Who is the stronger Fusion: Vegetto or Gogeta?

Taku128 · Post by **Taku128** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:46 pm

With the fusion dance, their Power Levels (*barfs*(I don't know the sub term, if there is one, but power levels in general make me barf)) have to be equal, so the stronger one has to lower their power level. That's all I'm contributing to this topic, as the debating of strength makes me nausious.

Li'l Lemmy · Post by **Li'l Lemmy** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:57 pm

Taku128 wrote:With the fusion dance, their Power Levels (*barfs*(I don't know the sub term, if there is one, but power levels in general make me barf)) have to be equal, so the stronger one has to lower their power level. That's all I'm contributing to this topic, as the debating of strength makes me nausious.

Battle power and combat strength are common enough terms in the original, for an alternative.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:11 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Mr.Piccolo wrote:Vegetto is based more on Vegeta correct?
Er... Nope?

Do you have any information to back this up? I have a small quote from the daizex website saying this

There's a website too? wrote:Similar to Gotenks, Vegetto has his own personality and attitude. He's got the confidence and fighting smarts of Goku, along with the cocky grin and brute strength of Vegeta; in other words, the perfect fusion.

The name Vegetto is based on Vegeta and Goku's saiyan name. Goku never refers to himself as Kakarrot but Vegeta obviously does. So its safe to say Vegetto's arrogance is based on Mr. Vegeta, right?

-rick

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:42 pm

Mr.Piccolo wrote:Do you have any information to back this up?

Nowhere does it say that Vegetto is more based on Vegeta. There's no reason to believe he is.

BrollysKin · Post by **BrollysKin** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:08 pm

Olivier, why do you try to make an arguement out of EVERYTHING? There is a lot to back up this thought. Vegetto has VEGE first. Gogeta has GO first.

Hmm... I guess that does sound silly. But I think what name comes first tells a lot about what their personality is.

Also Vegetto is obviously more arrogant than Gogeta. Vegeta is more arrogant than Goku. See how that works out.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:24 pm

BrollysKin wrote:Also Vegetto is obviously more arrogant than Gogeta.

Because he was trying to be. He had to drag the fight out until Buu tried to absorb him.

BrollysKin · Post by **BrollysKin** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:39 pm

Hmm... That may be thinking too far into it.

If that point doesn't sit well with you. Vegetto looks more like Vegeta than Goku.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:15 am

BrollysKin wrote:If that point doesn't sit well with you. Vegetto looks more like Vegeta than Goku.

But Gogeta doesn't really look much like Goku.

BrollysKin · Post by **BrollysKin** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:21 am

I think he does.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:58 am

BrollysKin wrote:Olivier, why do you try to make an arguement out of EVERYTHING?

I don't, but thanks for putting it that way...

There is a lot to back up this thought.

There isn't anything to back up that thought. They never said anything about one of the two fused characters being "dominant". And it would seem... I don't know, simply natural to assume that fusions are simply 50/50. The rest is wild speculation.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:42 am

This chaos will likely never end. But for some reason I'm going to post my thoughts anyway.

I always felt that Vegeto was at least at the same range of power as SSJ4, or at least close. But I only have dub dialogue to go on.
When "mystic" Gohan came and started owning Majin Buu, Trunks commented that when he and Goten were fused they were stronger than Buu, but Goten corrected him, saying "We were about equal". This says that "Mystic" Gohan is stronger than ssj3 Gotenks (which we all basically know), and suggests a difference between the powers of these three and Goku at SSJ3 (but we don't have much to go on for comparing this form of Buu with the Fat Buu, but it seems likely that he is stronger than Fat Buu; how much Goku was holding back in his fight as SSJ3 is unknown, though.).

After Buu absorbed Piccolo and Gotenks, he was able to slap Gohan around pretty well, although Gohan still put up a decent fight (sort of...). When Gotenks split inside of Super Buu, someone (I think it was Goku) commented that he had lost over a third of his power (meaning that the fusion was greater than the sum of its components. We could try to use laws of pressure and such stuff to explain that, but suffice it to say we have a Captain Planet effect).

