Official DBZ 2015 Movie Power Discussion: "Resurrection F"

[Kamiccolo9]

This Shisami isn't actually on-par with Dodoria or Zarbon in power, right? Right?!

Nothing definitively says that he is. Kei said that the line people are quoting says that it can also be used to denote status, loyalty, competence, etc. People just jumped on Power Levels because everything has to be about power levels.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That makes way more sense to me. I had a feeling the power part was a bit forced in the comparison.

[buutenks]

While i am not a big gohan fan,though i do find ssj2 gohan and ultimate gohan awesome,i find it sad that gohan has been depowered.Also,in the manga when the gohan ritual is finished,the old kai says to gohan to try and go super saiyan and when he does he just powers up in his base form,leaving goku and rest shocked of his power.So from that i got that gohan cannot turn ssj,since when he tried he just powered up in his base form.So i am very disappointed that gohan has been reduced to such low showings.

As for the red horned guy being that strong,well,you can just chalk it up to inconsistent showing and leave it at that.

Now for the z fighters If you consider at what level of power they r at this point,none of freeza's men should be even able to scratch most of the them(except for roshi).So I'm sure while it is a cool fight,logically they shouldnt be more of a threat than the farmer was to raditz.

Now about goku being taken down by sorbet's ring,well i understand goku lowered his guard.So I'm guessing once freeza was on the ground defeated he lowered his power most likely to that of a human level or very close or to which he finds it more comfortable.I guess this happened allot to goku,piccolo jr beam in the 23rd budokai through his left or was it right shoulder?Ginyu body change,vegeta koing him.Hope he learns this time.

And vegeta dying in the planet explosion kinda disappointed me somewhat,but it depends if he was in his powered up state or in his base state,since golden freeza survived a kameha from goku,so it makes no sense that blue ssj vegeta would be killed by a much weaker blast.

And my strongest in the movie list from what I've read in the summary:
Whis>Beerus>Goku>Vegeta>Freeza>Everybody else.

Now why i chose goku and vegeta superior to freeza,goku obviously beat him so ye its obvious but for vegeta well,while from the summary it did say he refused but i think that due to freeza's stamina issue he still would win,most likely harder than goku but would still win eventually.

Ofc i mean power wise,without outside help or exploding the planet.

[dbzfan7]

That makes way more sense to me. I had a feeling the power part was a bit forced in the comparison.

I only think of power cause if Shisame is as strong as Piccolo, then why the fuck do they need Freeza again? He'd clear out a world by himself. The problem with the WTO is that their soldiers are weak. I'd say Shisame is that weak as since Tagoma was dispatched as easily as how Zarbon or Dodoria would have been. Also if Shisame was as strong as Piccolo, he'd be stronger than Freeza is upon revival.

[buutenks]

That makes way more sense to me. I had a feeling the power part was a bit forced in the comparison.

I only think of power cause if Shisame is as strong as Piccolo, then why the fuck do they need Freeza again? He'd clear out a world by himself. The problem with the WTO is that their soldiers are weak. I'd say Shisame is that weak as since Tagoma was dispatched as easily as how Zarbon or Dodoria would have been. Also if Shisame was as strong as Piccolo, he'd be stronger than Freeza is upon revival.

i bet they said damn we need a guy to do some damage,so lets just make this guy able to fight piccolo without getting his butt kicked in one second without any reason whatsoever.

Kinda like how in comics one char beats another one who is way out of that char's league,but ye poor writing.

[TheGmGoken]

Maybe he was Freeza's training buddy? We'll never know. That or he took Picclo by surprise if they're going easy on the henchmen. But why would Gohan need SSJ to one shot him?

Maybe he saw Freeza train and decided to train himself?

[buutenks]

Well,from the summary,it never says why he is that strong.

But then again,maybe it was just one punch and then gohan comes and one shots him?Cos if its a prolonged one on one fight i see no reason why piccolo wouldnt just powerup and ko him in one hit...

Also why did they not kill them again?

[dbzfan7]

Maybe he was Freeza's training buddy? We'll never know. That or he took Picclo by surprise if they're going easy on the henchmen. But why would Gohan need SSJ to one shot him?

Maybe he saw Freeza train and decided to train himself?

That's all I got on the subject matter. Other than that it's just stupid.

[Zephyr]

We shouldn't have to come up with excuses for a story or consistency. That's a sign of the story failing on it's own to be consistent.

I read Freeza saying his speculative statement, saw that he was clearly wrong, and then moved on. No excuse necessary.

Assuming everything a character says is a 100% accurate statement of fact is reading unnecessarily far into things, and that is the impetus for the creation of the excuse.

[dbzfan7]

We shouldn't have to come up with excuses for a story or consistency. That's a sign of the story failing on it's own to be consistent.

