Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[Birusu16]

And it was also stated that Goku had to take advantage of Freeza losing stamina and power in order to do that. You seem to be willfully ignoring that. The fact is that Goku nor Vegeta were beating Freeza at his full power. Freeza's power and stamina were draining in his fight with Goku and he was weakened in his fight with Vegeta.

...literally EVERYONE'S stamina drains when they fight. It's the problem Goku had when fighting Buu; SSJ3 burned through his stamina far too quickly. You gonna argue Buu never fought Goku at 100%?

Heck, the moment you get a good hit in on someone they're not at 100%. Literally any transformation would thus mean the Saiyans never fought at 100%.

Are you seeing the problem with this logic yet?

Are you? Because it's made abundantly clear that Goku had to take advantage of the fact that Freeza was losing power and stamina in their fight in order to gain the upper hand, which immediately dismisses the idea that Goku was capable of beating him at full power (100%). You can sit here and ignore it all you like. It won't change.

[dbzfan7]

Oh cool I missed the scene where they gave Freeza a Senzu to fight Vegeta at 100% like when he fought Goku.

And his power and stamina continuously drained in his fight with Goku. Hardly something to be proud of. Goku didn't in anyway defeat him at full power.

Let's put it this way. Goku fought Freeza at 100% power and we'll say once Freeza won he still had 65% of his power after that fight. Vegeta essentially fought Freeza at 65% power and it continually went down to make things easier for Vegeta. See the difference? Freeza was softened for Vegeta, but Goku had to fight a fresh Freeza. You'd have a point if Freeza got a senzu and fought Vegeta with all his stamina and power being back at 100%

[SansrivaaL]

And it was also stated that Goku had to take advantage of Freeza losing stamina and power in order to do that. You seem to be willfully ignoring that. The fact is that Goku nor Vegeta were beating Freeza at his full power. Freeza's power and stamina were draining in his fight with Goku and he was weakened in his fight with Vegeta.

...literally EVERYONE'S stamina drains when they fight. It's the problem Goku had when fighting Buu; SSJ3 burned through his stamina far too quickly. You gonna argue Buu never fought Goku at 100%?

Heck, the moment you get a good hit in on someone they're not at 100%. Literally any transformation would thus mean the Saiyans never fought at 100%.

Are you seeing the problem with this logic yet?

Are you? Because it's made abundantly clear that Goku had to take advantage of the fact that Freeza was losing power and stamina in their fight in order to gain the upper hand, which immediately dismisses the idea that Goku was capable of beating him at full power (100%). You can sit here and ignore it all you like. It won't change.

And it seemed frieza wasnt confident that he could beat goku since obviously he needed help from sorbet.

[Birusu16]

And it was also stated that Goku had to take advantage of Freeza losing stamina and power in order to do that. You seem to be willfully ignoring that. The fact is that Goku nor Vegeta were beating Freeza at his full power. Freeza's power and stamina were draining in his fight with Goku and he was weakened in his fight with Vegeta.

...literally EVERYONE'S stamina drains when they fight. It's the problem Goku had when fighting Buu; SSJ3 burned through his stamina far too quickly. You gonna argue Buu never fought Goku at 100%?

Heck, the moment you get a good hit in on someone they're not at 100%. Literally any transformation would thus mean the Saiyans never fought at 100%.

Are you seeing the problem with this logic yet?

If Freeza was fully aware of that drawback of his power, then it's 100% a fair fight. Even if Freeza is losing his power over time, he knew that fault beginning the battle, and Son Goku tried to use it to his advantage.

If Sorbet, in fact, is interfered with the fight, then that's a compromise on Freeza's behalf. Son Goku was going to win fair and square before that happened.

Nobody's arguing about it being a fair fight. It's this idea that Goku was capable of beating him at full power, which isn't remotely true at all considering it was specifically said that Goku had to take advantage of Freeza's weakness (losing stamina and power) in order to gain the advantage, but Sorbet offset that by interfering and thus giving Freeza the advantage again.

[ShadowWolf87]

And it was also stated that Goku had to take advantage of Freeza losing stamina and power in order to do that. You seem to be willfully ignoring that. The fact is that Goku nor Vegeta were beating Freeza at his full power. Freeza's power and stamina were draining in his fight with Goku and he was weakened in his fight with Vegeta.

...literally EVERYONE'S stamina drains when they fight. It's the problem Goku had when fighting Buu; SSJ3 burned through his stamina far too quickly. You gonna argue Buu never fought Goku at 100%?

Heck, the moment you get a good hit in on someone they're not at 100%. Literally any transformation would thus mean the Saiyans never fought at 100%.

Are you seeing the problem with this logic yet?

Are you? Because it's made abundantly clear that Goku had to take advantage of the fact that Freeza was losing power and stamina in their fight in order to gain the upper hand, which immediately dismisses the idea that Goku was capable of beating him at full power (100%). You can sit here and ignore it all you like. It won't change.

You really have no idea how a fight works, do you?

