#NewRules According to Modern Toriyama

[rereboy]

When your series is named One Piece and have gone this long without even a hint on what that One Piece is, even calling it decent writing is a bit too much.

What it is, is something that has been known since chapter 1: it's the greatest treasure of the greatest pirate that ever lived, which is more than enough motivation for pirates around the world, including the protagonists.

What it exactly consists of is a mystery, and usually the presence of long lasting mysteries within a story are signs of well thought writing, not the other way around, like you seem to be implying.

One Piece can get somewhat bulky and some arcs can be too long, but that only means that some arcs could be more trimmed, not that the writing for the characters and plot isn't good.

Your conclusion of "long lasting mysteries" plus "long series" equals "less than decent writing" seems to be a pretty faulty conclusion to me. Following that logic, "A Song of Ice of Fire", the series of books that the TV Show "Game of Thrones" is based on, has less than decent writing, since it's a pretty long series which has long lasting mysteries ever since it started in 1996.

[fexus]

When your series is named One Piece and have gone this long without even a hint on what that One Piece is, even calling it decent writing is a bit too much.

What it is, is something that has been known since chapter 1: it's the greatest treasure of the greatest pirate that ever lived, which is more than enough motivation for pirates around the world, including the protagonists.

What it exactly consists of is a mystery, and usually the presence of long lasting mysteries within a story are signs of well thought writing, not the other way around, like you seem to be implying.

One Piece can get somewhat bulky and some arcs can be too long, but that only means that some arcs could be more trimmed, not that the writing for the characters and plot isn't good.

Your conclusion of "long lasting mysteries" plus "long series" equals "less than decent writing" seems to be a pretty faulty conclusion to me. Following that logic, "A Song of Ice of Fire", the series of books that the TV Show "Game of Thrones" is based on, has less than decent writing, since it's a pretty long series which has long lasting mysteries ever since it started in 1996.

What other thing do we know about One Piece? The very vague place where it seems to be located? Is that it?
The problem with One Piece is that it's too long. There are long mysteries and there too long mysteries. The mystery about One Piece is overstaying its welcome. There isn't anymore main plot progression, only side-plot that I myself don't really care about. The characters are also annoying as hell to me making any character development seems to be as wasting time when they could further the plot more. Also, if the plot could be trimmed, that does mean the plot itself isn't good.

[DragonBoxZTheMovies]

In a moderately old Toriyama interview I believe, though I don't remember which one exactly. All I can remember is that Toriyama occasionally likes to pseudo-science things, like with the tidbit that Namekians live off water because of a special enzyme which allows them to extract nutrients from it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was from one of the Super Exciting Guides. I remember that, at the time, the new in-universe tidbits within those books were a huge deal.

[rereboy]

What other thing do we know about One Piece? The very vague place where it seems to be located? Is that it?

We know enough about it for it to fulfill its purpose for now, aka motivate the characters and create a new great pirate age. The exact details of it, since its the final objective of the characters, will be revealed at the end of their journey, when its the most fitting time, turning that revelation into the payoff (plot-wise) for the end of the journey. If we knew everything about it before, there would be no mystery revealed when they get it, reducing greatly the payoff for the end of the journey.

The problem with One Piece is that it's too long. There are long mysteries and there too long mysteries. The mystery about One Piece is overstaying its welcome. There isn't anymore main plot progression, only side-plot that I myself don't really care about. The characters are also annoying as hell to me making any character development seems to be as wasting time when they could further the plot more. Also, if the plot could be trimmed, that does mean the plot itself isn't good.

All that means is that One Piece isn't perfect and the execution of its arcs and its plot could be more trimmed down to be more effective. You are just taking one aspect of the execution of One Piece that bothers you (being too long for your taste) and concluding that it means that the plot/writing isn't good. Like I stated, following that logic, even stuff like "A Song of Ice and Fire" would be considered to have poor writing. It simply doesn't make sense.

[fexus]

What other thing do we know about One Piece? The very vague place where it seems to be located? Is that it?

We know enough about it for it to fulfill its purpose for now, aka motivate the characters and create a new great pirate age. The exact details of it, since its the final objective of the characters, will be revealed at the end of their journey, when its the most fitting time, turning that revelation into the payoff (plot-wise) for the end of the journey. If we knew everything about it before, there would be no mystery revealed when they get it, reducing greatly the payoff for the end of the journey.