That still gives us an area of accuracy in gauging Super Buu's power; Piccolo, Goten and Trunks (not fused) clearly still increased his power (because they are significantly powerful people), and if Gotenks was "about" equal with Buu prior to absorbing people, we can probably do some equation BS to make an inequality for each component power (I won't though).
Then Buu absorbs Gohan, which clearly increases his power by ... a lot, because Gohan was beating his "base" form (no one absorbed besides Fat Buu). This means that Super Buu had at least the sum of power (unless absorption did not give him totally added powers, or if it did something even more) of SSJ3 Gotenks (his base power being equal to SSJ3), three with powers somewhere between ssj and ssj2 (Goten, Piccolo, and Trunks), and then Gohan, who was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, meaning that Super Buu's power was now well over twice that of SSJ3 Gotenks, perhaps closer to three times that.

Vegeto then manhandles this form of Buu with minimal effort, meaning that, in only his SSJ state, Vegeto is stronger than a couple SSJ3s and then some (if we want to be nerds, say Buu's power is now e*ssj3! Just because I want to use e...).

That's as far as we can go though. It's almost certain that Vegeto was strong enough to defeat Super Buu (although you can debate that if you want). Whether or not Kid/Chibi Buu is weaker than this ultra mega super Buu of doom I don't know (but I'm guessing the "pure" Buu is weaker since SSJ3 Goku fought him decently, but that's a different level of speculation).

Uub was reincarnated with the same base energy of Kid/Chibi Buu (conservation of energy is behind the concept, I think, but that doesn't mean he couuldn't have improved afterward).
Uub+Fat Buu in GT seemed to have a power close to that of Beibi Vegeta (prior to the Golden Oozaru transformation), but whether or not he could have one is in question since he supposedly let himself get eaten. (Movie12 Gogeta has less to base the power on than GT Gogeta, so I don't mention him). The only reason I mention Uub here is because this fight is all we have to gauge stuff concerning the Pure Majin Buu+Fat Buu compared to Fat Buu + Evil Buu.

SSJ4 Goku was still about even to Golden Oozaru Beibi Vegeta (Ok, Abreviations win! Because my spelling doesn't.) after the huge power up he got from the Bruutz wave generator (...). However, SSJ3 Goku that fought BV is harder to gauge than Adult SSJ3 Goku; we only know that Goku's body couldn't sustain the transformation as well as his adult body, but we don't know how that affected his power; therefore comparing SSJ4 Goku to SSJ33 Goku is pretty difficult. (Goku did Comment that Rildo/Rirudo was stronger than Majin Buu, which seems very very hard to believe based on what we know...).

GOBV was stronger than Majin Buu though. But was he stronger than Super Buu with a million people in him?

We know that SSJ4Gogeta was stronger than SSJ4 Goku, who was about even with GOBV. Goku said that Fusion wouldn't work against GOBV (in the dub), which is a very ... Toei thing to say... but the meaning of that statement is hard to figure (and besides, Super Buu's fight with Vegeto was far stronger than Gotenks).

I don't think SSJ4Goku had trouble with the dragons like he did with GOBV until the One-star dragon (I will not make a fool of myself by trying to spell his name without looking first...). So beyond this we have little to say other than SSJ4Gogeta seemed to be stronger in some capacity than full-power evil Dragon, or at least equal enough to toy with him.

So we have that Vegeto was at least stronger than two ssj3Gotenks (somewhere between 2 and 3 times).
We have that Beibi Vegeta was at least stronger than Fat and Pure Buu individually, but seemed equal to them when fused (this is more speculation than the rest).
We know that GOBV was almost equal to SSJ4Goku based on their fight.
We know that GOBV was stronger than not-transformed Beibi Vegeta.
And that's where our ability to compare ends. If we can fill in the gap between Beibi Vegeta and the one-star dragon, we can have a comparison for the maximum power used by Vegeto and Gogeta, but we don't have that information.
Note, however, that SSJ4 Gogeta requird Goku and Vegeta at SSJ4, while Vegeto was able to reach a power somewhere near to SSJ4 while only showing the signs of normal SSJ. That leads me to believe that Vegeto might be stronger, but there are simply too many gaps to tell for sure.

[edit] Oh wow, did I say ssj33Goku? That was supposed to be SSJ3, but I'll leave it. I also see a weirdo sentence error (A fight was more powerful than someone?)... o.o. It never fails that when I get into making a point, my wording goes to HFIL...[/edit]

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:15 am

Olivier Hague wrote:
BrollysKin wrote:Olivier, why do you try to make an arguement out of EVERYTHING?
I don't, but thanks for putting it that way...

There is a lot to back up this thought.
There isn't anything to back up that thought. They never said anything about one of the two fused characters being "dominant". And it would seem... I don't know, simply natural to assume that fusions are simply 50/50. The rest is wild speculation.