If you are a smaller, faster opponent facing a stronger, more powerful opponent, the tactic employed is to chip away at them and dodge, force them to wear themselves out and then go at them. That is a fair fight. That fight started with him at 100%. Even fighting on completely equal footing, neither fighter will be at 100% stamina by the end of the match. What you are complaining about is literally Goku utilizing battle tactics.

...literally EVERYONE'S stamina drains when they fight. It's the problem Goku had when fighting Buu; SSJ3 burned through his stamina far too quickly. You gonna argue Buu never fought Goku at 100%?

Heck, the moment you get a good hit in on someone they're not at 100%. Literally any transformation would thus mean the Saiyans never fought at 100%.

Are you seeing the problem with this logic yet?

If Freeza was fully aware of that drawback of his power, then it's 100% a fair fight. Even if Freeza is losing his power over time, he knew that fault beginning the battle, and Son Goku tried to use it to his advantage.

If Sorbet, in fact, is interfered with the fight, then that's a compromise on Freeza's behalf. Son Goku was going to win fair and square before that happened.

Nobody's arguing about it being a fair fight. It's this idea that Goku was capable of beating him at full power, which isn't remotely true at all considering it was specifically said that Goku had to take advantage of Freeza's weakness (losing stamina and power) in order to gain the advantage, but Sorbet offset that by interfering and thus giving Freeza the advantage again.

You seem to miss the fact that no one's saying that Goku brute forced Freeza, He had to fight smart and wear him out.

The reason this is even a conversation is from the contextual belief that Goku got stomped by Freeza but Vegeta overpowered him from pretty much the start of their fight. People are trying to utilize this to argue Vegeta has surpassed Goku, fought better than Goku, could have taken Freeza at full power, etc.

You're ignoring context for the sake of a fight over semantics.

[Birusu16]

Oh cool I missed the scene where they gave Freeza a Senzu to fight Vegeta at 100% like when he fought Goku.

And his power and stamina continuously drained in his fight with Goku. Hardly something to be proud of. Goku didn't in anyway defeat him at full power.

Let's put it this way. Goku fought Freeza at 100% power and we'll say once Freeza won he still had 65% of his power after that fight. Vegeta essentially fought Freeza at 65% power and it continually went down to make things easier for Vegeta. See the difference? Freeza was softened for Vegeta, but Goku had to fight a fresh Freeza. You'd have a point if Freeza got a senzu and fought Vegeta with all his stamina and power being back at 100%

And you're not seeing my point. My point was that neither Goku or Vegeta fought and defeated a full power Freeza. They were both winning against a less than 100% Freeza. And we really don't know how weakened Freeza was after his fight with Goku. Nothing suggests anything at this point. He could be only slightly weakened or drastically weakened.

[KaiserNeko]

Nobody's arguing about it being a fair fight. It's this idea that Goku was capable of beating him at full power, which isn't remotely true at all considering it was specifically said that Goku had to take advantage of Freeza's weakness (losing stamina and power) in order to gain the advantage, but Sorbet offset that by interfering and thus giving Freeza the advantage again.

But Freeza would never have been able to stand up to Goku if it weren't for that form, which came with a drawback.

When you fight somebody, you always take advantage of their weaknesses. Always. Otherwise, you're only handicapping yourself. Nobody is trying to say Son Goku could beat him in this, again imaginary, scenario where Freeza could keep that power level the entire time. Sorbet's involvement is the closest thing you can get to cheating; it's not nearly at ALL equivalent to Son Goku taking advantage of Freeza's weaknesses.

[JulieYBM]

Battles are rarely fought in predictable, stable conditions. That being said, I don't really mind. Unpredictable conditions and outcomes are exciting. If Gokuu and Vegeta get to end a fight saying "Damn, that wasn't satisfying enough!" we know they've added a little more color to their score cards.

[Birusu16]

And it seemed Freeza wasnt confident that he could beat goku since obviously he needed help from sorbet.

Considering he was constantly losing power and stamina, that's not surprising. And we don't even know if Freeza even asked for Sorbet's help. All we know is Sorbet interfered.

You really have no idea how a fight works, do you?

If you are a smaller, faster opponent facing a stronger, more powerful opponent, the tactic employed is to chip away at them and dodge, force them to wear themselves out and then go at them. That is a fair fight. That fight started with him at 100%. Even fighting on completely equal footing, neither fighter will be at 100% stamina by the end of the match. What you are complaining about is literally Goku utilizing battle tactics.

I know exactly how a fight works. Don't sit here and try and belittle me because you misunderstand my point.

[ShadowWolf87]

You really have no idea how a fight works, do you?

If you are a smaller, faster opponent facing a stronger, more powerful opponent, the tactic employed is to chip away at them and dodge, force them to wear themselves out and then go at them. That is a fair fight. That fight started with him at 100%. Even fighting on completely equal footing, neither fighter will be at 100% stamina by the end of the match. What you are complaining about is literally Goku utilizing battle tactics.

I know exactly how a fight works. Don't sit here and try and belittle me because you misunderstand my point.