The problem with One Piece is that it's too long. There are long mysteries and there too long mysteries. The mystery about One Piece is overstaying its welcome. There isn't anymore main plot progression, only side-plot that I myself don't really care about. The characters are also annoying as hell to me making any character development seems to be as wasting time when they could further the plot more. Also, if the plot could be trimmed, that does mean the plot itself isn't good.

All that means is that One Piece isn't perfect and the execution of its arcs and its plot could be more trimmed down to be more effective. You are just taking one aspect of the execution of One Piece that bothers you (being too long for your taste) and concluding that it means that the plot/writing isn't good. Like I stated, following that logic, even stuff like "A Song of Ice and Fire" would be considered to have poor writing. It simply doesn't make sense.

So, nothing have been talked about One Piece besides it's the greatest treasure of all time. Within the 782 chapters, nothing was added to that. And you say that's good writing? It doesn't mean I want to know everything about it but knowing nothing isn't in anyway good.

Are you really comparing One Piece to those respective series? Really? You do know that those respective series doesn't have a main plot that's just thrown away for it to be continued way longer than it should have been.

[EXBadguy]

Even though some inconsistencies and plot holes are unforgivable, I also agree with the people that say it's up to the person to "soak it in" or not. So I don't really think there's not much of a thing called "passes". But I still don't like the modern Toriyama.

I wouldn't mind some inconsistencies, but the ones in BoG are really unforgivable.

The only inconsistencies in BOG is Mai and Bulma's age. That's it.

Don't forget about Goten and Trunks which they're ages 12 and 13 in the BoG movie. They're supposed to look older. I think it's one of the reasons why Toriyama gave them the cut in Resurrection "F", cuz he know he fucked up in that area.

Nah, man, you kidding me? One Piece gets way more passes than DBZ. Sure DBZ gets passes on that and I don't like it either, but One Piece gets WAAAY more. Just saiyan.

One Piece has much less plotholes and inconsistencies and it's very cleverly structured and has much better writing than Dragon Ball overall. So, no, it doesn't get more passes or even the same passes that Dragon Ball gets regarding that.

Granted, One Piece does have a better plot than Dragon Ball(from the beginning to Marineford though). But One Piece does have the same patterns. In most sagas, it has the same "Wait for Luffy" trope, same screaming, same crying long speech like "I'm gonna be king of the pirates" or "I can't lose, cuz I wanna be the greatest swordsman". That shit excused, but with all of the other anime that does it, it gets bashed.

I bet most of us won't be alive when Oda is finished with One Piece.

I feel like DBZ hardly rehash things. The RR Army saga and Cell saga are very different from each other besides having androids. I think the old DBZ movies and GT rehash things worst then the manga did in my opinion.

The only saga that seems to rehash things is the Freeza saga.

[rereboy]

So, nothing have been talked about One Piece besides it's the greatest treasure of all time. Within the 782 chapters, nothing was added to that. And you say that's good writing? It doesn't mean I want to know everything about it but knowing nothing isn't in anyway good.

I'm saying that we can't conclude based on that if it has good writing or not. One Piece being on the title and the audience not knowing everything about it yet doesn't tell us at all if the series has good writing or not. One Piece could be like that and be the greatest series ever, or it could be like that and be the worst series ever.

You are the one saying that it MUST have bad writing based on that. I merely pointed out that your conclusion doesn't make sense and explained to you why everything about One Piece hadn't been revealed yet.

Are you really comparing One Piece to those respective series? Really? You do know that those respective series doesn't have a main plot that's just thrown away for it to be continued way longer than it should have been.

I'm offering examples of series that would be considered to have weak writing if we followed your logic of "long lasting mysteries" plus "very long series" equals "bad writing". If you don't agree with your own conclusion when its applied to other series, then it means that your conclusion is faulty.

[fexus]

So, nothing have been talked about One Piece besides it's the greatest treasure of all time. Within the 782 chapters, nothing was added to that. And you say that's good writing? It doesn't mean I want to know everything about it but knowing nothing isn't in anyway good.

I'm saying that we can't conclude based on that if it has good writing or not. One Piece being on the title and the audience not knowing everything about it yet doesn't tell us at all if the series has good writing or not. One Piece could be like that and be the greatest series ever, or it could be like that and be the worst series ever.

You are the one saying that it MUST have bad writing based on that. I merely pointed out that your conclusion doesn't make sense and explained to you why everything about One Piece hadn't been revealed yet.

