Full Power Super Saiyan Multiplier

[Noah]

Based on "The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread" http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 97#p386458

I have a question, FPSSJ has no multiplier? I mean, it's the mastered form of a Super Saiyan it makes no sense that's still only 50x base form

still basing on "The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread"

Multipliers
Super Saiyan ~ 50x base
Super Saiyan Grade 2 ~ 75x base
Super Saiyan Grade 3 ~ 90x base

And is said that Vegeta and Trunks weren't Ascend Super Saiyans (SSJ Grade 2) in the Cell Games, why? Is this something even stated? I don't see how they couldn't, because SSJ Grade 2 is above from a normal SSJ in a matter of power increase, why would they hold back against the Cell Juniors? Also if we go into that way, why didn't Goku go Ascended against Cell since SSJ Grade 2 > FPSSJ?

Another idea for me that FPSSJ has to have a multiplier it is because it would explain why Goten and Trunks were so strong, because they were born with the ability to transform in FPSSJ without all the stages that Vegeta, Mirai Trunks, Gohan and Goku had to pass

[ZazamPow]

Honestly, the idea of a Super Saiyan multiplier has never been consistent with the story. After obtaining the form, Goku spent his time powering the form itself up, not his base. I don't think Toriyama put much thought into exactly how Super Saiyan works, but I don't think a multiplier is really what he had in mind.

[Kaboom]

The idea is that mastering Super Saiyan doesn't make the form stronger in and of itself, but it makes it much easier for you to become stronger through training.

It seems to me that training while maintaining the Super Saiyan form is a huge boon to your strength increases, but normally, just maintaining the form is just too draining and stressful, which both limits the time you can spend in the form and wastes too much energy and stamina that would otherwise be used for the training. But once you eliminate that stress and can freely and easily remain as a Super Saiyan, that's no longer a problem.

You can now train to your heart's content in the form and net some huge power increases from it. Which is what Goku and Gohan did, and they became so much stronger overall, base form included, that even with an "inferior" transformation with a lower "multiplier," they soundly surpassed Vegeta and Trunks. Something like...

Vegeta: 10
-- Super Saiyan (x50): 500
-- Super Saiyan Grade 2 (x75): 750
Goku: 40
-- Super Saiyan (x50): 2000

The Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume points out in it's guide to Goku's training increases that "constantly being a Super Saiyan" was one of the main factors in his Room of Spirit and Time training, along with "meditation" and "sparring with another Super Saiyan." Which matches what we see in the manga... Goku and Gohan master Super Saiyan to the point it comes naturally, and then they spar a lot. Compared to Vegeta and Trunks who pushed for the "beyond Super Saiyan" forms and then trained separately, it's no surprise that Goku and Gohan ended up stronger.

[dbgtFO]

Honestly, the idea of a Super Saiyan multiplier has never been consistent with the story. After obtaining the form, Goku spent his time powering the form itself up, not his base. I don't think Toriyama put much thought into exactly how Super Saiyan works, but I don't think a multiplier is really what he had in mind.

Agreed.

I prefer to see it as the muscled forms being a rushed way of gaining power. Vegeta and Trunks were basically forcing power through, but their bodies couldn't properly handle it and that resulted in their ineffecient bulky forms.
Training the way Goku and Gohan did was the best way to go about handling that power, as their bodies naturally got used to the power and so didn't bulk up. It took far longer time, but in the end it was more beneficial, as they ended up with more power, but without the disadvantages.
In regards to a multiplier, it makes the most sense to me, that it wouldn't be 50x, but much higher than that after Goku and Gohan's training.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

As far as we know (according to the daizenshuus) :
SSJ1= Base form powerlevel multiply by 50
SSJ2= SSJ1 powerlevel multiply by 2
SSJ3= SSJ2 powerlevel multiply by 4
SSJ4= Yet to be explained.
SSJGod= Yet to be explained.

FPSSJ is not exactly a stronger version of the base SSJ1 (Like a SSJ1.5) but you can think of that as the regular SSJ1 transformacion without (or downplayed) its drawbacks such as stamina draining,rage fueled, burning down the body,etc.

