactions to such things are blown a little out of proportion, and people seem to be forgetting the series we're discussing. If there's a take home point/tl;dr to this post, that would be it.
Saiga wrote:The Saiyan race don't hurt that example as much as Freeza does. The humans did actually surpass the majority of Saiyans, and Goku/Vegeta had more training opportunities than them.
If those Saiyans had the advantage of mystically trained martial arts masters and all of the other perks that the humans had, I doubt they'd have a lead over them.
-No it's a waste. You'll never compare so no point in trying to have dreams or goals of comparing.
-Which undermines Dragon Ball as it makes everything feel stupid and that our heroes are only lucky their opponents are dipshits.
-He does if he's supposed to know how strong they even are. He could think getting only 10x stronger is all he needs. He has no idea.
-It makes them both wrong and moronic. It's like if I bragged I'm the strongest in the universe among my house, just cause no one there is as strong as me. It makes me and them look like fools.
-Yes it does. Just suddenly being stronger cause fuck reasons is stupid. It's like introducing a new character that suddenly becomes Goku's best friend. Then they talk about how they're best friends now, without explaining how this even happened.
-The genotype only now gets such a label of prodigy when this was never hinted at in the manga. The genotype has no clue as to training at all since he never did it, and yet becomes a master in 4 months.
-No it's not. Every power up has some form of explanation. The only lacking one is Zenkai's, and those went away after SSJ.
-Because there is no real purpose for Freeza. What does the universe gain from Freeza returning? Are characters really going to gain much? Vegeta and Goku don't seem troubled and practically don't think much of Freeza. We'll have to wait to know for sure, but Beerus and Whis actually brought expanding to the universe. Or in this case multi-verse.
-Considering everyone fights unarmed, it's interesting to see. Logically most people would fight armed. I get where the fanfiction accusation comes from though
-No real retort to this. Bulgeta came from outta nowhere.
-In a series where death means nothing, this is actually a good twist.
-Not sure what you mean here.
-A villian no one knew about at all, and wasn't mentioned. Gero wasn't even someone we knew about. He had been analyzing our fighters for a long time.
-Second verse same almost same as the first.
-Hard to kill brings drama, the issue is when Goku blows off his head and he's fine.
-No rebuttal to that, it's weird too.
-They at least explained that, even if it's farfetched to some.
The point is we don't want it anywhere. Really it's impossible to please everyone so what I may find problems, you don't. What I may see stupid, you think is good enough. There's no real convincing. There's also the fact of how good something turns out. If FNF is really good, that makes me suspend my disbelief. If it doesn't satisfy, then the problems I have are more glaring.