I read Freeza saying his speculative statement, saw that he was clearly wrong, and then moved on. No excuse necessary.

Assuming everything a character says is a 100% accurate statement of fact is reading unnecessarily far into things, and that is the impetus for the creation of the excuse.

You don't write in pointless dialogue if it's pointless. Him being wrong adds nothing to a story and makes the phrase pointless. Besides that's your thought that he's clearly wrong. Just like we're supposed to take his word for him getting so strong in 4 month's, it seems that number is just to symbolize a high power for Freeza to achieve. Problem is they probably forgot he reached that number long ago.

[buutenks]

Hmm i just think of it as poor writing.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

That makes way more sense to me. I had a feeling the power part was a bit forced in the comparison.

Would it really matter if they were directly talking about power? I mean, it's been almost 20 years since the Freeza Arc. I don't see anything wrong with them finding or training a handful of new soldiers at Zarbon and Dodoria level.

[RandomGuy96]

This Shisami isn't actually on-par with Dodoria or Zarbon in power, right? Right?!

Nothing definitively says that he is. Kei said that the line people are quoting says that it can also be used to denote status, loyalty, competence, etc. People just jumped on Power Levels because everything has to be about power levels.

That seems like wishful thinking at best. Sorbet would see it fit to mention that Giant Red Bull Man is thousands of times stronger than the guy he's being compared to, if that was really was the case. Plus, it was specified that Tagoma's power was on par with Zarbon or Dodoria's, so it's not at all unreasonable to assume that the comparison between him/Giant Red Bull Man and Zarbon/Dodoria was talking about power.

[jcogginsa]

This Shisami isn't actually on-par with Dodoria or Zarbon in power, right? Right?!

Nothing definitively says that he is. Kei said that the line people are quoting says that it can also be used to denote status, loyalty, competence, etc. People just jumped on Power Levels because everything has to be about power levels.

That seems like wishful thinking at best. Sorbet would see it fit to mention that Giant Red Bull Man is thousands of times stronger than the guy he's being compared to, if that was really was the case. Plus, it was specified that Tagoma's power was on par with Zarbon or Dodoria's, so it's not at all unreasonable to assume that the comparison between him/Giant Red Bull Man and Zarbon/Dodoria was talking about power.

Keep in mind that statement was made before the 4 months of trainin

[Zephyr]

You don't write in pointless dialogue if it's pointless. Him being wrong adds nothing to a story and makes the phrase pointless. Besides that's your thought that he's clearly wrong. Just like we're supposed to take his word for him getting so strong in 4 month's, it seems that number is just to symbolize a high power for Freeza to achieve. Problem is they probably forgot he reached that number long ago.

It means that Freeza underestimated what the actual extent of his first form's power growth would be. There's also the possibility that the 1.37 million could be at his first form's resting state. Many, many possible interpretations of this, and yet the one that causes the most headaches is being defaulted to.

[dbzfan7]

You don't write in pointless dialogue if it's pointless. Him being wrong adds nothing to a story and makes the phrase pointless. Besides that's your thought that he's clearly wrong. Just like we're supposed to take his word for him getting so strong in 4 month's, it seems that number is just to symbolize a high power for Freeza to achieve. Problem is they probably forgot he reached that number long ago.

It means that Freeza underestimated what the actual extent of his first form's power growth would be. There's also the possibility that the 1.37 million could be at his first form's resting state. Many, many possible interpretations of this, and yet the one that causes the most headaches is being defaulted to.

We know he does that. We know as a character he tends to underestimate. So we get jack shit from his character from a statement like this as it adds nothing to him. It's just like the Beerus statement. Why bother with Beerus saying Goku can't beat Freeza without SSJ, if that wasn't the case.

[Analytical Delusion]

Wait, how much time has passed since BoG?

I'm trying to wrap my head around this Gohan thing. So BoG, I believe, took place 5 years after Buu was defeated. Gohan, while drunk, has no difficulty transforming into his "ultimate" state. Now, maybe a year later (well, between 0 and 3 years, since Beerus is still sleeping), it seems he's completely lost his physique, and isn't sure if he can go SSJ?

I think there are only three ways this makes sense:

1) Gohan was training a ton during the 5 years between Buu and BoG, but did not at all between BoG and FnF.
2) Gohan underestimated his abilities, and was knocked out by Freeza before he had the chance to power into the "ultimate" state.
3) Gohan didn't need his "ultimate" state to take down this Shisami fellow, so just turned SSJ. He's knocked out before he had the chance to power up.

Problem with (3), which is the most logical option to me, is that when asked by Kuririn or Kamesennin, when they were worried about Freeza, Gohan said he wasn't sure if he could become a SSJ.

