How do all these new movies affect the end of the manga?

[Dayspring]

I think other then Pan being a bit older, I don't think they affect the manga.

Ah, I forgot that it gave Pan's age. But yeah, whatever, it wouldn't be the first time Toriyama contradicted a minor note like that. Heck, he's even contradicted major issues in the past.

[Mystic Tien]

Besides he doesn't even claim that it is a continuation of manga.

But he does. He said it's just as if he continued serialized manga. And Toei says it's part of the official story. Can't really get any more clear than that. I understand you may not like it but chances that they will change their mind are slim. Especially as they are slowly but surely writing GT out of the picture. The decision has been made, Toei wanted new canon stories on the same level as the manga and Toriyama agreed.

And this is a point. No claims from Toriyama saying "This is a continuation of manga" were made.

Toei also says that BoG takes place between Z and GT.

No one writes out GT out of the picture, by your logic, they also write out DBZ out of the picture, because Frieza was shown in his simple final form in hell in DBZ, not mecha, and Hell in DBZ is completely different from FnF's one, they (and especially Toriyama) simply don't care.

There is no canon in DB. This is the first. So the closest to original and main story is manga, but not anime. This movie is advertised as Dragon Ball Z movie. This is the second. And it features anime-only characters and elements. This is the third. So in the end this is just another anime movie. "Official" means being created by guys who have rights to series (Toei), while what is not created by Toei, Toriyama or some guys working for Shuiesha is fan-made. There is no official story in DB franchise, and even if there was, Toei doesn't have any rights to decide it, because they don't own manga series, Toriyama does. And as I already said, in this very press release, which people quote, it was said that BoG takes place between Z and GT, I can't understand why people are ignoring it.

[Skar]

Uub is nothing but pure, raw potential. He's not just another normal human reincarnating in another normal human, he's Buu reincarnated in a mortal body. This is the first time something god-level has reincarnated. If mortals can achieve god-level under exceptionally rare circumstances, imagine what a mortal with the power of a god like Buu can achieve. Something as simple as Popo's training suggests he should be equal or superior to Kid Buu. From there, begin Whis' training methods. He's also young, so he has much more room for growth than Goku and Vegeta do. That's certainly something to be excited about.

I don't know if being Buu's reincarnation guarantees he'll surpass him by that much. The Kaioshin were technically prodigies of the Shinjin people and apparently born much stronger than Freeza. Could they also reach SSJ God tier in a few months of training? Freeza's power-up in Fnf was the worst in the series in my opinion. I couldn't imagine in a million years something that crazy would happen. I've seen it a lot in fanfics but I never imagined it would happen in an official story.

[Dayspring]

Uub is nothing but pure, raw potential. He's not just another normal human reincarnating in another normal human, he's Buu reincarnated in a mortal body. This is the first time something god-level has reincarnated. If mortals can achieve god-level under exceptionally rare circumstances, imagine what a mortal with the power of a god like Buu can achieve. Something as simple as Popo's training suggests he should be equal or superior to Kid Buu. From there, begin Whis' training methods. He's also young, so he has much more room for growth than Goku and Vegeta do. That's certainly something to be excited about.

I don't know if being Buu's reincarnation guarantees he'll surpass him by that much. The Kaioshin were technically prodigies of the Shinjin people and apparently born much stronger than Freeza. Could they also reach SSJ God tier in a few months of training? Freeza's power-up in Fnf was the worst in the series in my opinion. I couldn't imagine in a million years something that crazy would happen. I've seen it a lot in fanfics but I never imagined it would happen in an official story.

Could the Kaioshin reach SSJ God tier in a few months of training? Under the right circumstances, yes, of course.

As I've stated in other threads, Freeza has access to regeneration tanks and to planets with higher gravity. That means he can train more intensely than Piccolo and arguably more-so than Vegeta as well. Assuming he trains at the same intensity as Piccolo did - only under 10x gravity - it will take him much less than 3.6 months for his first form to surpass Super Saiyan strengths. His final form is 240x stronger than that. His golden form is an unknown amount of times stronger than that final form.

The only reason it's insane is because we haven't seen the Saiyans do it yet. That's a ridiculously stupid reason, though. Anything a Saiyan can do, Freeza should be able to do better if he tries seriously.

