#NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

[TheGmGoken]

How come some half saiyans don't have tail?

Thats actually basic science genetics. Gohan got the tail trait. Goten-Trunks got the regular human butt trait.

Which makes very little sense in the context Toriyama painted with the tails being a "recessive gene".

Recessive gene is science...

[Hellspawn28]

I still don't get why people want DBZ to die when it was pretty much dead from 1997 - 2007? We didn't get any new movies and specials until 2008 since fans been asking for new stuff for years.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Recessive gene is science...

Oh, I wasn't talking about it being science or not. I was talking about the logic of who got a tail and who didn't with the gene being recessive.

[TheGmGoken]

Recessive gene is science...

Oh, I wasn't talking about it being science or not. I was talking about the logic of who got a tail and who didn't with the gene being recessive.

Long long long time ago. Ox King grandfather hooked up with a Gorilla-Monkey. That's why Ox King is so tall. And thus Chi Chi had the recessive trait. Thus Gohan have it.

Serious mode: When was it stated it was a recieve trait?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

In a moderately old Toriyama interview I believe, though I don't remember which one exactly. All I can remember is that Toriyama occasionally likes to pseudo-science things, like with the tidbit that Namekians live off water because of a special enzyme which allows them to extract nutrients from it.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I've seen many people complaining about nitpicky inconsistencies of Toriyama's recent ideas, but I don't give a fuck about inconsistencies for a shonen manga series, and I'm fine as long as the ideas are refreshing and plausible at least and don't clash with the main plot.

Except its hard to simply nitpick things that don't work within the summary of the plot itself. No story I know of has this privilege of being able to run off of so many plotholes and stand this strong; I'd give it credit for but that to me depends on the collective literary intelligence of the fanbase. But regardless, a good idea is only good when it works progressively with the story. Not pointlessly contradict or lazily overlap things out of writer's convience which is what makes it implausible.

I read/watch something else like pure literature or serious movies when I want consistency for fiction. It's a goddamn shonen manga series we're talking about. In short, fun > consistency to me.

The gap of suspending disbelief differs among everyone sure, but those who do watch the series for actual consistent progression and in-universe originality shouldn't be alienated by bad writing and this series seems to get away with it a lot post-prime.

Also, think about what we've got from Toei without Toriyama. I shudder to imagine how the new movies could have been if they'd been produced only by the Toei staff.

Toei is not one person, there are good outsource writers and bad ones. The ones who directed the older movies had good script writers for what they were, the one who wrote for BoG was one of the really bad ones - but FnF doesn't show it even making a difference anymore.

[Big Momma]

I've seen many people complaining about nitpicky inconsistencies of Toriyama's recent ideas, but I don't give a fuck about inconsistencies for a shonen manga series, and I'm fine as long as the ideas are refreshing and plausible at least and don't clash with the main plot.

Except its hard to simply nitpick things that don't work within the summary of the plot itself. No story I know of has this privilege of being able to run off of so many plotholes and stand this strong; I'd give it credit for but that to me depends on the collective literary intelligence of the fanbase. But regardless, a good idea is only good when it works progressively with the story. Not pointlessly contradict or lazily overlap things out of writer's convience which is what makes it implausible.

I disagree. I think a good story is good when it entertains the viewer, and the viewer enjoys watching it. What that depends on, be it strict consistency or not, is on the individual.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I've seen many people complaining about nitpicky inconsistencies of Toriyama's recent ideas, but I don't give a fuck about inconsistencies for a shonen manga series, and I'm fine as long as the ideas are refreshing and plausible at least and don't clash with the main plot.

Except its hard to simply nitpick things that don't work within the summary of the plot itself. No story I know of has this privilege of being able to run off of so many plotholes and stand this strong; I'd give it credit for but that to me depends on the collective literary intelligence of the fanbase. But regardless, a good idea is only good when it works progressively with the story. Not pointlessly contradict or lazily overlap things out of writer's convience which is what makes it implausible.

I disagree. I think a good story is good when it entertains the viewer, and the viewer enjoys watching it. What that depends on, be it strict consistency or not, is on the individual.

There are few people who can enjoy a story structured like this. No other series gets the same pass DBZ gets for bad writing, neglected plotholes, Plot rehashes, shallow character interactions, character favouritism,-Sue protagonists and in-universe logic hiccups. Not Naruto, Not one piece, not Bleach, but why DBZ?
I'm not saying we should turn against DBZ, but it only makes it seem legitamently overrated now if you have to ignore them just to remind yourself why you like the show. For me, I'm losing interest because it just doesn't feel like the series is going anywhere.

