What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

[swiftninja]

Just one word: Saibamen.

[Dyno]

- C17 & C18's "real" names. (Names dont sound like human names... Lapis? Who names their son that?)

I bet this is sarcasm...

- SSJGod backstory. (Back to prehistoric planet Vegeta the center of the universe...)

And yet, you couldn't tell much of Saiyans.

- "Golden" Freeza's name, attainment and very uninspired appearance.

Must agree. At least Freeza knows how lame is the name he gives to himself. Not to mention his design, of course.

- Trunks X Mai deadend Shipping.

Not only in Dragon Ball, the whole "shipping" thing is ridiculous as hell.

- Goku gets ambushed & killed by New Freeza Soldier. (Freeza didnt even kill him, someone infinitely weaker than Goku did?)

You mean Sorbet? Yes, he was killed by Freeza.

- Goku just Win-blocking Vegeta in the end; just because the Earth blew up.

Sad for Vegeta's fans, bet my ass all of them were expecting the "Vegeta movie" even after Toriyama himself said he wanted Vegeta to star... Yeah, he kinda star but turns out to be another Kakarot movie.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Won't speak to which one is funnier, but I definitely wouldn't say either of the first two Broly movies had more comedic elements than BoG. Maybe together. But, then again, they're both significantly shorter. I will say that, at their most serious/intense moments, they were moreso than BoG.

I find the first Broly movie being better writen than BoG in terms of structure, it balanced out humour with action - where as BoG just dragged out the humour and cut in between fighting to talking to fighting. Something the anime itself was notorious for.

What I like better in the Broly movie was that the flowing of the film was still very consistent.
-The Build up was focused on speficically, it wasn't just shoe-horned in or cut-aways and not ignored for something else.
-The Humour of the film was based on the actual situations the characters were immediately in, the jokes were made as they were telling the story, they were just random instances derailing the plot; as BoG did way too much. It just added whatever was on screen into a joke that was a hit-or miss.
- The backstory of the villain was told AS the characters were fighting, it also set it up on Vegeta's fear which was already established before hand and not a plot-device.
- The action was up to par of the iconic long beatdowns DBZ was known for and despite the bad ending, the fight itself wasn't just boasting and staredown.
-The fight itself wasn't completely centered around Goku's actions even though he was the main target. Where as Bog, had all the other characters just thrown away, and Beerus didnt care at all that every other Saiyan was stronger than Goku at that point, he just wanted Goku just because he beat Freeza on Namek.

Modern DBZ seems to just tease us going back and forth with who seems important but really its just all about Goku being the saviour like GT had it. Not to mention the villains are just characters who are strong = just because they are and not because they're supported by any background. I mean how Toriyama handled Freeza's revival was just horrible and no effort was put into expanding anything that just wasnt "Well hes Freeza..." god-sue logic..

I bet this is sarcasm...

No.

And yet, you couldn't tell much of Saiyans.

They just seem to have power ups from every aspect of just being a Saiyan. Should I expect a SSJDevil? SSJAngel? SSJKnight? with all different backstories that just happen to all be true and from planet Vegeta who had nothing at all to support the Saiyans even being remotely cultured.

Must agree. At least Freeza knows how lame is the name he gives to himself. Not to mention his design, of course.

"Golden" Freeza literally sounds like a fan term. It really didnt need its own name... especially one that lame.

Not only in Dragon Ball, the whole "shipping" thing is ridiculous as hell.

Fans are entitled to see the character relationships however they want. I mean the actual focus on pairing of Mai and Trunks for no reason to make Goten (who already believes anything he says) buy his pimphood. It was a useless subplot.

You mean Sorbet? Yes, he was killed by Freeza.

but it takes Sorbet to give Freeza the opportunity. Weakening him.

Sad for Vegeta's fans, bet my ass all of them were expecting the "Vegeta movie" even after Toriyama himself said he wanted Vegeta to star... Yeah, he kinda star but turns out to be another Kakarot movie.