[rereboy]

Goten and Trunks in the Buu arc are, without any real training, without even being physically mature, stronger than Freeza was in Namek. They are absolute prodigies, and yet their rate of improvement due to training is not radically different from other fighters. Freeza improving by that much simply because he is a prodigy is just lame and makes him look really stupid since apparently he know he could improve that much with just a bit of training.

[coola]

They do, actually, when Goku explain to Vegeta Uub case, he says something like "When 10 years ago, our strongest foe died, i've wished him to reborn as completely new person, King Enma must heard that" Obviously Beerus/Whis and Freeza are now much stronger then Buu

[Lord Beerus]

They do, actually, when Goku explain to Vegeta Uub case, he says something like "When 10 years ago, our strongest foe died, i've wished him to reborn as completely new person, King Enma must heard that" Obviously Beerus/Whis and Freeza are now much stronger then Buu

Well, if it means anything, Kid Buu was and outright villain while Beerus was more of an antagonist.

[Mystic Tien]

They do, actually, when Goku explain to Vegeta Uub case, he says something like "When 10 years ago, our strongest foe died, i've wished him to reborn as completely new person, King Enma must heard that" Obviously Beerus/Whis and Freeza are now much stronger then Buu

Well, if it means anything, Kid Buu was and outright villain while Beerus was more of an antagonist.

But wasn't Frieza their strongest foe, after that movie?

[Lord Beerus]

They do, actually, when Goku explain to Vegeta Uub case, he says something like "When 10 years ago, our strongest foe died, i've wished him to reborn as completely new person, King Enma must heard that" Obviously Beerus/Whis and Freeza are now much stronger then Buu

Well, if it means anything, Kid Buu was and outright villain while Beerus was more of an antagonist.

But wasn't Freeza their strongest foe, after that movie?

He really wasn't. Golden Freeza ultimately proved no match for Blue Super Saiyan God Goku in the movie.

[coola]

That's true, but i think he was still stronger than Kid Buu

[Tanooki Kuribo]

Well, in the EoZ chapters, Bulma states that she hasn't seen Goku in 10 years, basically since the end of the Buu saga. She arrives with Vegeta saying, "You never visit us." Goku says, "What are you talking about? We saw each other 5 years ago. "And she replies with, "But you didn't even show up. You said you had to train."

So yes, unless Toriyama just removes these last 2 chapters it contradicts both movies.

What's "EoZ"? Is it "the end of Z"? You couldn't just write it out?

[Lord Beerus]

That's true, but i think he was still stronger than Kid Buu

Oh yeah. That's certainly true.

[FoolsGil]

This is why I don't like conversations like this. It's been 20 years since the manga ended. He had come up with nothing about Beerus and Golden Freeza 20 years ago, so how the heck are you going to debate these new movies with a manga that ended so far back?

Obviously the last chapter's dialogue would need to be changed because of Toriyama's newest interest in his series. No point in debating what's affected, or what's canon. When they do another anthology, or tankobon or whatever it's called, the dialogue will be changed to account for the new movies. Obviously.

[Basaku]

This is why I don't like conversations like this. It's been 20 years since the manga ended. He had come up with nothing about Beerus and Golden Freeza 20 years ago, so how the heck are you going to debate these new movies with a manga that ended so far back?

Obviously the last chapter's dialogue would need to be changed because of Toriyama's newest interest in his series. No point in debating what's affected, or what's canon. When they do another anthology, or tankobon or whatever it's called, the dialogue will be changed to account for the new movies. Obviously.

Or they will steer the ending of 3rd movie to fit into EOZ canon. "Goku, u need to go to universe #3 to fight someone powerful there, go and find a protector for Earth who will replace you when you're gone". There's tons of possible excuses and ass-pulls to make EOZ fit in new canon and then continue the new story

[Skar]

Could the Kaioshin reach SSJ God tier in a few months of training? Under the right circumstances, yes, of course.

I don't know because Toriyama said most of the cast was at full strength at the time of Battle of Gods. If everyone could continue getting stronger forever then there probably wouldn't have been a reason to say that. That kinda ruins the story if Kaioshin could've surpassed Buu at any time during those five million years since he was sealed.

