Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Chuquita wrote:Re: 2nd Movie in a Trilogy Syndrome
This could very well be the case.
I'd like to have had a cliffhanger ending, but if this is leading up to something genuinely more complex in a 3rd movie, the perspective on it looks better.
Maybe this movie was more of a set up. Seems like Goku and Vegeta are training in the whole movie. I wouldn't be shock if Whis was training them to kill Whis.
He's training them to kill himself?
It all makes sense now. Whis is...
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Mayuri Kurotsuchi wrote:"In this world, nothing perfect exists. It may be a cliche after all but it's the way things are. That's precisely why ordinary men pursue the concept of perfection, it's infatuation. But ultimately I have to ask myself "What is the true meaning of being perfect?" and the answer I came up with was nothing. Not one thing. The truth of the matter is I despise perfection! If something is truly perfect, that's IT! The bottom line becomes there is no room for imagination! No space for intelligence or ability or improvement! Do you understand? To men of science like us, perfection is a dead end, a condition of hopelessness. Always strive to be better than anything that came before you but not perfect! Scientist's agonize over the attempt to achieve perfection! That's the kind of creatures we are! We take joy in trying to exceed our grasp, in trying to reach for something that in the end, we have to admit may in fact be unreachable!"
Ew, that would just make Goku look even more weak than he already is. I would rather have him go around sneezing galaxies than getting his hand cut off.
Sneezing galaxies? Please no Superman-esque "random bodily functions are suddenly superpowered to absurd levels, too!" nonsense.
How the hell does getting your hand cut off make you look weak? I mean, as long as the one doing the hand-cutting is actually on a similar level to Goku (or beyond him) in power, that doesn't seem like a thing that would "make Goku look weak" to me at all. Yeah, if they pulled a GT and had random shards of glass cut his hand off I'd understand the "making him look weak" thought, but if he gets his hand cut off by some sort of ki sword used by one of the other universes' Gods of Destruction or something like that I don't see a problem there. It's implied that some of them are possibly even stronger than freakin' Beerus, after all, and Goku's not even on his level.
Yamcha "looking weak" when Gero impaled him with his hand wasn't because *gasp* he actually got his body damaged, nobody but weak people sustain actual injuries!... it was because Gero was much more powerful than Yamcha, so Yamcha seemed weak in comparison (...even though he'd be easily strong enough to blow up the moon or a planet at that point in the series, so he's not really "weak"... other characters are just that much stronger.) Same goes with Nappa punching off Tenshinhan's arm or Piccolo losing an arm to Raditz. Losing a limb doesn't make the limb-loser seem weaker, it makes whoever was able to do that to them seem stronger.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:So, I have this one question for those who have seen the movie (Kei or Julian, I guess)... Does the base God state of Goku & Vegeta (aka using Super Saiyan God's power in base) work like a transformation, like it happened with Gohan's Ultimate state in M13 & BoG? Do we at least see them powering-up at all before their fights? I'm asking because it works as a transformation in Dragon Ball Heroes for Goku, and if it really does, it would easily fix the inconsistency that Super Saiyan God causes with Oob in the manga....
No it wouldn't. Goku said he wanted to fight Uub at 100% in the manga, and still considered that a worthy fight. He also stated that fights aren't fun unless the true powers of the fighters are at least somewhat close.
Goku was talking about stamina when he talked about 100%, and he wanted a rematch with the reincarnation of Majin Boo to see if he can beat him after his training. So, fighting him with a form beyond Super Saiyan 3, which also wasn't obtained through his training, wouldn't be what he had in his mind. The whole point of the fight with Oob was that he wanted to prove to himself that he can become strong enough to beat Boo on his own, not just to have a fun fight.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
shinmaru wrote:Never heard someone complain when Goku got hurt by a punch in the face by Krillin. Even if it was Movie and not in the Manga, there are more examples like this in DB. People now days watch new DBZ with magnifying glasses.