[Big Momma]

I disagree. I think a good story is good when it entertains the viewer, and the viewer enjoys watching it. What that depends on, be it strict consistency or not, is on the individual.

There are few people who can enjoy a story structured like this. No other series gets the same pass DBZ gets for bad writing, neglected plotholes, Plot rehashes, shallow character interactions, character favouritism,-Sue protagonists and in-universe logic hiccups. Not Naruto, Not one piece, not Bleach, but why DBZ?
I'm not saying we should turn against DBZ, but it only makes it seem legitamently overrated now if you have to ignore them just to remind yourself why you like the show. For me, I'm losing interest because it just doesn't feel like the series is going anywhere.[/quote]

I can only speak for myself, but I do give Naruto and One Piece those passes. Heck, Shippuden Movie 2: Bonds is one of my favorite of the Naruto movies, despite the fact that Sasuke is incredibly out-of-character in that film.

But, as far as I'm concerned, it's a case of unmet expectations. Toriyama doesn't take his series near as seriously as Oda and Kishimoto do. And yes, it shows. Whether that is bad and hinders your enjoyment is on you. I, personally, can look past things and enjoy them for what they are. Or, at the very least, I can go in knowing what to expect. Like I and others have said before, I can forego a some story inconsistency if I have fun watching it.

[TheGmGoken]

No other series gets the same pass DBZ gets for bad writing, neglected plotholes, Plot rehashes, shallow character interactions, character favouritism,-Sue protagonists and in-universe logic hiccups. Not Naruto, Not one piece, not Bleach, but why DBZ?

Gurren Lagann got a pretty huge fan base(favorite series of ALL TIME IMHO) and it's plot is just as basic if not more basic than DB. But the impact, how memorable experience it is, and how damn right enjoyable it is..excuses that. It's a reason why non anime fans try and watch other anime and hate it but watch Dbz and love it. It's because it's a fantastic experience.

[Lord Beerus]

For me, I'm losing interest because it just doesn't feel like the series is going anywhere.

Well, the series technically ended back in 1995. What we've been getting from Toriyama through interviews, manga and the movies have been supplemental material to me.

No other series gets the same pass DBZ gets for bad writing, neglected plotholes, Plot rehashes, shallow character interactions, character favouritism,-Sue protagonists and in-universe logic hiccups. Not Naruto, Not one piece, not Bleach, but why DBZ?

Gurren Lagann got a pretty huge fan base(favorite series of ALL TIME IMHO) and it's plot is just as basic if not more basic than DB. But the impact, how memorable experience it is, and how damn right enjoyable it is..excuses that. It's a reason why non anime fans try and watch other anime and hate it but watch Dbz and love it. It's because it's a fantastic experience.

TheGmGoken, you hit the nail right on the damn head. It's the pure level of entertainment and the awesome experience that Dragon Ball provides, that despite it flaws, make watching the show or reading the manga more than worthwhile.

[EXBadguy]

There are few people who can enjoy a story structured like this. No other series gets the same pass DBZ gets for bad writing, neglected plotholes, Plot rehashes, shallow character interactions, character favouritism,-Sue protagonists and in-universe logic hiccups. Not Naruto, Not one piece, not Bleach, but why DBZ?

Nah, man, you kidding me? One Piece gets way more passes than DBZ. Sure DBZ gets passes on that and I don't like it either, but One Piece gets WAAAY more. Just saiyan.

As for the topic in general, I agree with the people who say that Toriyama is slipping. Both BoG and FnF have inconsistencies that completely retcon plot points in the manga/anime series and most of the new designs suck and are too damn simple. I understand simple shit works, but these transformations(SSG and Gold Freeza) are really too simple for its own good. I'm starting to wish that Toriyama should stay the hell away from Dragon Ball and let somebody else take over, somebody that remembers the plot from the series, make a good story for a new movie, and have some worthy designs.

I wouldn't mind some inconsistencies, but the ones in BoG are really unforgivable.

[Lord Beerus]

I wouldn't mind some inconsistencies, but the ones in BoG are really unforgivable.

The only inconsistencies in BOG is Mai and Bulma's age. That's it.

Bulma's age inconsistency in that movie could be explained that she just flat out lied about her age, considering how historically vain she is about her appearance to other people. And it would really fit in with her character if she fibbed about her age. I mean, she freaked out at Goku when he mentioned how old she was after the 10 year time skip. And Mai... well... does it really matter?

[Hellspawn28]

There are few people who can enjoy a story structured like this. No other series gets the same pass DBZ gets for bad writing, neglected plotholes, Plot rehashes, shallow character interactions, character favouritism,-Sue protagonists and in-universe logic hiccups. Not Naruto, Not one piece, not Bleach, but why DBZ?