As I've stated in other threads, Freeza has access to regeneration tanks and to planets with higher gravity. That means he can train more intensely than Piccolo and arguably more-so than Vegeta as well. Assuming he trains at the same intensity as Piccolo did - only under 10x gravity - it will take him much less than 3.6 months for his first form to surpass Super Saiyan strengths. His final form is 240x stronger than that. His golden form is an unknown amount of times stronger than that final form.

That's not really how it works. Just because Piccolo became that strong in a short time doesn't mean someone much stronger than him will have the same growth. Diminishing returns the stronger they became were consistent throughout the manga for every character. Humans became almost 10x stronger after training with Kami for a year. Of course we know their growth slowed down after that because if it continued to be 10x stronger every year then they would be stronger than 100% Freeza before the Android saga. Piccolo went from a little over one million against 2nd form Freeza to 50-100% Freeza depending how strong Gero was. That's at least a 60x increase in three years. We know he didn't get that much stronger every three years or he would've been several thousand times stronger by the Buu saga and probably stronger than SSJ2 Gohan. Even the Saiyans had diminishing returns because they were no longer getting hundreds of times stronger in a short time like they did in the Saiyan saga. Goku was a 6 and Beerus was a 10 but after at least a year of training with Whis, Goku was still weaker than Beerus. If Freeza had consistent huge growth without ever slowing down then he would be the only character who did that in the entire manga.

The other problem is that Freeza never trained in his life so he has no idea how to train effectively. Freeza first had to learn how to train and then outperformed all the Z fighters in a few short months. Vegeta was able to learn how to sense energy just by observing it while Freeza apparently never learned so I honestly doubt Freeza is smart enough to figure out a way to outdo the Saiyans when it comes to training.

[Mystic Tien]

That kinda ruins the story if Kaioshin could've surpassed Buu at any time during those five million years since he was sealed.

And why he couldn't? Beerus apparently did exactly this. Moreover he became much stronger than Buu, while there was not so much a difference in a power between Buu and Kaioshin, as it was between Buu (any form) and Beerus.

[Skar]

This is why I don't like conversations like this. It's been 20 years since the manga ended. He had come up with nothing about Beerus and Golden Freeza 20 years ago, so how the heck are you going to debate these new movies with a manga that ended so far back?

Obviously the last chapter's dialogue would need to be changed because of Toriyama's newest interest in his series. No point in debating what's affected, or what's canon. When they do another anthology, or tankobon or whatever it's called, the dialogue will be changed to account for the new movies. Obviously.

He's the author so he could do whatever he wants but would it be too much to ask for a little consistency with what was already presented in the manga? Some fans appreciate a consistent story. Not every minor detail just major plot points that don't need to be changed. Freeza thought of himself as the strongest in the manga. There was no point for him to mention Beerus and Buu considering he can't sense energy and has no idea how strong they were. He could've easily just said he wanted to train to surpass Goku without bringing up their names.

And why he couldn't? Beerus apparently did exactly this. Moreover he became much stronger than Buu, while there was not so much a difference in a power between Buu and Kaioshin, as it was between Buu (any form) and Beerus.

I don't know. South Kaioshin was the strongest among them and he was still weaker than Buu. If Kaioshin could surpass Buu I don't see why he wouldn't.

[Dayspring]

As I've stated in other threads, Freeza has access to regeneration tanks and to planets with higher gravity. That means he can train more intensely than Piccolo and arguably more-so than Vegeta as well. Assuming he trains at the same intensity as Piccolo did - only under 10x gravity - it will take him much less than 3.6 months for his first form to surpass Super Saiyan strengths. His final form is 240x stronger than that. His golden form is an unknown amount of times stronger than that final form.

That's not really how it works. Just because Piccolo became that strong in a short time doesn't mean someone much stronger than him will have the same growth. Diminishing returns the stronger they became were consistent throughout the manga for every character. Humans became almost 10x stronger after training with Kami for a year. Of course we know their growth slowed down after that because if it continued to be 10x stronger every year then they would be stronger than 100% Freeza before the Android saga. Piccolo went from a little over one million against 2nd form Freeza to 50-100% Freeza depending how strong Gero was. That's at least a 60x increase in three years. We know he didn't get that much stronger every three years or he would've been several thousand times stronger by the Buu saga and probably stronger than SSJ2 Gohan. Even the Saiyans had diminishing returns because they were no longer getting hundreds of times stronger in a short time like they did in the Saiyan saga. Goku was a 6 and Beerus was a 10 but after at least a year of training with Whis, Goku was still weaker than Beerus. If Freeza had consistent huge growth without ever slowing down then he would be the only character who did that in the entire manga.