18 is stronger then Krillin, but I still think Krillin is more a tactical fighter.
These are just some gag moments. They throw them into the series to make people laugh. That Sorbet's blast go through Goku's chest isn't a gag moment. This leads many thing happen after. And Goku is taken down by Sorbet. And you still compare those things?
Goku in his early days
Spoiler:
Goku's head wasn't splitted into two pieces
Krillin in his early days
Spoiler:
Goku againsts Nam
Spoiler:
Goku,again
Spoiler:
....
Now the question: is Goku now too weak? Or the plot sucks?
bleed0range wrote:
2.) Goku getting caught off-guard
I don't think this is a big deal either. It's not much different then when Majin Vegeta knocks Goku out. If Goku lets his guard down then it's quite possible for him to be taken out. I know this has been debated for several pages, but I don't see why. It's pretty simple and it's not really all that hard to accept. Goku has gotten so cocky, he assumed Freeza "Wouldn't want to fight" anymore once he saw the blue ssj god form.
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Majin Vegeta is on same level with Goku SSJ2. Both were injuried. Then Vegeta hit on the Goku's neck(one of weakest part in the body). When fighting,hit on the opponent's weakest part is the best way to win. Like kick in the nuts...
Unless Sorbet is as strong as Goku or slightly weaker.
Well, about the sorbet thing, it's possible that he could potentially create a technique powerful enough to pierce an oponnent many times stronger than himself. after all Piccolo did that just at the beginning of dbz.
There's room for only one snake, and one big boss.
bleed0range wrote:
2.) Goku getting caught off-guard
I don't think this is a big deal either. It's not much different then when Majin Vegeta knocks Goku out. If Goku lets his guard down then it's quite possible for him to be taken out. I know this has been debated for several pages, but I don't see why. It's pretty simple and it's not really all that hard to accept. Goku has gotten so cocky, he assumed Freeza "Wouldn't want to fight" anymore once he saw the blue ssj god form.
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Majin Vegeta is on same level with Goku SSJ2. Both were injuried. Then Vegeta hit on the Goku's neck(one of weakest part in the body). When fighting,hit on the opponent's weakest part is the best way to win. Like kick in the nuts...
Unless Sorbet is as strong as Goku or slightly weaker.
Doesn't matter. Goku never gets knocked unconscious. It would never happen. Unless he let his guard down. But as many have already proven, it's a pretty common thing that it doesn't matter how strong you are... if you let your guard down you can be hurt like a normal person (well, with-in reason given how strong they all are). Like the Vegeta/Krillin example from the Freeza arc.
I'd argue the stuff about Sorbet, durability, or whatever, but I don't think we're supposed to do that here.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Basaku wrote:Summary presents the movie way better than the little snippets we've had before. However, I can see where some negative reactions came from - mainly the concern about non-existant plot.
If the Fight summary is accurate then it sounds like just a mash up of Goku's Namek fight, + Goku vs Beerus + Goku vs Cooler & some time travel. What? Rewinding time to correct a screw up? Really? In canon? Seriously? If anything they should have just taken the fight somewhere else if Freeza blew up the Earth and then wish it back later...
And about the movie lacking plot. It sounds like what I feared, just Freeza coming back for hype and showing off a new form which proves itself to be even more useless than his 100% form, correct? No depth at all to it either. I might skip this film.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.
Basaku wrote:Summary presents the movie way better than the little snippets we've had before. However, I can see where some negative reactions came from - mainly the concern about non-existant plot.
If the Fight summary is accurate then it sounds like just a mash up of Goku's Namek fight, + Goku vs Beerus + Goku vs Cooler & some time travel. What? Rewinding time to correct a screw up? Really? In canon? Seriously? If anything they should have just taken the fight somewhere else if Freeza blew up the Earth and then wish it back later...