[Doctor.]

I honestly think that mastering the Super Saiyan transformation allows you to increase the multiplier with training. Just a theory, obviously, but it fits with Toriyama's comment about BoG, and with Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Vegeta using SSJ to train in the Boo arc.

[Duo]

Does the multiplier from base to Super Saiyan even matter after Namek? I really can't see how it's even possible to answer the question objectively when the issue doesn't matter in the story.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

I honestly think that mastering the Super Saiyan transformation allows you to increase the multiplier with training. Just a theory, obviously, but it fits with Toriyama's comment about BoG, and with Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Vegeta using SSJ to train in the Boo arc.

I think that mastering each form only allows you to waterdown the drawbacks, the multipler aspect of each transformation suffers no change at all.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Super Saiyan Full Power isn't stronger than Super Saiyan, but it's better. It doesn't change the user's personality, and it doesn't consume ki, plus, it give huge gains in the process of achieving it. The boost it gives is still x50, however.

[buutenks]

Well here is what i think.

In namek saga,its 50x according to the last power levels.

In cell saga,nothing is shown to disprove this and might even reinforce it with the base goku surprise punching dr gero and barely moving his head,while ssj goku was leagues above android 20 even though he wasnt at his strongest(piccolo stating that goku should be much stronger),until the heart problem starts wearing him down and slowing draining his energy.

In buu saga,we got the kilis PL thing,where yakon is 800,base goku can avoid his hits,but is close,so proly around 1 k and then as ssj its 3 k.But then we have the 40 ton thing.goku trains with 2 tons on each limb is shown to be sweating and straining,then its changed to 10 tons on each limb,goes ssj and he does it without even breaking a sweat,even going as far as kicking and punching at super speed,obviously if it would be only a 3x increase this would be impossible.My theory is that since goku mastered ssj,he just went ssj but he was suppressing his power,cos why bother going to max in ssj1 when u learned to control your ki in ssj1 form.

So i guess the 50x thing still holds.

[Captain Sauza]

IMO, SSJ being a multiplier of x50 only applies to Goku's first transformation on Namek. Every other instance I just see them being conventiently as strong as the plot calls for it.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I personally like reducing the multiplier for Mastered Super Saiyan to like 4x or so, just to work with things like Gotenks, the only problem I run into is the base kids being multiple times stronger than #18, which is obviously wrong. And it's not like I can give them a different multiplier, since they are Mastered Super Saiyans. So I'm stuck with 50x.

[Noah]

The Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume points out in it's guide to Goku's training increases that "constantly being a Super Saiyan" was one of the main factors in his Room of Spirit and Time training, along with "meditation" and "sparring with another Super Saiyan." Which matches what we see in the manga... Goku and Gohan master Super Saiyan to the point it comes naturally, and then they spar a lot. Compared to Vegeta and Trunks who pushed for the "beyond Super Saiyan" forms and then trained separately, it's no surprise that Goku and Gohan ended up stronger.

But how could Trunks and Vegeta were holding back against Cell Juniors? I'm mean they only discovered the way that Goku and Gohan went for their training after the Cell Games, I presume. So they could still be Ascended against those little brats.

Does the multiplier from base to Super Saiyan even matter after Namek? I really can't see how it's even possible to answer the question objectively when the issue doesn't matter in the story.

Yes, it matters because we're talking about Power Levels and not about the story itself.

Super Saiyan Full Power isn't stronger than Super Saiyan, but it's better. It doesn't change the user's personality, and it doesn't consume ki, plus, it give huge gains in the process of achieving it. The boost it gives is still x50, however.

I could consider that after they achieved SSJ2, but I don't know... If still was only x50, I can't see why didn't Goku go Ascended against Cell, even if he could defeat him it, he would have more power to worn him out even more.

I personally like reducing the multiplier for Mastered Super Saiyan to like 4x or so, just to work with things like Gotenks, the only problem I run into is the base kids being multiple times stronger than #18, which is obviously wrong. And it's not like I can give them a different multiplier, since they are Mastered Super Saiyans. So I'm stuck with 50x.