What he did was mean. No way to justify it. A slap in the face.

Its not as if Goku hadn't had enough protagonist shield boosts. But I guess Goku's perfect record can't be soiled. He just always has to be relevant in all the villain's deaths.

[Low Tone G]

Now I've got my lamest thing: Blue Super Saiyan. I've never thought that I will say something like that about a DB stuff but I really hate it. Seriously, not to mention that is really ugly, but also very pointless and contradicts some B.o.G. facts. We already saw Goku going Super Saiyan against Beerus having God power fully absorbed(which is truly confirmed by Toriyama himself in an interview as Goku doesn't even need to transform intro Saiyan God anymore), yet his hair remained golden. We can not even argue that Goku wasn't going all out against Beerus in those moments, so this colour changing is really useless and amateur move from Toriyama, and it served marketing purposes.

What marketing purposes? Blue Super Saiyan was not teased whatsoever by TOEI or Toriyama anywhere. Also, how can you know if it is "ugly" when not a single offical image of it is even released yet? Also, when Goku went SS in BoG he hadn't fully absorbed Godhood (that was he turned SSG for the 2nd time and asborbed Beerus' attack) Beerus simply stated that Goku did not notice he had transformed back into a regular SS and we can assume Goku was just fighting off the adrenaline of SSG.

But we already have some figuarts of Goku and Vegeta in this form.. You're right I have seen an image of it, but I personally I feel disgusted by any shades of Blue especially when we are talking about hair. And Kei17 said that it looks almost the same like this fan image of Saiyan God Vegeta:

[Mystic Tien]

Toriyama co-created the character (he had already been mentioned in the manga by Raditz), he just didn't name him or explored it until Minus. Toei created the TV special and made its own interpretation of the character in it.

Bardock wasn't mentioned in the manga by Raditz, just a father of Goku, who looked like him, no names were given. His design was created by Toei, not Toriyama, I doubt Toriyama even planned to bring him up in his story.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Now I've got my lamest thing: Blue Super Saiyan. I've never thought that I will say something like that about a DB stuff but I really hate it. Seriously, not to mention that is really ugly, but also very pointless and contradicts some B.o.G. facts. We already saw Goku going Super Saiyan against Beerus having God power fully absorbed(which is truly confirmed by Toriyama himself in an interview as Goku doesn't even need to transform intro Saiyan God anymore), yet his hair remained golden. We can not even argue that Goku wasn't going all out against Beerus in those moments, so this colour changing is really useless and amateur move from Toriyama, and it served marketing purposes.

What marketing purposes? Blue Super Saiyan was not teased whatsoever by TOEI or Toriyama anywhere. Also, how can you know if it is "ugly" when not a single offical image of it is even released yet? Also, when Goku went SS in BoG he hadn't fully absorbed Godhood (that was he turned SSG for the 2nd time and asborbed Beerus' attack) Beerus simply stated that Goku did not notice he had transformed back into a regular SS and we can assume Goku was just fighting off the adrenaline of SSG.

But we already have some figuarts of Goku and Vegeta in this form.. You're right I have seen an image of it, but I personally I feel disgusted by any shades of Blue especially when we are talking about hair. And Kei17 said that it looks almost the same like this fan image of Saiyan God Vegeta:

image

But they were just leaks, not even been officially announced yet, there is still a bit to go until the nationwide release in Japan so TOEI may market this form we shall have to see but so far it does not look like the Blue SS is a marketing tool at all. You could argue that for Golden Freeza. Well if it does look like that then I am more than happy, that is close to my favourite shade of Blue. But it would not surprise me if Toriyama came up with this to counter Freeza becoming Gold, feels like something he would do lol

[Luso Saiyan]

Bardock wasn't mentioned in the manga by Raditz, just a father of Goku,

The father of Goku, which is what he is.

no names were given.

That's what I said.

His design was created by Toei, not Toriyama

His final design was created by Toriyama, not Toei.

