Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
GeeRod wrote:
So are you saying that with Whis rewinding time and Freeza not blowing up Earth his fight with Vegeta continue on and Vegeta defeated him? I don't think this is how it worked on the movie...
This is what happens after Whis rewinds time : "Once again, Freeza is on his hands and knees".
Being on his hands and knees = being defeated.
Show me a definition of "defeated" that says anything like that.
Specifically one that mentions galactic alien overlords that then proceed to destroy the planet out from under you.
Tsufuru wrote:i dont see how vegeta isnt seen as a winner tbh.
irrelevant if goku killed freezer or not.
its like me beating some1 to death and in the last second he pulla a gun.
Uh yeah. Sucks for you, because the guy with the gun won.
Tsufuru wrote:i dont see how vegeta isnt seen as a winner tbh.
irrelevant if goku killed freezer or not.
its like me beating some1 to death and in the last second he pulla a gun.
Depends was that fight you had a fight to the death with no rules (Like in the movie)? Cause if so, if that guy pulled a gun on you and kills you, then he wins cause you're dead. No amount of pre beatings changes that as that guy lives on to fight another day, and you'd be dead.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Show me a definition of "defeated" that says anything like that.
Specifically one that mentions galactic alien overlords that then proceed to destroy the planet out from under you.
Whis rewrote history by having Goku step in and kill Freeza AFTER he was on his knees defeated by Vegeta.
Good for Whis. If this was in universe discussion, you might have a point.
This, however, is not in universe discussion. As the movie occurred, Vegeta lost the first fight, was about to lose the second, and Goku, with help from Whis, saved the day.
GeeRod wrote:
So are you saying that with Whis rewinding time and Freeza not blowing up Earth his fight with Vegeta continue on and Vegeta defeated him? I don't think this is how it worked on the movie...
This is what happens after Whis rewinds time : "Once again, Freeza is on his hands and knees".
Who got him on his hands and knees ? Vegeta which = defeat.
And if wasn't for Goku knowing what will happen with his planet, Freeza would blow up the Earth AGAIN and Vegeta will die along. Goku is the real winner here, not Vegeta.
English is not my main language. Sorry if I make a mistake.
All this talk about Vegeta losing, but no one taking into account that Goku lost as well. They both let their guard down, the difference is that when Vegeta did it Freeza was even more desperate because it was his second beating, and Sorbet was dead (killed by Vegeta to try and SAVE Goku btw). The only difference is that Goku had a chance to do-over everything... thats some character development right there (said no one ever).
Sparko33 wrote:All this talk about Vegeta losing, but no one taking into account that Goku lost as well. They both let their guard down, the difference is that when Vegeta did it Freeza was even more desperate because it was his second beating, and Sorbet was dead (killed by Vegeta to try and SAVE Goku btw). The only difference is that Goku had a chance to do-over everything... thats some character development right there (said no one ever).
If the topic shifted to Goku, people would probably agree with you. But we've been talking about Vegeta.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Good for Whis. If this was in universe discussion, you might have a point.
This, however, is not in universe discussion. As the movie occurred, Vegeta lost the first fight, was about to lose the second, and Goku, with help from Whis, saved the day.
At least Yamcha fought the Saibaman at full power and didn't cower.
Sparko33 wrote:All this talk about Vegeta losing, but no one taking into account that Goku lost as well. They both let their guard down, the difference is that when Vegeta did it Freeza was even more desperate because it was his second beating, and Sorbet was dead (killed by Vegeta to try and SAVE Goku btw). The only difference is that Goku had a chance to do-over everything... thats some character development right there (said no one ever).
Goku did lose. Problem is some won't admit Vegeta did too.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Sparko33 wrote:All this talk about Vegeta losing, but no one taking into account that Goku lost as well. They both let their guard down, the difference is that when Vegeta did it Freeza was even more desperate because it was his second beating, and Sorbet was dead (killed by Vegeta to try and SAVE Goku btw). The only difference is that Goku had a chance to do-over everything... thats some character development right there (said no one ever).
Who says Goku won? we all know Goku lost as well due to his being over confident=foreshadowed a lot of times.
Difference is Goku lost in a not so embarrassing way since he actually fought Frieza fresh and had a strategy to drain Frieza's stamina and he was defeated cuz of Sorbet's ring beam thingy.
While on Vegeta's case he was nervous to fight with Frieza which is out of character since he never backs out a fight unless he knows he's outclassed from the getgo like the time with Beerus and also he fought Frieza worn out but still got himself outsmarted and killed.