And that's what makes me think, that FPSSJ have indeed a multiplier, Goten and Trunks should be just slight stronger than Goku was in Namek.

[Kaboom]

But how could Trunks and Vegeta were holding back against Cell Juniors? I'm mean they only discovered the way that Goku and Gohan went for their training after the Cell Games, I presume. So they could still be Ascended against those little brats.

Vegeta and Trunks didn't have the larger muscles and fiercer aura of Grade 2 when they fought the Cell Juniors... so from the looks of it, they'd probably abandoned the forms and started focusing on regular Super Saiyan, too. When Goku and Gohan left the Room of Spirit and TIme, Vegeta recognized right off the bat what they had done, and then felt the power they gained from it when Goku revved up for Karin.

So it stands to reason that he'd take that same path himself if he knew it'd get him more power. It's likely that he and Trunks simply didn't manage to gain as much strength, because they had less remaining time in the Room and trained solo instead of sparring.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

And that's what makes me think, that FPSSJ have indeed a multiplier, Goten and Trunks should be just slight stronger than Goku was in Namek.

Uuuhh, no. The kids far outstrip Namek Goku.

[Dayspring]

I always take the SSJ Multipliers with a grain of salt. Equivalents instead of equals. For example, Goku on Namek going from 3,000,000 to 150,000,000 means he became 50x, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's a straight multiplier. It just means that he can tap into 50x more power than his base state.

In other words, he can tap into 150,000,000 units of power while in an untrained SSJ state, which at that point is equal to 50x his base by pure coincidence. Once trained, he might be able to tap into 275,000,000 power, but his base state might only be 3,500,000.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, I don't think the multipliers are super-strict in a mathematical sense. Someone who's really good with Super Saiyan might get a little more out of it, and someone who never trains and can barely transform at all would get a little less.

But if EVERYTHING out there with even a smidge of official authority says, "Super Saiyan makes you 50x stronger," then I don't see any need to discard that.

[Lord Beerus]

FPSSJ has no multiplier. It's just SSJ with less of a drawback on stamina, ki and less of a chance to fall under the usual personality changes that SSJ provides.

[Tectorman]

I never got an answer to this in the other thread, but I'd like to bounce it around here.

Looking at Vegeta's fight with Semi-Cell:

Did Vegeta need Grade 2 to fight Cell? Could he have fought evenly with just Grade 1? Alternatively, was Vegeta's SSJ matched with Semi-Cell in terms of speed but not strength and power?

And going to Goku's decision to stick with SSJ:

Goku denounces the Grade 3 form as useful for two reasons: it kills the fighter's speed, and its energy draw is very inefficient. But he earlier referred to Grade 3 as simply another step up from Grade 2. Was he denouncing Grade 2 for the same reasons (speed killer and energy guzzler)?

...

The way I see it, Vegeta was outclassed by Semi-Cell, even at Grade 1. At this point in the series, he's arrogant enough to let his enemies get a few hits in if he thinks he can take it. But he immediately goes to Grade 2. I think he needed its power and I think we're meant to understand this as including his speed. Remember, it's not until Grade 3 that we learn there's a speed killer factor to this transformation, so it must not have been a factor when Vegeta used it to get the advantage over Cell. I.e., Grade 2 wasn't a speed killer when Vegeta used it over Grade 1.

But Goku calls Grade 3 a speed killer. And he doesn't even decide to attempt mastering Grade 2; he goes all the way back to Grade 1 and decides that it's the transformation that will carry the day. Which makes Grade 2 a speed killer in comparison with what he theorized he'd get out of a mastered Grade 1. Otherwise, wouldn't he have attempted or even considered mastering Grade 2?

Algebraically, if X > Y and Y > Z, then X > Z.

Ergo, if Grade 4 is faster than Grade 2 and Grade 2 is faster than Grade 1, then Grade 4 must be faster than Grade 1. And must have the same higher multiplier regarding everything else. Right?