[fadeddreams5]

Except they aren't. The manga is long since complete.

No, he is just canon to BoG, no more than this.

So now nothing is canon to the manga even though Toriyama said these movies follow the manga? O.o

Besides Toriyama's depiction of "Vegeta's brother" may largely differ from Toei's (Naho Ooishi's) one.

Yeah, that's why I wrote he's canon, and not the OVA itself. =P

[BeholdeR]

The fans .

[Mystic Tien]

Bardock wasn't mentioned in the manga by Raditz, just a father of Goku,

The father of Goku, which is what he is.

no names were given.

That's what I said.

His design was created by Toei, not Toriyama

His final design was created by Toriyama, not Toei.

He wasn't father of Goku at that point, he simply didn't exist then.

I know, and this is my point.

It doesn't matter, Toriyama revised already existed design of Bardock, created by Toei, so Bardock was created by Toei. Toriyama didn't create him.

So now nothing is canon to the manga even though Toriyama said these movies follow the manga? O.o

He didn't say it, and until he does, in my book it is not canon to manga and is only a part of anime.

[fadeddreams5]

So now nothing is canon to the manga even though Toriyama said these movies follow the manga? O.o

He didn't say it, and until he does, in my book it is not canon to manga and is only a part of anime.

I don't think anyone ever says anything is canon. But I just assume if the original creator is making the scripts, and he says it follows the [continuity of the] manga, then it's canon to it.

[Rocketman]

I don't think anyone ever says anything is canon. But I just assume if the original creator is making the scripts, and he says it follows the [continuity of the] manga, then it's canon to it. :think:

The new movies are no more canon to the manga than the Book of Mormon is canon to the Bible.

[fadeddreams5]

I don't think anyone ever says anything is canon. But I just assume if the original creator is making the scripts, and he says it follows the [continuity of the] manga, then it's canon to it.

The new movies are no more canon to the manga than the Book of Mormon is canon to the Bible.

Would you accept them as canon if they weren't bad?

[Rocketman]

Would you accept them as canon if they weren't bad?

No, though that does make it easier.

[Mystic Tien]

So now nothing is canon to the manga even though Toriyama said these movies follow the manga? O.o

He didn't say it, and until he does, in my book it is not canon to manga and is only a part of anime.

I don't think anyone ever says anything is canon. But I just assume if the original creator is making the scripts, and he says it follows the [continuity of the] manga, then it's canon to it.

That means, that it'll never be canon then. I may give you a great example of One Piece: Strong World. It is a movie, the script of which was written by Eichiiro Oda (mangaka of One Piece), yet it is not canon to One Piece manga. Here is the same story. Besides he didn't say that BoG of FnF follows continuity of the manga, which means that it doesn't follow. If it was intended to follow manga, it wouldn't have been called "Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods" to begin with. It also features anime-only characters, and their anime depiction, so I just don't see it as being a part of manga-continuity. Anime-continuity? Sure.

I don't think anyone ever says anything is canon. But I just assume if the original creator is making the scripts, and he says it follows the [continuity of the] manga, then it's canon to it.

The new movies are no more canon to the manga than the Book of Mormon is canon to the Bible.

Would you accept them as canon if they weren't bad?

I like BoG, and I don't like DBM much. Yet in my book BoG is not canon to manga, while DBM is.

[Luso Saiyan]

He wasn't father of Goku at that point, he simply didn't exist then.

The father of Goku is a single character. It hadn't been featured nor named yet, but it's something that existed precisely because it was mentioned.

I know, and this is my point.

What point? It wasn't named yet, so what? Goku only has one father and the manga's description served as a basis for the design.

It doesn't matter,

Yes, it does matter. The original concept by Toei was based on how the character was described in the manga. That same original concept from Toei was revised by Toriyama. As such, the character's final design (which is the only relevant one) provided by Toriyama is the result of a co-creation. That's a fact, there's no room for argument.