Some people seem to give Spawn comics the same criticism that DBZ has like Captain Logan on Youtube. I don't think DBZ is as badly written as some critics make it out to be. There's characters that are memorable, funny humor and good character development for characters like Piccolo, Gohan and Vegeta.

[NeoKING]

I disagree. I think a good story is good when it entertains the viewer, and the viewer enjoys watching it. What that depends on, be it strict consistency or not, is on the individual.

There are few people who can enjoy a story structured like this. No other series gets the same pass DBZ gets for bad writing, neglected plotholes, Plot rehashes, shallow character interactions, character favouritism,-Sue protagonists and in-universe logic hiccups. Not Naruto, Not one piece, not Bleach, but why DBZ?
I'm not saying we should turn against DBZ, but it only makes it seem legitamently overrated now if you have to ignore them just to remind yourself why you like the show. For me, I'm losing interest because it just doesn't feel like the series is going anywhere.

I honestly think the only other anime that gets the same infamous hall pass that DBZ gets is Saint Seiya. That series is the very essence of re-using plots and characters (and copycats of characters) but gets away with it by fans for some ... reason. (Hell, the sequel to Saint Seiya almost literally follows the same plot as the original series except the characters are back in time).

[JulieYBM]

I'd like to see Yama'uchi Shigeyasu direct the next film, especially given how his talented exploded after Doctor Slump (1997). Letting Tomioka Atsuhiro try his hand at writing a movie or TV series would also be nice to see.

[Hellspawn28]

I feel like DBZ hardly rehash things. The RR Army saga and Cell saga are very different from each other besides having androids. I think the old DBZ movies and GT rehash things worst then the manga did in my opinion.

[Faustus]

The one thing I feel tends to slip our minds in these sorts of conversations is that good writing doesn't mean the same thing everywhere. My set of criteria for constitutes either good or bad writing is highly variable across the board of fiction. Even the most egregious continuity error in Dragon Ball would not elicit as much of a groan of disappointment from me as would the slightest slip on the part of, say, Flaubert (random, I know, but that just so happens to be what I'm reading right now ). There isn't some be-all and end-all, Platonic ideal of Good Writing™ - consisting of "perfect" continuity, "perfect" exposition, "perfect" plotting, "perfect" characterization, or whatever else - to which every-piece-of-fiction-ever aspires, or should aspire. These are certainly good qualities for a piece of writing to have, but by no means do I expect them in all places to the same degree and in exact proportions.

There has to be some minimum standard for each of these, of course, but beyond this very basic requirement nearly everything will depend on how successfully the story does what it sets out to do. I find it's always better to evaluate fiction on the merits it professes. Dragon Ball, for its part, simply fails to hold up as a serious work of tight-knit plot and continuity. Let's just all be glad that's not what it's usually trying to be.

Big Momma I think puts it well when he says it's a matter of met or unmet expectations. Largely what I expect from Dragon Ball (and in effect what it's advertising) is thrilling martial arts, with a dollop of good fun and quirky humor. Sure, some consistency is always well-appreciated and often goes a long way, but ultimately something like this isn't going to lose a whole lot of points from me over this or that little goof in continuity, so long as I can still kick back and enjoy it just as well for the silly children's cartoon that it is, and more than which it seldom has pretensions of being.

Generally, I will take something seriously only insofar as it takes itself seriously. And Dragon Ball, for the most part, doesn't take itself seriously at all.

[rereboy]

Nah, man, you kidding me? One Piece gets way more passes than DBZ. Sure DBZ gets passes on that and I don't like it either, but One Piece gets WAAAY more. Just saiyan.

One Piece has much less plotholes and inconsistencies and it's very cleverly structured and has much better writing than Dragon Ball overall. So, no, it doesn't get more passes or even the same passes that Dragon Ball gets regarding that.

It's ok to not like One Piece, but to say that that regarding structure, consistency and writing it's worse than Dragon Ball, that doesn't make sense, imo.

[fexus]

Nah, man, you kidding me? One Piece gets way more passes than DBZ. Sure DBZ gets passes on that and I don't like it either, but One Piece gets WAAAY more. Just saiyan.

One Piece has much less plotholes and inconsistencies and it's very cleverly structured and has much better writing than Dragon Ball overall. So, no, it doesn't get more passes or even the same passes that Dragon Ball gets regarding that.

It's ok to not like One Piece, but to say that that regarding structure, consistency and writing it's worse than Dragon Ball, that doesn't make sense, imo.

When your series is named One Piece and have gone this long without even a hint on what that One Piece is, even calling it decent writing is a bit too much.