Are you really comparing One Piece to those respective series? Really? You do know that those respective series doesn't have a main plot that's just thrown away for it to be continued way longer than it should have been.

I'm offering examples of series that would be considered to have weak writing if we followed your logic of "long lasting mysteries" plus "very long series" equals "bad writing". If you don't agree with your own conclusion when its applied to other series, then it means that your conclusion is faulty.

We can conclude it from just the amount of chapter and the level of main plot progression that it has done. Which is basically nothing.

I never said long series are bad. I said that long series without any plot progression. Even from my first reply I said "When your series is named One Piece and have gone this long without even a hint on what that One Piece is". It doesn't imply anything that I hate or even thought that long running series was bad. From the "without a hint on what that One Piece is" it implied that One Piece doesn't have any real plot progression.

[rereboy]

We can conclude it from just the amount of chapter and the level of main plot progression that it has done. Which is basically nothing.

I never said long series are bad. I said that long series without any plot progression. Even from my first reply I said "When your series is named One Piece and have gone this long without even a hint on what that One Piece is". It doesn't imply anything that I hate or even thought that long running series was bad. From the "without a hint on what that One Piece is" it implied that One Piece doesn't have any real plot progression.

Your conclusion of "not knowing everything about One Piece" equals "no real real progression" is just as bad. Not to mention that trying to argue that there's no plot progression in One Piece is factually wrong. It's just slower because it has long arcs and many of them focus on a lot of things besides the end goal, but you somehow equal that to non-existing. And then conclude that the writing is bad... To each his own, I guess.

[fexus]

We can conclude it from just the amount of chapter and the level of main plot progression that it has done. Which is basically nothing.

I never said long series are bad. I said that long series without any plot progression. Even from my first reply I said "When your series is named One Piece and have gone this long without even a hint on what that One Piece is". It doesn't imply anything that I hate or even thought that long running series was bad. From the "without a hint on what that One Piece is" it implied that One Piece doesn't have any real plot progression.

Your conclusion of "not knowing everything about One Piece" equals "no real real progression" is just as bad. Not to mention that trying to argue that there's no plot progression in One Piece is factually wrong. It's just slower because it has long arcs and many of them focus on a lot of things besides the end goal, but you somehow equal that to non-existing. And then conclude that the writing is bad... To each his own, I guess.

Yeah, if there is no real story progression. It is considered bad. If it had 782 chapters and there's still no significant information about the main objective of the plot. It's also bad. But I respect your opinion and hope you have a nice day or night.

[rereboy]

Yeah, if there is no real story progression. It is considered bad. If it had 782 chapters and there's still no significant information about the main objective of the plot. It's also bad. But I respect your opinion and hope you have a nice day or night.

The main objective of the plot is for Luffy to become Pirate King. Getting One Piece is just the culmination of that voyage and the symbol of him replacing the previous Pirate King. As such, the story is about Luffy's voyage, and, obviously, there's crazy amount of progress regarding his voyage and his progress towards Pirate King and One Piece. You don't seem to understand this and believe that revealing what One Piece is the whole plot just because it's called One Piece. Like I said, it doesn't make sense. But, to each his own, like I said.

[fexus]

Yeah, if there is no real story progression. It is considered bad. If it had 782 chapters and there's still no significant information about the main objective of the plot. It's also bad. But I respect your opinion and hope you have a nice day or night.

The main objective of the plot is for Luffy to become Pirate King. Getting One Piece is just the culmination of that voyage and the symbol of him replacing the previous Pirate King. As such, the story is about Luffy's voyage, and, obviously, there's crazy amount of progress regarding his voyage and his progress towards Pirate King and One Piece. You don't seem to understand this and believe that revealing what One Piece is the whole plot just because it's called One Piece. Like I said, it doesn't make sense. But, to each his own, like I said.

Revealing One Piece isn't the whole plot, it's the main plot.

[rereboy]

Revealing One Piece isn't the whole plot, it's the main plot.

Like I just told you, anyone who has read the manga, or even the first volume, knows (or should know) that the main plot is the journey of Luffy towards his goal of becoming Pirate King. Even in the first chapter of the manga it's stated, quite clearly, that Luffy's objective is becoming Pirate King and that's his goal, with One Piece being just the culmination of him being Pirate King. One Piece is just one of the final pieces of that journey. Your conclusion that it's the main plot just because it's the title is as erroneous as your previous conclusions.