[Zephyr]

The father of Goku is a single character. It hadn't been featured nor named yet, but it's something that existed precisely because it was mentioned.

It's something that exists because Goku exists. When Bulma first meets Goku, it goes without saying that she logically must have biological parents. Which is to say that their existence is logically implied by her's.

So, sure, Toriyama "created" Bardock in that respect. He also created Dr. Gero's great, great, great grandmother as well following the same reasoning though.

[Mystic Tien]

He wasn't father of Goku at that point, he simply didn't exist then.

The father of Goku is a single character. It hadn't been featured nor named yet, but it's something that existed precisely because it was mentioned.

I know, and this is my point.

What point? It wasn't named yet, so what? Goku only has one father and the manga's description served as a basis for the design.

It doesn't matter,

Yes, it does matter. The original concept by Toei was based on how the character was described in the manga. That same original concept from Toei was revised by Toriyama. As such, the character's final design (which is the only relevant one) provided by Toriyama is the result of a co-creation. That's a fact, there's no room for argument.

The father of Goku is not a single character. There are at least two different depictions from him. One from Dragon Ball Minus, and one from Bardock: Father of Goku. These two Bardocks are two different characters. Bardock simply wasn't created by Toriyama or Toei when some father of Goku was mentioned in manga.

So until he was given a name, he didn't exist. It is the same as in BoG, until the name of "brother of Vegeta" would be revealed along with him in person, he wouldn't be the same as the Tarble from OVA Yo Son Goku and His Friends.

It doesn't matter. Toei created the original design, that means that the character named Bardock was created by Toei, not Toriyama. As for what description they followed, it doesn't matter, because character named Bardock didn't exist in Dragon Ball manga prior Toei creating him, and he was never shown there until after Bardock: Father of Goku was created. Final design? Yes, but I am not speaking about the final design. I am speaking about the original design and the actual character who was created by Toei. Toriyama's Bardock is in Dragon Ball Minus and in his manga, and only there. In DBZ and Bardock: Father of Goku there is Toei's Bardock, regardless from Toriyama's changes. As the original and final version of Bardock's design was drawn and animated by Toei.

[Luso Saiyan]

The father of Goku is a single character. It hadn't been featured nor named yet, but it's something that existed precisely because it was mentioned.

It's something that exists because Goku exists.

Not necessarily. Goku is an alien, we didn't know anything about him at that point. The character of his father was mentioned, details about his appearance were revealed. It's not a case of existence by omission, like the example you provided.

More than that, Toriyama provided the final design of the character. It was a co-creation, arguing against that fact is pointless.

The father of Goku is not a single character. There are at least two different depictions from him.

The character is one and the same, it was just interpreted differently.

So until he was given a name, he didn't exist.

A character doesn't need to be named or depicted in order to exist.

It is the same as in BoG, until the name of "brother of Vegeta" would be revealed along with him in person, he wouldn't be the same as the Tarble from OVA Yo Son Goku and His Friends.

Since it was mentioned, it means the character that is Vegeta's brother does exist.

It doesn't matter.

Yes, it does. Denial is irrelevant against facts.

Toei created the original design, that means that the character named Bardock was created by Toei, not Toriyama.

Toei's original concept (based on Toriyama's vague description from the manga) was not used. The final design was provided by Toriyama. Since Toriyama's defined the final look of the character (having previously established a few details in the manga), he was as much a creator as Toei. Hence co-creation. How the character was used and interpreted after that is a completely different matter. The point is, the character's creation was provided by both Toei (through Nakatsuru, who named the character and provided a few details that remain in the final design) and Toriyama (who provided the initial details in the manga and the character's final design).

[Dyno]

There are some words of Toriyama saying he was also involved with Bardock's design. Which is true by all that matters.

Bardock from Chapter 307 is from/based/came from/appeared on the TV Special. As well as his scene passing through all the soldiers and fighting Freeza from that animation is still a follow-up to Dragon Ball Minus.