The other problem is that Freeza never trained in his life so he has no idea how to train effectively. Freeza first had to learn how to train and then outperformed all the Z fighters in a few short months. Vegeta was able to learn how to sense energy just by observing it while Freeza apparently never learned so I honestly doubt Freeza is smart enough to figure out a way to outdo the Saiyans when it comes to training.

You're assuming n00b gains only occur in the very weak and very talented, though. However, the expression is derived from being a newbie. The fact that he's never trained before and already accumulated such a high Battle Power suggests his gains will be unlike anything we've ever seen. Someone else used Goten and Trunks as counter-examples, but they're A) not members of Freeza's race and B) flat-out admit to having consistently sparred with each other since before they could remember. There's a reason Freeza repeatedly gets used as an example of the pinnacle of strength in the manga, even once he's been drastically surpassed by the SSJs. He's the strongest noobie in existence (to the point of having been the strongest mortal in existence for several decades) and therefore has unquantifiable potential. Any method of training that works for someone else should produce vastly superior results for Freeza at a lower intensity. The fact that Freeza has better training options means he should be even stronger than that.

[Skar]

You're assuming n00b gains only occur in the very weak and very talented, though. However, the expression is derived from being a newbie. The fact that he's never trained before and already accumulated such a high Battle Power suggests his gains will be unlike anything we've ever seen. Someone else used Goten and Trunks as counter-examples, but they're A) not members of Freeza's race and B) flat-out admit to having consistently sparred with each other since before they could remember. There's a reason Freeza repeatedly gets used as an example of the pinnacle of strength in the manga, even once he's been drastically surpassed by the SSJs. He's the strongest noobie in existence (to the point of having been the strongest mortal in existence for several decades) and therefore has unquantifiable potential. Any method of training that works for someone else should produce vastly superior results for Freeza at a lower intensity. The fact that Freeza has better training options means he should be even stronger than that.

What better training options does Freeza have? One of the reasons why Vegeta was always one step behind Goku was because Goku was just better at training. Vegeta trained just as hard and sometimes harder than Goku but he didn't have any of Goku's teachers. I still believe that Vegeta is more skilled when it comes to training than Freeza ever was since he was able to learn how to sense energy while apparently Freeza still doesn't know.

Also Freeza being considered the strongest mortal had nothing to do with his potential. He was considered the strongest mortal because of the strength he had at the time not because everyone assumed he had incredible potential. Freeza's potential was never brought up once and it ruins his backstory if we assume he had that much wasted potential. The only reason he recruited the Saiyans was because he wanted them to conquer planets for him. Instead of being afraid of them rebelling he could've trained for a few weeks and kept them under his control. On Namek, Goku gave him multiple opportunities to give up and leave. Freeza already took the cowardly way out by setting the planet to explode and then trying to attack Goku while his back was turned. Every choice Freeza made in the manga looks even worse if we take into consideration that he knew he had all his potential but never cared to use it.

[rereboy]

[
What better training options does Freeza have? One of the reasons why Vegeta was always one step behind Goku was because Goku was just better at training. Vegeta trained just as hard and sometimes harder than Goku but he didn't have any of Goku's teachers. I still believe that Vegeta is more skilled when it comes to training than Freeza ever was since he was able to learn how to sense energy while apparently Freeza still doesn't know.

Also Freeza being considered the strongest mortal had nothing to do with his potential. He was considered the strongest mortal because of the strength he had at the time not because everyone assumed he had incredible potential. Freeza's potential was never brought up once and it ruins his backstory if we assume he had that much wasted potential. The only reason he recruited the Saiyans was because he wanted them to conquer planets for him. Instead of being afraid of them rebelling he could've trained for a few weeks and kept them under his control. On Namek, Goku gave him multiple opportunities to give up and leave. Freeza already took the cowardly way out by setting the planet to explode and then trying to attack Goku while his back was turned. Every choice Freeza made in the manga looks even worse if we take into consideration that he knew he had all his potential but never cared to use it.

It's even worse when we realize that he knew about this and still went to Earth without training for a few months after Namek.