Last edited by SansrivaaL on Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
This, however, is not in universe discussion. As the movie occurred, Vegeta lost the first fight, was about to lose the second, and Goku, with help from Whis, saved the day.
Goku saved the day because he knew Freeza was going to blow up the planet. Ever heard of the phrase 'hindsight is 20/20'? Yeah, Goku had an even better version of that. Goku also lost the first fight, but you don't see anyone calling him out on that; in fact in this thread there's more talk of Vegeta than there is of Goku, which says something about the movie... Also, don't use the term 'saved the day' like its something big, he knew what was going to happen, and anyone given that chance would have been able to do that; only reason it was him is because he's the main character, and the fact that Vegeta gets as much fan base and talk as the protagonist says a good deal about him, when the show isn't about him as a character.
GeeRod wrote:
And if wasn't for Goku knowing what will happen with his planet, Freeza would blow up the Earth AGAIN and Vegeta will die along. Goku is the real winner here, not Vegeta.
Vegeta had Freeza on his hands and Knees before Goku killed him.
Having someone in that position is win no matter how you look at it.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
Sparko33 wrote:Goku also lost the first fight, but you don't see anyone calling him out on that; in fact in this thread there's more talk of Vegeta than there is of Goku, which says something about the movie... Also, don't use the term 'saved the day' like its something big, he knew what was going to happen, and anyone given that chance would have been able to do that; only reason it was him is because he's the main character, and the fact that Vegeta gets as much fan base and talk as the protagonist says a good deal about him, when the show isn't about him as a character.
Because it's obvious Goku lost, no one is denying that. There's only more talk of Vegeta because some people are saddened that he didn't kill Freeza, so instead they overhype and take everything out of context to make him look better.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
If Resurrection of F was wwe Frieza would still be the heel champion. Had Whis not infeared Frieza wins against boyh Goku and Vegeta despite being weaker.
SansrivaaL wrote:Who says Goku won? we all know Goku lost as well due to his being over confident=foreshadowed a lot of times.
As I said before, they both lost in the end because of their character flaws. Vegeta probably took too long to finish Freeza off, giving him enough time to blow up the planet, and Goku let his guard down. I don't care how or if but both lost, so its kind of unfair that only Vegeta gets called out on this. The movie is about them growing as fighters since they are being held back by their character flaws; this is what would make a good discussion, not the toxic found in more than half the thread.
GeeRod wrote:
And if wasn't for Goku knowing what will happen with his planet, Freeza would blow up the Earth AGAIN and Vegeta will die along. Goku is the real winner here, not Vegeta.
Vegeta had Freeza on his hands and Knees before Goku killed him.
Having someone in that position is win no matter how you look at it.
And yet Freeza still killed him, that is a show of utter incompetence not superiority.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
This, however, is not in universe discussion. As the movie occurred, Vegeta lost the first fight, was about to lose the second, and Goku, with help from Whis, saved the day.
Goku saved the day because he knew Freeza was going to blow up the planet. Ever heard of the phrase 'hindsight is 20/20'? Yeah, Goku had an even better version of that. Goku also lost the first fight, but you don't see anyone calling him out on that; in fact in this thread there's more talk of Vegeta than there is of Goku, which says something about the movie... Also, don't use the term 'saved the day' like its something big, he knew what was going to happen, and anyone given that chance would have been able to do that; only reason it was him is because he's the main character, and the fact that Vegeta gets as much fan base and talk as the protagonist says a good deal about him, when the show isn't about him as a character.
I'm not glorifying Goku (check out some of my posts on Mr. Hero, I've never pulled punches concerning him.)
His popularity doesn't really matter, except in that it causes so many of his fans to overlook his flaws.
Let's get one thing clear. I LIKE post Buu Arc Vegeta. His showings in the JSAT and BoG were, to me, better than anything he had done before, and I imagine I'll probably like how he's portrayed in this movie, from what I've read. Liking a character is a far cry from declaring that he can do no wrong, is the shining star of the franchise, and the father of my children.
dbzfan7 wrote:Problem is some won't admit Vegeta did too.
Didn't the movie end with Goku killing Freeza after he was beaten down by Vegeta ? how is that a loss ?
After Vegeta fought a weakened Freeza since he was too chicken shit to fight Freeza at his best, and Goku had to save Vegeta because time would have played out the same if Goku didn't kill Freeza. That would be Vegeta fucking up again, and the earth blowing up again. You telling me Goku going back in time means Freeza wouldn't have killed Vegeta again if Goku stood back and watched.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