Well, when we assume you make a... Anyway, when both of the Kaioshin fuse you clearly see that personality of one dominant character. Don't believe me? Anytime Kibitoshin speaks about the past, he talking about Kaioshin. He also refers to the teleportation as Kibito's technique. He also speaks with one voice which is Kaioshin. He never carried the negative way of thinking like Kibito did; even through GT.

The Elder Kai refers speaks in one voice and even says he gained power from a witch and goes on how he used to be handsome. Even though he is fused with her, his personality sticks out.. there is a dominant character. Do you think the witch he fused with would want to see Bulma or Chi-Chi, no. Is this stuff making sense or is this just more "wild speculation"?

-rick

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:56 am

Mr.Piccolo wrote: Well, when we assume you make a... Anyway, when both of the Kaioshin fuse you clearly see that personality of one dominant character. Don't believe me? Anytime Kibitoshin speaks about the past, he talking about Kaioshin. He also refers to the teleportation as Kibito's technique. He also speaks with one voice which is Kaioshin. He never carried the negative way of thinking like Kibito did; even through GT.

The Elder Kai refers speaks in one voice and even says he gained power from a witch and goes on how he used to be handsome. Even though he is fused with her, his personality sticks out.. there is a dominant character. Do you think the witch he fused with would want to see Bulma or Chi-Chi, no. Is this stuff making sense or is this just more "wild speculation"?

-rick

But Vegetto speaks with two voices.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:23 pm

Yes, but his attitude is more like Vegeta's. The point about the voices wasn't the theme of what I was saying; it was just an example. I was saying even though two characters fuse, there is going to be a one dominant fusee and what I said about the Kaioshin supported all of that.

-rick

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:51 pm

Mr.Piccolo wrote:Yes, but his attitude is more like Vegeta's.

Because Gokû never was like that? See the fight against Freeza.

BrollysKin · Post by **BrollysKin** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:19 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Mr.Piccolo wrote:Yes, but his attitude is more like Vegeta's.
Because Gokû never was like that? See the fight against Freeza.

But he said to Gohan to run away because he couldn't control his new powers. It was because of his saiyan instincts. Usually Goku is fairly level headed.

I don't know, we have just refered to several different points. If you don't see it now maybe we should stop trying...

Maker777 · Post by **Maker777** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:20 pm

I agree. Theres no way to really find out unless the fight. Which is impossible. Yet.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:54 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Mr.Piccolo wrote:Yes, but his attitude is more like Vegeta's.
Because Gokû never was like that? See the fight against Freeza.

Wow. In an attempt to "win" in this discussion, you try to convince yourself that I make it like Goku is never cocky? The examples are there. Your statements don't really say anything; its like you respond by saying "Oh yeah, why". To be honest, I've never seen you back up anything you've ever said in this forum; I wish I could say the same for your disregard for almost every post you come across.. Are these kinds of discussions what you actually live for ...?

-rick

SuperFusion · Post by **SuperFusion** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:39 pm

Why are we arguing about this when there's really no real way to know without Toriyama's confirmation?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:48 pm

Mr.Piccolo wrote:
Olivier Hague wrote:
Mr.Piccolo wrote:Yes, but his attitude is more like Vegeta's.
Because Gokû never was like that? See the fight against Freeza.
Wow. In an attempt to "win" in this discussion, you try to convince yourself that I make it like Goku is never cocky?

I'm simply pointing out that Gokû does get cocky, sometimes.

And really, even if you make Gokû not so cocky, and Vegeta quite cocky, well, yeah, I guess a fusion of the two is going to be more cocky than Gokû. What does that tell us? Not much, really. Unless we can get our hands on an arrogance-o-meter to see exactly how cocky Vegetto is, compared to Vegeta. And even then, we'd also have to consider everything else, aside from the arrogance... 'Sounds like fun.

The examples are there.

But they're based on pretty subjective opinions and observations, not on actual statements in the series, guides, etc. That's about as reliable as "a Super Saiyan 3 looks twice as shiny as a Super Saiyan 2, so I guess it's twice as powerful."
Speculations like that are nice and all, but in the end, they're just that. You can't just flat out say that "Vegetto is more based on Vegeta".

To be honest, I've never seen you back up anything you've ever said in this forum

What can I say? I guess you didn't pay enough attention...

I wish I could say the same for your disregard for almost every post you come across..

Yeah, "almost every post". Sure. I'm all over the board. Always. And in every topic.
*sigh*
Give me a break, will you?