As for Piccolo, it's tough. The Zarbon comparison, even if it's more about status than about power, is a bit out there. Piccolo, before taking on his new, mostly non-fighting role, went into the RoSaT again, after already being at the same level as #17. He was still having difficulty against the Cell Jr. he was matched against, but wasn't one-shotted or anything. So it's not as if he was an ant when compared to Vegeta/Trunks at the Cell Games.

So we have Abo/Cado and their transformed state (not sure if the JSAT special is canon at this point for me). These guys are running Freeza's empire as of a few years prior to FnF. Shisami, in order to match up against Piccolo, has to be dozens of times stronger.

Attempting to rationalize this:

1) Piccolo trained over the 7 years between Cell and Buu, so he was ready for the 25th TB. He ceased training after Buu, and got much weaker over time (maybe super-aging from absorbing God?).
2) This Shisami guy has a special ability that made the fight very difficult. Something like dimension warping (Janemba), time stopping (Guldo), unlimited stamina/high durability (androids), teleporting (Goku)...even maybe the ability to give off a high-pitched sound (throwback to that weakness, though I forget how it worked out exactly).
3) The fight wasn't very involved, and Gohan stepped in pretty quickly. Meaning, Piccolo wasn't struggling.
4) Shisami was a guy who was recruited after Freeza came back. Possibly after the training (some mentioned that he might have trained with Freeza, though I don't know how I feel about this), since word of Freeza's power could have spread throughout space.

The last issue is the 1.37 million power level or whatever. I think it was mentioned that Freeza suggested that before his training, that he'd reach that level? In that case we can just say he underestimated himself, though if he does know Goku defeated Buu, unless he had no clue of Buu's power, it can't be enough.

Well in his first form, perhaps that's fine, even if he said it after arriving on Earth (as opposed to before the training), but it would have to mean the gains in his final form would not be linear. Three times Namek Freeza's power is, even in a minimalist's view, would still be well short of Cell. If the gains in each form are bloated and the power scaling is exponential, that makes some sense. If he said it about his final form (which by all accounts seems to be far above Buu's level), I think it'll be hard to explain away.

[dbgtFO]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this Gohan thing. So BoG, I believe, took place 5 years after Buu was defeated. Gohan, while drunk, has no difficulty transforming into his "ultimate" state. Now, maybe a year later (well, between 0 and 3 years, since Beerus is still sleeping), it seems he's completely lost his physique, and isn't sure if he can go SSJ?

Gohan was supposed to be a Super Saiyan in BoG too, they just changed it because fans started complaining and later made the excuse, that they were always going to correct and only originally had it as SS Gohan due to marketing.
Gohan not even being sure he can go Super Saiyan makes it sound like he's much weaker than he was in the Buu Arc, maybe even weaker than his 25th Budokai self.
It doesn't seem like we'll get more appearances of Ultimate Gohan in the near-future.

4) Shisami was a guy who was recruited after Freeza came back. Possibly after the training (some mentioned that he might have trained with Freeza, though I don't know how I feel about this), since word of Freeza's power could have spread throughout space.

I think Julian and Kei have confirmed Shisami was a part of Sorbet's army, before Freeza was brought back.
Also this wouldn't be the first time Piccolo was caught off-guard by a much weaker opponent. Dr. Gero almost managed to kill him after all.

The last issue is the 1.37 million power level or whatever. I think it was mentioned that Freeza suggested that before his training, that he'd reach that level? In that case we can just say he underestimated himself, though if he does know Goku defeated Buu, unless he had no clue of Buu's power, it can't be enough.

Yeah, it seems really weird.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That makes way more sense to me. I had a feeling the power part was a bit forced in the comparison.

Would it really matter if they were directly talking about power? I mean, it's been almost 20 years since the Freeza Arc. I don't see anything wrong with them finding or training a handful of new soldiers at Zarbon and Dodoria level.

I have no issue with that in particular.

I'm going off of the assumption that Shisami is Zarbon level while fighting Piccolo. If he trained with Freeza and acquired a level of power on-par with Piccolo, then that's fine.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

That makes way more sense to me. I had a feeling the power part was a bit forced in the comparison.

Would it really matter if they were directly talking about power? I mean, it's been almost 20 years since the Freeza Arc. I don't see anything wrong with them finding or training a handful of new soldiers at Zarbon and Dodoria level.

I have no issue with that in particular.

I'm going off of the assumption that Shisami is Zarbon level while fighting Piccolo. If he trained with Freeza and acquired a level of power on-par with Piccolo, then that's fine.

Ah, that's not the way the conversation made it sound. Apologies.

Anyway, seeing how the summary has Freeza noting that none of the heroes are trying to kill his grunts, you can always chalk it up to Piccolo suppressing himself to just above basic grunt level and briefly being caught off guard by a Zarbon/Dodoria level opponent. Though that makes Gohan going Super Saiyan to defeat him less logical. xD