Though it does raise the question of how Goku could have been clued in on what SSJ could ultimately do. Why its mastered form would be better than a hypothetical "Mastered Grade 2". And don't we know that Goku's SSJ on Namek was a x50 multiplier?

So here's my theory about that:

There are three versions of SSJ.

1) It cannot be used at will, but only in response to some event triggering the "Pure Heart plus Pure Rage" requirement. The gain from this is that the Pure Rage is arrived at honestly. It has no significant energy drain, as Goku was able to fight Freeza for a long while without the slightest effort at maintaining the form. It does not have to be artificially induced and consciously maintained, which I believe is what Goku was referring to when he told Gohan they had to get rid of the "restless feeling". This form is a x50 multiplier, and was only used by Goku, and maybe Future Trunks and Vegeta (since everyone else gains it in training).

2) It can be used at will, but the "Pure Rage" requirement, while it can be met, has to be consciously induced (creating a "restless feeling". Its gain is that the Saiyan doesn't need his best friend or mentor to die just to power up. It's a lower multiplier (maybe x35 or x40), but one that still provides plenty of power. Enough that Goku would elect to use it despite knowing it's not as strong as the first version. He accepts the slightly reduced power as a necessary evil to have a usable power-up without needing someone to die. This is what Gohan starts out using (since as far as we know, he had to try to be angry to transform).

3) The Saiyan trains the form until the consciously induced "Pure Rage" requirement is so second nature that it no longer has a "restless feeling" associated with it. This is the FPSSJ we're familiar with. When faced with an opponent stronger than his At-Will SSJ, an opponent probably faster than the Grades 2 and 3 he discovered, but one his first version of SSJ might have been strong and fast enough to handle (factoring in how much stronger he's gotten since Namek), Goku decides to make his At-Will SSJ as natural as the SSJ he used on Namek. This version has the x50 multiplier and is basically what every SSJ uses towards the end of the series.

What am I missing?

[TheUltimateVegito]

The idea is that mastering Super Saiyan doesn't make the form stronger in and of itself, but it makes it much easier for you to become stronger through training.

It seems to me that training while maintaining the Super Saiyan form is a huge boon to your strength increases, but normally, just maintaining the form is just too draining and stressful, which both limits the time you can spend in the form and wastes too much energy and stamina that would otherwise be used for the training. But once you eliminate that stress and can freely and easily remain as a Super Saiyan, that's no longer a problem.

You can now train to your heart's content in the form and net some huge power increases from it. Which is what Goku and Gohan did, and they became so much stronger overall, base form included, that even with an "inferior" transformation with a lower "multiplier," they soundly surpassed Vegeta and Trunks. Something like...

Vegeta: 10
-- Super Saiyan (x50): 500
-- Super Saiyan Grade 2 (x75): 750
Goku: 40
-- Super Saiyan (x50): 2000

The Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume points out in it's guide to Goku's training increases that "constantly being a Super Saiyan" was one of the main factors in his Room of Spirit and Time training, along with "meditation" and "sparring with another Super Saiyan." Which matches what we see in the manga... Goku and Gohan master Super Saiyan to the point it comes naturally, and then they spar a lot. Compared to Vegeta and Trunks who pushed for the "beyond Super Saiyan" forms and then trained separately, it's no surprise that Goku and Gohan ended up stronger.

Pretty much all of this. Though the MSSJ could be considered a form in itself due to it technically being another variation.

Vegeta and Trunks didn't have the larger muscles and fiercer aura of Grade 2 when they fought the Cell Juniors... so from the looks of it, they'd probably abandoned the forms and started focusing on regular Super Saiyan,

Probably. Though it's still easy to assume that they were either still using some form of an Ascended Level (Without increasing power enough to increase muscles) or using the non-Mastered Regular form. I highly doubt they were using the MSSJ form seeing as how they weren't maintaining their SSJ forms like Goku and Gohan did before the Cell Games and they were much weaker.

Keep in mind that by breaking the SSJ barrier, they also made their regular SSJ forms more efficient (Of course, still less efficient than MSSJ).