And about the movie lacking plot. It sounds like what I feared, just Freeza coming back for hype and showing off a new form which proves itself to be even more useless than his 100% form, correct? No depth at all to it either. I might skip this film.
Why in the world are we still debating about "canon"? On Kanzenshuu of all places?
Freeza's new form hardly sounds "worthless". If Freeza had attacked Earth at the time of BoG then everyone would have been killed since they didn't know about SSJG, and even if they did and Freeza gave Goku time to achieve it he still might have won since Goku needed a stronger level of SSJG to clearly beat Freeza here and both SSJG Goku in BoG and Golden Freeza have a time limit weakness. It was also said that if Freeza had trained more with his new form he could have overcome the stamina issue, so if he had done that then Goku and Vegeta might have needed to work together or even fuse to beat him.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:So, I have this one question for those who have seen the movie (Kei or Julian, I guess)... Does the base God state of Goku & Vegeta (aka using Super Saiyan God's power in base) work like a transformation, like it happened with Gohan's Ultimate state in M13 & BoG? Do we at least see them powering-up at all before their fights? I'm asking because it works as a transformation in Dragon Ball Heroes for Goku, and if it really does, it would easily fix the inconsistency that Super Saiyan God causes with Oob in the manga....
No it wouldn't. Goku said he wanted to fight Uub at 100% in the manga, and still considered that a worthy fight. He also stated that fights aren't fun unless the true powers of the fighters are at least somewhat close.
Goku was talking about stamina when he talked about 100%, and he wanted a rematch with the reincarnation of Majin Boo to see if he can beat him after his training. So, fighting him with a form beyond Super Saiyan 3, which also wasn't obtained through his training, wouldn't be what he had in his mind. The whole point of the fight with Oob was that he wanted to prove to himself that he can become strong enough to beat Boo on his own, not just to have a fun fight.
That doesn't make any sense. He wants to use 100% stamina (stamina is used as a synonym for power several times btw), yet he decides to use 1% of his power? You're also ignoring his agreement with Cell's statement about fights not being enjoyable unless both fighters' true powers are close. Also, him stating that Uub could win the tournament, that the supposed Godgeta and Godku were entering.
Either FNF just didn't happen in the manga's continuity (which the plethora of continuity errors would indicate), or he somehow lost the god power-up, like Gohan somehow lost his Ultimate power-up (even though he has it at the EOZ).
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Honestly I don't think Goku ever expected Uub to be able to actually beat him, he just wanted to test the kid's power and train him. He couldn't even fly in the tournament, remember?
RandomGuy96 wrote:
Either FNF just didn't happen in the manga's continuity.
Gohan lost his Ultimate power-up (even though he has it at the EOZ).
Toriyaam said FNF&BOG are written as a continuation to the manga so they happened.
We didn't see him fight so how do you know he still has it ?
Too bad Toriyama- I'm sorry, "Toriyaam"- never said that.
Not that I disagree Random, but do we know if Gohan still has his power-up in EOZ? We don't see much of him.
He still has the Ultimate eyes.
Polyphase Avatron wrote:Honestly I don't think Goku ever expected Uub to be able to actually beat him, he just wanted to test the kid's power and train him. He couldn't even fly in the tournament, remember?
Except he explicitly said that Uub could beat him. Which is why he was shocked when Uub couldn't fly. Don't know why you left that part out.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Polyphase Avatron wrote:Honestly I don't think Goku ever expected Uub to be able to actually beat him, he just wanted to test the kid's power and train him. He couldn't even fly in the tournament, remember?
The story for Revival of “F”,is being crafted by original manga author Akira Toriyama, who stated he is writing it, “…as though it were a continuation of the manga when it was in serialization,”
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
The story for Revival of “F”,is being crafted by original manga author Akira Toriyama, who stated he is writing it, “…as though it were a continuation of the manga when it was in serialization,”
There's a difference between being written as a continuation, and being written as if it was a continuation. I can't believe I even need to explain that.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