[fexus]

Revealing One Piece isn't the whole plot, it's the main plot.

Like I just told you, anyone who has read the manga, or even the first volume, knows (or should know) that the main plot is the journey of Luffy towards his goal of becoming Pirate King. Even in the first chapter of the manga it's stated, quite clearly, that Luffy's objective is becoming Pirate King and that's his goal, with One Piece being just the culmination of him being Pirate King. One Piece is just one of the final pieces of that journey. Your conclusion that it's the main plot just because it's the title is as erroneous as your previous conclusions.

Welp, looks like you're right. No wonder Oda can continue this money making machine.

[Lord Beerus]

I wouldn't mind some inconsistencies, but the ones in BoG are really unforgivable.

The only inconsistencies in BOG is Mai and Bulma's age. That's it.

Don't forget about Goten and Trunks which they're ages 12 and 13 in the BoG movie. They're supposed to look older. I think it's one of the reasons why Toriyama gave them the cut in Resurrection "F", cuz he know he fucked up in that area.

That's Goku at age 15. So... yeah.

[TheGmGoken]

Spoiler:

That's Goku at age 15. So... yeah.

Makes sense for Trunks too. Vegeta ain't exactly the tallest man in the universe. Trunks got unlucky. Gohan was also very short as he's shorter than Krillin in cell games (after he beat cell). It's just Gohan got taller as a SSJ and SSJ2 xD. Not to mention Chi Chi was short too.

Z fighters got the short gene.

[soulnova]

The thing is that we already have manga material that shows 13-14 year old Trunks... and he looks like a normal teenager for his age. Toriyama can and has drawn young teenager without a problem.

If we see them in any new media, hopefully Goten might have started changing his hair already.

[TheGmGoken]

The thing is that we already have manga material that shows 13-14 year old Trunks... and he looks like a normal teenager for his age. Toriyama can and has drawn young teenager without a problem.

If we see them in any new media, hopefully Goten might have started changing his hair already.

We won't. Because it's a new rule (#NewRules!) that Goten and Trunks aren't allowed because they're too reckless. They're not allowed to be have the ability to sense because fuck them. I doubt we'll see them in any new media.

[Lord Beerus]

Spoiler:

That's Goku at age 15. So... yeah.

Makes sense for Trunks too. Vegeta ain't exactly the tallest man in the universe. Trunks got unlucky. Gohan was also very short as he's shorter than Krillin in cell games (after he beat cell). It's just Gohan got taller as a SSJ and SSJ2 xD. Not to mention Chi Chi was short too.

Z fighters got the short gene.

The height of the characters remains one of the great issues and mysteries of Dragon Ball. It's never been consistent.

The thing is that we already have manga material that shows 13-14 year old Trunks... and he looks like a normal teenager for his age. Toriyama can and has drawn young teenager without a problem.

If we see them in any new media, hopefully Goten might have started changing his hair already.

We won't. Because it's a new rule (#NewRules!) that Goten and Trunks aren't allowed because they're too reckless. They're not allowed to be have the ability to sense because fuck them. I doubt we'll see them in any new media.

Don't rule out Goten and Trunks being in future Dragon Ball media. Would you have ever predicted fucking Master Roshi would be play a supporting role in a modern Dragon Ball Z movie? I sure as hell didn't.

[jcogginsa]

Nah, man, you kidding me? One Piece gets way more passes than DBZ. Sure DBZ gets passes on that and I don't like it either, but One Piece gets WAAAY more. Just saiyan.

One Piece has much less plotholes and inconsistencies and it's very cleverly structured and has much better writing than Dragon Ball overall. So, no, it doesn't get more passes or even the same passes that Dragon Ball gets regarding that.

It's ok to not like One Piece, but to say that that regarding structure, consistency and writing it's worse than Dragon Ball, that doesn't make sense, imo.

When your series is named One Piece and have gone this long without even a hint on what that One Piece is, even calling it decent writing is a bit too much.

That's because what One Piece actually is, isn't relevent. What matters is the journey to get there. the Main character even states this outright: He doesn't want to know where One Piece is, because knowing where to go will ruin the adventure. He wants to have fun, meet new friends, eat meat.

Meanwhile, the other major plots (The blank Century, the tyranny of the World Government, Blackbeard's ambition) get relatively frequent developement