Your point is moot as no one is arguing against it. Goku still faced Freeza at 100%. No one said Goku could beat him if he never weakened over time.

[Sora Saiyan]

The hells going on, we haven't even seen the movie yet and we're arguing who's more powerful out of Goku and Vegeta? (Right?) I can't see either one being much more powerful than the other. I could be wrong but I'll reserve that judgement until I see the film, from what spoilers I've read it's practically impossible to tell who's more powerful.

[dbzfan7]

And you're not seeing my point. My point was that neither Goku or Vegeta fought and defeated a full power Freeza. They were both winning against a less than 100% Freeza. And we really don't know how weakened Freeza was after his fight with Goku. Nothing suggests anything at this point. He could be only slightly weakened or drastically weakened.

There's a difference. Goku fought Freeza fresh and weakening and nearly won. Vegeta fought Freeza while weakened and still losing power and nearly won. Could Vegeta have done the same as Goku and fought fresh Freeza, probably. However he didn't. He looks even worse because he couldn't put a stop to a weakened Freeza, while Goku was about to put a stop to a fresh Freeza. Whis did say Goku is always one step ahead of Vegeta, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's still is in this movie.

[EA575]

I'm being reminded of Dragon Ball New Age where Rigor's SSJ4 became his base state in power. So he just looked like a normal saiyan, but had the power of SSJ4. Then he had one transformation to go beyond to SSJ5. Here we have God and now the base state essentially be the new god state, and now there's a state beyond it.

Heh, that sounds just like what's happening here.

The blue hair SS is just SS using God Ki as source of power instead of the normal mortal ki.

So it looks like they can't turn into normal SSJ anymore? Not that I'm complaining, though. Normal SSJ will probably be useless against any future movie villains, just like how SSJ3 was useless against Beerus (funny how that was the first thing Toriyama showed when demonstrating Beerus's strength).

[SansrivaaL]

And it seemed Freeza wasnt confident that he could beat goku since obviously he needed help from sorbet.

Considering he was constantly losing power and stamina, that's not surprising. And we don't even know if Freeza even asked for Sorbet's help. All we know is Sorbet interfered.

Thats his own weakness therefore he knew he could not maintain it meaning he cannot beat goku thus enter sorbet, theres a high chance freeza ordered him to do so since after the dmg had been done sorbet says "it went according to the stategy" thus vegeta reacting and kills sorbet.

[Birusu16]

You seem to miss the fact that no one's saying that Goku brute forced Freeza, He had to fight smart and wear him out.

The reason this is even a conversation is from the contextual belief that Goku got stomped by Freeza but Vegeta overpowered him from pretty much the start of their fight. People are trying to utilize this to argue Vegeta has surpassed Goku, fought better than Goku, could have taken Freeza at full power, etc.

You're ignoring context for the sake of a fight over semantics.

No. You interfered in an argument that didn't concern you in the first place. What you're talking about wasn't what I was discussing in anyway. What I was discussing was the belief that Goku managed to fight and beat a fully powered Freeza while Vegeta didn't when that wasn't even remotely the case. He had to rely on exploiting a weakness in order to gain the advantage just like Freeza had to against Vegeta. Goku wasn't stronger than Freeza just like Freeza wasn't stronger than Vegeta when he fought him despite both gaining the upper through exploiting weaknesses.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Well blue SS is their normal SS now. At least thats what I understand.

[FortuneSSJ]

By the way, check out this train in Japan. I'm guessing this sort of heavy advertising is the norm over there?

Spoiler:

https://twitter.com/starcatN3000/status ... 4168141824

Thats literally the HYPE Train! All aboard. Lets ride on that!

[dbzfan7]

Well blue SS is their normal SS now. At least thats what I understand.

Apparently blue ain't such a weak colour now . So Toriyama seemingly changed his mind on both Vegeta and the colour blue.

[Birusu16]

And you're not seeing my point. My point was that neither Goku or Vegeta fought and defeated a full power Freeza. They were both winning against a less than 100% Freeza. And we really don't know how weakened Freeza was after his fight with Goku. Nothing suggests anything at this point. He could be only slightly weakened or drastically weakened.

There's a difference. Goku fought Freeza fresh and weakening and nearly won. Vegeta fought Freeza while weakened and still losing power and nearly won. Could Vegeta have done the same as Goku and fought fresh Freeza, probably. However he didn't. He looks even worse because he couldn't put a stop to a weakened Freeza, while Goku was about to put a stop to a fresh Freeza. Whis did say Goku is always one step ahead of Vegeta, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's still is in this movie.

I'm sorry but how exactly do you know Goku almost nearly won? Where was that ever stated? All I've seen was that Goku was planning on taking advantage of Freeza losing power and stamina (which implies he was actually losing) in order to gain the upper hand and then Sorbet interfered.

[Lord Beerus]

Well blue SS is their normal SS now. At least thats what I understand.

I don't think that would be the case. SSJ God and regular SSJ are still gonna be treated as separate transformation, until we know better.